Curran: Pats $18 to $20 Million under cap

[crowell33]

Click the link to Miguels cap page. That will tell you everythig you need to know.

Does dead money count against the 2011 cap? Are there exceptions that will not count towards the 2011 cap? Is the cap $120 Million or $123 Million in 2011? Why does Albert Breer say that the cap "will feel like a $130 Million dollar" cap ?

Where on Miguels page do I find " everything you need to know " ?

Thanks.

 

[DaBruinz]

Nothing has come out regarding how dead money will be treated. Rumors have persisted that dead money from 2010 that normally would be debited against 2011 would disregarded. But there has been no confirmation on that.

As for Albert Breer and Curran. They stopped being good reporters a long time ago. So, unless they are regurgitating something you hear from another source like Schefter or LaConfora or Reiss, take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

[The Scrizz]

Even if you have a team's cap number it takes forever and a day to figure out what kind of shape they're in.

Take San Diego. The Chargers have about seven starters and a ton of backups who will be free agents (including Floyd, Jackson, Weddle, Cooper, Burnett, Clary, Cesaire and Sproles), as well as a couple of key restricted free agents (like Applewhite and Mike Tolbert) . Hell I can't even find a page that says how many legitimate NFL players they have under contract. So they're way under but they have to spend a ton to field a legitimate team. Is that good shape? I don't have the time to really figure it out.

Very good point.

Even the Jets can free up some space fairly easily by converting some of the Sanchize's salary to bonus. It's like that when you have a bottom 3rd QB with a SEVENTEEN MILLION DOLLAR CAP HIT.

What an absolute joke of a franchise.

 

[Ring 6]

Nothing has come out regarding how dead money will be treated. Rumors have persisted that dead money from 2010 that normally would be debited against 2011 would disregarded. But there has been no confirmation on that.

As for Albert Breer and Curran. They stopped being good reporters a long time ago. So, unless they are regurgitating something you hear from another source like Schefter or LaConfora or Reiss, take what they say with a grain of salt.

I think those rumors have only come from fans of teams that are looking like they will have cap problems.
It seems unfathomable that they will simply wipe out cap charges that were carried forward in the prior CBA
It would give a retroactive competitive advantage, something which goes against every decision the NFL has ever made.

 

[jsull87]

OK It seems that (roughly and once again someone correct me if i have this wrong:

How Much have we spent? $110,115,934 (this is a rough total and includes Logan Mankins and people like Page so i don't know how realistic that is)
How many players have we signed? I don't know this one some say 45 but i have used miguel's numbers (in saying that he has included 51 but if you project our rookies to make the roster then this would all change)
Who do we have to sign and what will their hit be (round about)? Mankins,Mcgown and the rookies (am i missing anyone?)
How much will it cost to sign our rookies? $8,160,000 (using last years respective rookie salary numbers for equivalent possitions)
Where realistically can money be saved?

Branch $1,795,000 (Probably not but)
Sanders $2,495,000
Kaczur $3,095,000
BJGE $1,843,120 (if someone gives us a 2nd and we don't match their price)
Page $1,968,120 ( I thought he was a FA but Miguel has him here)
Mankins $10,105,000 (hopefully we sign him for a long term deal)


From there How much do we have left over for free agency? After singing the rookies? about 12 million it seems (this number will grow if we cut/restructure kaczur and trade/sign Mankins)

So like one of the posters in the other forum i can see us in a pretty solid possition to sign some cap casualties from other teams once this is all said and done. If i have missed anything just let us know. The only reason i mentioned branch is if we sign someone like Rice/Holmes for a big contract and to be a number 1 reciever then we could save money by letting Branch go.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

OK It seems that (roughly and once again someone correct me if i have this wrong:

How Much have we spent? $110,115,934 (this is a rough total and includes Logan Mankins and people like Page so i don't know how realistic that is)
How many players have we signed? I don't know this one some say 45 but i have used miguel's numbers (in saying that he has included 51 but if you project our rookies to make the roster then this would all change)
Who do we have to sign and what will their hit be (round about)? Mankins,Mcgown and the rookies (am i missing anyone?)
How much will it cost to sign our rookies? $8,160,000 (using last years respective rookie salary numbers for equivalent possitions)
Where realistically can money be saved?

Branch $1,795,000 (Probably not but)
Sanders $2,495,000
Kaczur $3,095,000
BJGE $1,843,120 (if someone gives us a 2nd and we don't match their price)
Page $1,968,120 ( I thought he was a FA but Miguel has him here)
Mankins $10,105,000 (hopefully we sign him for a long term deal)


From there How much do we have left over for free agency? After singing the rookies? about 12 million it seems (this number will grow if we cut/restructure kaczur and trade/sign Mankins)

So like one of the posters in the other forum i can see us in a pretty solid possition to sign some cap casualties from other teams once this is all said and done. If i have missed anything just let us know. The only reason i mentioned branch is if we sign someone like Rice/Holmes for a big contract and to be a number 1 reciever then we could save money by letting Branch go.

We have 76 players signed or under tender. Only the top 51 count until the season commences. Then the top 53 - the roster - counts. We will likely have close to 90 players signed - at least that is the rumored new TC roster size - in a week or so. Still, only the top 51 will count. Rookies will begin to replace some of the guys on the current top 51 once they get signed to their actual deals. Right now they only count as first year minimum salary so tend to be beneath the 51. As a player replaces someone on the 51 his impact is adjusted to the difference between himself and the guy he replaces.

We can free up several million or more in simple restructures. Most teams are always in position to do at least that. Kaczur will likely be restructured as that was rumored before the lockout. Sanders won't likely be going anywhere since Bill was pretty clear post draft that Raz will be working exclusively as a corner out of the gate.

If you wish to be taken seriously, Branch isn't going anywhere whether we sign a FA WR or not. He and Welker represent consistent comfort for the GOAT. I doubt we sign a FA WR unless one is hanging around after the first week of FA and just represents too much potential value going forward. It's not likely any will represent sufficient value in the present given the situation. This isn't an easy offense to assimilate into. Talent alone won't get it done. The most necessary skillset a player must possess to make it here lies between his ears. BJGE isn't going anywhere unless someone offers him a long term deal as a featured back, and that is less likely to happen under present circumstances. They will probably make an effort to retain Price at a lesser cost than his voided tender since they probably would not have tendered him at that level unless they wanted to retain him. Mankins tag may be recalculated under new rules if in fact as reported the owners did request and receive the right to break the OL into distinct positions.

The rookie cap should be lower than in past seasons since their deals are capped at a first round savings of 40-50%. And again, their deal will impact Miguel's estimated cap less the player already counted whom they will then replace.

The NEP are presently roughly estimated to be $6-9M under the cap before any adjustments or restructures that could easily net them another $7-10M in space. They do not NEED to sign anyone of substance although they may choose to sign Light if a team like KC doesn't make him an offer that exceeds his value or a couple of additional FA beyond UDFA's (who will not impact the cap dramatically or at all until or unless they make the roster).

The Patriots are not currently $18-20M under the cap, but they can be or close to it if they need to and without actually cutting anyone presently on the roster.

 

[BlueThunder]

It's going to be fun watching the J-E-T-S scramble and lose top talent and then when injuries hit, be forced to rely on unproven backups to plug their holes....sooner or later their creative bookkeeping to stay under the cap had to catch up to them

 

[DaBruinz]

The Patriots are not currently $18-20M under the cap, but they can be or close to it if they need to and without actually cutting anyone presently on the roster.

Mo, I agree with this.. What I wonder is where the Pats stand in regards to the Cash Floor... That is how much money they will HAVE to spend. And that is where Curran and Breer might be getting that the Pats are "18-20 million" under the cap. Which we know is not correct.

But, can we really expect those two not to get the Salary Cap and Cash Floor mixed up???

 

[jmt57]

Does dead money count against the 2011 cap? Are there exceptions that will not count towards the 2011 cap? Is the cap $120 Million or $123 Million in 2011? Why does Albert Breer say that the cap "will feel like a $130 Million dollar" cap ?

Where on Miguels page do I find " everything you need to know " ?

Thanks.

I'd really like to know exactly what the "feels like" term is referring to as well.

I believe it may have to do with LTBE/NLTBE bonuses in player's contracts, but I'm not sure if that is correct or not. I don't think it has to do with benefits because those are already figured in ($140 million minus $20 million benefits equals $120 million cap), correct?

 

[townes]

The most interesting thing to me about this situation is that if Belichik was looking at the possibility of chaos that he may see a golden opportunity to go after some players we may not be thinking of but that he believes can be had in the confusion. If so the Patriots could end up being serious players in a wild free agent market and may be able to make some serious improvements to a team that is already final four caliber. I'm hoping this is the case because io do believe there are alot of teams out there that are in somewhat disarray and and may be focused upon getting s certain piece to upgrade while not paying enough attention to their own free agents. Teams like the Cards and Vikes who need to resolve QB may not be psaying the necessary attention to their own guys, and the same could go for all the teams with new regimes in place. It will really be interesting to see who does what in the coming free agency and how the patriots play it. This may well be a golden opportunity for them and I would love to see them be really aggressive in taking advantage of it.


I'll leave the numbers to everyone else as they are difficult to really understand without the full information. Miguel does a better job providing them than anyone else I'm aware of around the league and we are really lucky for that, but even with the insight he provides they are still to elusive for me to speculate on. priority 1 is Mankins but that could be resolved with a tag for the time being, after that Light is my second priority as i think the 2 signings would guarantee them one of the best OL's in football for the next couple of years. After that I would love to see them go after Sydney Rice, who could take their WR corps to the next level. A pass rusher like Ray Edwards would be another bigger name target but i don't know if he fits what Belichik wants or whether they want to go back to the well after failing with Colvin and Thomas as big name pass rush specialists.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

The most interesting thing to me about this situation is that if Belichik was looking at the possibility of chaos that he may see a golden opportunity to go after some players we may not be thinking of but that he believes can be had in the confusion. If so the Patriots could end up being serious players in a wild free agent market and may be able to make some serious improvements to a team that is already final four caliber. I'm hoping this is the case because io do believe there are alot of teams out there that are in somewhat disarray and and may be focused upon getting s certain piece to upgrade while not paying enough attention to their own free agents. Teams like the Cards and Vikes who need to resolve QB may not be psaying the necessary attention to their own guys, and the same could go for all the teams with new regimes in place. It will really be interesting to see who does what in the coming free agency and how the patriots play it. This may well be a golden opportunity for them and I would love to see them be really aggressive in taking advantage of it.


I'll leave the numbers to everyone else as they are difficult to really understand without the full information. Miguel does a better job providing them than anyone else I'm aware of around the league and we are really lucky for that, but even with the insight he provides they are still to elusive for me to speculate on. priority 1 is Mankins but that could be resolved with a tag for the time being, after that Light is my second priority as i think the 2 signings would guarantee them one of the best OL's in football for the next couple of years. After that I would love to see them go after Sydney Rice, who could take their WR corps to the next level. A pass rusher like Ray Edwards would be another bigger name target but i don't know if he fits what Belichik wants or whether they want to go back to the well after failing with Colvin and Thomas as big name pass rush specialists.

I share your wishful thinking with the caveat that chaos did not work out well in Jurassic Park

 

[NEPats1]

Can someone explain to me what "dead money" is? I keep reading Jets fans say they are fine because of this:

As long as the dead money from the players we cut (Taylor,Jenkins,Gholston,etc) doesnt carry over .. than we should be at around 100mil.

I'm not well versed in NFL salary info so any clarity is appreciated!

 

[DaBruinz]

Can someone explain to me what "dead money" is? I keep reading Jets fans say they are fine because of this:




I'm not well versed in NFL salary info so any clarity is appreciated!

Dead money is any bonus amortization that is left remaining on a player's contract when they are cut.

For cap purposes, bonuses are spread evenly (amortized) over the life of the contract. So if a player gets a 10M bonus on a 4 year contract, there is 2.5 million assigned to the salary cap each year. If a player is cut before their contract runs out, the remaining amortization, gets put entirely against the salary cap. So, if a player is cut after 2 years, the team has 5 million in dead money that is placed against the cap.

Hope that helps.


OH.. As for the Jets fans, there have been rumors since the start of negotiations that any dead money from players cut during 2010 and before the start of 2011, will be ignored for the 2010 season. If that is the case, the Jets will save quite a bit of money since they cut Jason Taylor, Kris Jenkins, Vernon Gholston, and Damien Woody.

The problem is that it's just rumors.. There has be nothing mentioned on how the dead money will be handled.

Also, if you have questions about the Cap, go to the following:

http://www.patscap.com

A fellow poster named Miguel runs that site and has a very comprehensive FAQ about the salary cap.

 

[Rob0729]

Dead money is any bonus amortization that is left remaining on a player's contract when they are cut.

For cap purposes, bonuses are spread evenly (amortized) over the life of the contract. So if a player gets a 10M bonus on a 4 year contract, there is 2.5 million assigned to the salary cap each year. If a player is cut before their contract runs out, the remaining amortization, gets put entirely against the salary cap. So, if a player is cut after 2 years, the team has 5 million in dead money that is placed against the cap.

Hope that helps.


OH.. As for the Jets fans, there have been rumors since the start of negotiations that any dead money from players cut during 2010 and before the start of 2011, will be ignored for the 2010 season. If that is the case, the Jets will save quite a bit of money since they cut Jason Taylor, Kris Jenkins, Vernon Gholston, and Damien Woody.

The problem is that it's just rumors.. There has be nothing mentioned on how the dead money will be handled.

Also, if you have questions about the Cap, go to the following:

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2011 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

A fellow poster named Miguel runs that site and has a very comprehensive FAQ about the salary cap.

Yeah, Jason (the Jets' Miguel) continues to float that rumor that the dead money won't be carried forward although that part of the CBA is done and no one is reporting it in there.

Many media sources are reporting there will be an one player salary cap exemption of $3 million for 2011 (rumor it drops to $1.5 million in 2012) in the new CBA. The problem with that is the $3 million must come out of the $21 million allocated for players' benefits. The question is whether teams will use that exemption to get an $123 million cap and shortchange the players on their team $3 million in benefits. But the fact all this has been reported multiple times and no one is even hinting that the dead money from players cut in 2010 will be forgiven tells me that Jason at NYJetsCap got bad info on the dead money exemption.

Personally, unlike Miguel, Jason is doing his cap page as wishful thinking rather than the facts of the Jets' cap. There is no reason why he shouldn't report David Harris' cap number especially since Harris signed his franchise tender before the lockout. Jason claims that he won't include it because the Jets intend to give Harris a long term deal, but the franchise money counts against their cap until they do. There is no "we are going to get a long term deal done with our franchised player" cap exemption.

 

[The Scrizz]

Yeah, Jason (the Jets' Miguel) continues to float that rumor that the dead money won't be carried forward although that part of the CBA is done and no one is reporting it in there.

Many media sources are reporting there will be an one player salary cap exemption of $3 million for 2011 (rumor it drops to $1.5 million in 2012) in the new CBA. The problem with that is the $3 million must come out of the $21 million allocated for players' benefits. The question is whether teams will use that exemption to get an $123 million cap and shortchange the players on their team $3 million in benefits. But the fact all this has been reported multiple times and no one is even hinting that the dead money from players cut in 2010 will be forgiven tells me that Jason at NYJetsCap got bad info on the dead money exemption.

Personally, unlike Miguel, Jason is doing his cap page as wishful thinking rather than the facts of the Jets' cap. There is no reason why he shouldn't report David Harris' cap number especially since Harris signed his franchise tender before the lockout. Jason claims that he won't include it because the Jets intend to give Harris a long term deal, but the franchise money counts against their cap until they do. There is no "we are going to get a long term deal done with our franchised player" cap exemption.

Yeah, I basically figured out that's how the jetscap page had such a low figure a few pages ago. But really, if you're going to forgive the dead money of a few teams, you almost have to allow the other teams to make cuts with no dead-money concerns, meaning the Pats could cut Kazcur and get the full 4.4M cap hit off of their cap instead of just the 3M they'd save by cutting him right now.

Obviously this would cause even more chaos than there is going to be already which is why I don't see it happening and why I see the Jets losing at minimum one of their starting WR and 1 of their starting CB, to go along with their best DE, and their 4th WR and best returner.

 

[mgteich]

You analysis seems fine. using Miguel's sheet I have us at $112M, inluding Mankins and Green-Ellis, but not including Page (Deaderick moves up to 51). So lets look at our base case.

BASE CASE
----------
START AT $11 MILLION UNDER
1) FREE AGENTS FOR NET COST OF $5M (a couple of minor adds or re-signs plus jags).
2) $6M 2011 CAP COST FOR PLAYER 52, 53, ROOKS, INJURY FUND, PRACTICE SQUAD.
3) ADJUST FOR CAP ADJUSTMENTS AND/OR EXEMPTIONS, if any apply to the patriots.

=========================================================
SOURCES OF ADDED MONIES
1) Restructures and/or extensions as you mention. Mankins could be one of these, or not.
2) Player cuts, remembering that we are looking at net cap savings
3) Cap adjustmusts that affect the patriots (feels like $130M instead of $123 they say).
==========================================================
BOTTOM LINE
The patriots will be free do whatever they need to do. What we agree with those decisions is another matter entirely. For example, we might sign Faulk, White, G. Warren and Page. This could easily be paid for with current monies or with restructures. Obviously, Belichick would look for opportiunties for better options.

.

The NEP are presently roughly estimated to be $6-9M under the cap before any adjustments or restructures that could easily net them another $7-10M in space. They do not NEED to sign anyone of substance although they may choose to sign Light if a team like KC doesn't make him an offer that exceeds his value or a couple of additional FA beyond UDFA's (who will not impact the cap dramatically or at all until or unless they make the roster).

The Patriots are not currently $18-20M under the cap, but they can be or close to it if they need to and without actually cutting anyone presently on the roster.

 

[DaBruinz]

You analysis seems fine. using Miguel's sheet I have us at $112M, inluding Mankins and Green-Ellis, but not including Page (Deaderick moves up to 51). So lets look at our base case.

BASE CASE
----------
START AT $11 MILLION UNDER
1) FREE AGENTS FOR NET COST OF $5M (a couple of minor adds or re-signs plus jags).
2) $6M 2011 CAP COST FOR PLAYER 52, 53, ROOKS, INJURY FUND, PRACTICE SQUAD.
3) ADJUST FOR CAP ADJUSTMENTS AND/OR EXEMPTIONS, if any apply to the patriots.

=========================================================
SOURCES OF ADDED MONIES
1) Restructures and/or extensions as you mention. Mankins could be one of these, or not.
2) Player cuts, remembering that we are looking at net cap savings
3) Cap adjustmusts that affect the patriots (feels like $130M instead of $123 they say).
==========================================================
BOTTOM LINE
The patriots will be free do whatever they need to do. What we agree with those decisions is another matter entirely. For example, we might sign Faulk, White, G. Warren and Page. This could easily be paid for with current monies or with restructures. Obviously, Belichick would look for opportiunties for better options.

Just ran some rough calculations and the Pats, right now, are at about 80.5 million in planned cash spending. That means they have to spend a minimum of 27.5 million in CASH to get to the Cash Floor.

Another item we've not talked about is LTBE and NLTBE bonuses and whether or not they will affect the "Cash Floor". My guess is that they will only affect the cash floor in the following year, similar to the how the Salary cap is affected.

 

[mgteich]

I have never worried about the patriots and a floor. First does this floor include mankins? Second, the unamortized rookie bonuses will eat up a bit of the cash floor. If we are close to the cap ceiling, then restructurings would be necessary in order to meet the floor.

Just ran some rough calculations and the Pats, right now, are at about 80.5 million in planned cash spending. That means they have to spend a minimum of 27.5 million in CASH to get to the Cash Floor.

Another item we've not talked about is LTBE and NLTBE bonuses and whether or not they will affect the "Cash Floor". My guess is that they will only affect the cash floor in the following year, similar to the how the Salary cap is affected.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Just ran some rough calculations and the Pats, right now, are at about 80.5 million in planned cash spending. That means they have to spend a minimum of 27.5 million in CASH to get to the Cash Floor.

Another item we've not talked about is LTBE and NLTBE bonuses and whether or not they will affect the "Cash Floor". My guess is that they will only affect the cash floor in the following year, similar to the how the Salary cap is affected.

Math was never my strong suit DB but the Pats by my rough caculations based on Miguel's page are at over $80M in salary alone (for the top 51). Add to that $5M in roster bonuses and $5M in workout bonuses (because rumor has it the players are demanding those be paid in full) and you're up to $90M. Then add in the $10M in deferred signing bonus that Brady is due this August...and you're over $100M before we sign anyone else...including our rookies. I think we will have no trouble making the $108M cash spending floor and won't have to do anything silly in order to...

 

[Ring 6]

I have never worried about the patriots and a floor. First does this floor include mankins? Second, the unamortized rookie bonuses will eat up a bit of the cash floor. If we are close to the cap ceiling, then restructurings would be necessary in order to meet the floor.

I think this can become a big concern. There have been years when the Patriots cash has been well over the cap and years where it has been far under, even when they are up against the cap.
I forsee a serious possibility that teams are going to be in a situation where it will be difficult, if not impossible to get up to the cash floor without exceeding the cap.
10% difference isnt much when you start looking at signing bonus amortizaion and dead money.