Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[RayClay]

That's all you take from that?

"Parcells was famous"?

Really?

Well, he was a famous football coach. I was thrilled and shocked they landed him too.

However, you've as much as said he was the turning point, the reason Kraft bought the team Really?

In 1985, Kraft bought an option on the parcel adjacent to the stadium. The option would be the first in a series of steps which would culminate nearly a decade later in his eventual ownership of the team. Later, in 1988, Kraft outbid several competitors to buy the stadium out of bankruptcy court from Billy Sullivan for $25 million. The purchase included the stadium's lease to the Patriots – which would later provide Kraft leverage in purchasing the team.

In 1992, St. Louis businessman James Orthwein purchased the Patriots from Victor Kiam

Did he prophecy Parcells would one day coach the team, like a vision? or did he just have a thing for awful stadiums and racetracks and parcels of land in hick towns far south of Boston?

Parcells is a HOFer not because of his accomplishments with the Patriots, or his fame and name recognition previous, but because of his part in Krafts magical dream where one day Tuna would beget the Messiah BB, and BB would beget Brady, fulfilling the prophecy?

Why not judge him by his actual record and screwing the team before the big game is part of his legacy (like Fairbanks) no matter the reason.

 

[Triumph]

Did he prophecy Parcells would one day coach the team, like a vision? or did he just have a thing for awful stadiums and racetracks and parcels of land in hick towns far south of Boston?

.

Youve answered your own question.

It was an omen that someday over the rainbow, Bill Parcells would be HC and GM of the NE Pats. Kraft bought a team that lost money and 20 plus years later is the 3rd richest sports franchise in the world.

All thanks to Bill Parcel.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Despise the guy for the way he bolted NE after the SB, but I have to give credit where it's due and the man is one of the best football minds to grace the gridiron IMO. As fans, we owe almost everything for what the Pats are today to Parcells, almost as much as we do to Kraft, BB, and Brady. So yes, but not yet.

 

[Triumph]

So in other words, you have provided me with evidence that Parcells had a direct effect on Kraft buying the team. He refused to buy it two previous times, but decided at that point to make at the time a record purchase. The popularity that Parcells brought made it (at least in part) the right time to pull the trigger.

As for Kraft wanting to buy the team, I never said he may have wanted to own the Patriots, but he has other chances to buy it for far less than he did. But he didn't do it. He is a businessman and he had to feel he would get a return on his investment.

At this point, there really isn't much left to argue. Neither of us are going to change each other's mind.

No, I provided an article that you ignored. Kraft thought Parcells was the type of person that he tried to avoid. Read the article.


Youre unaware to the fact that Orthwein had a 160 million dollar offer from his minority partner to buy the Pats and move the team to Hartford.



Again, Kraft bought the team so (1) it would stay in Mass (2) because he owned land and the stadium in Foxboro. In his own words before that fat arrogant Tuna was around, Kraft said he wanted to contol all revenue streams.





An investor and former co-owner of the New England Patriots missed a deadline last week that has put in question his ability to purchase the football team and move it to Hartford.


Fran Murray, the Philadelphia-based investigator was unable to provide a $20 million letter of credit and a $140 million financing plan to the National Football League for an expansion team in St. Louis. Murray has said his plan would allow current Patriots owner James B. Orthwein to sell the team to him so Murray could move it to Connecticut, thus freeing Orthwein to own a team in his hometown of St. Louis.
Last month. the Connecticut legislature approved a $250 million bond …

 

[townes]

They are the best of the last 10. They are only the best of the last 20 because of those 10. We could call them the best of the last 25 and include Berry, Rust and McPherson, but thats kinda silly.
The 4 years of 32-32 dont weigh heavily on why they were the best of the last X years.

I disagree with the 'changed the culture' argument, because the culture after Tuna was awful. I dont think you change the culture, have it change then change again and take credit for the 3rd incarnation.

1) I'm almost certain they are the best of the last 20 speaking solely in terms of achievments, but i'll try to go check. The only team that should be in the discussion is the Steelers, as the Patriots have a clear SB edge on everyone else

2) We could go back to Rust, MacPherson et al but imo the addition of Parcells and Bledsoe was a seminal moment for the Patriots and once saved from St. Louis they turned the corner completely and have been doing exceptionally well ever since.

3) Simply saying Parcells was 32-32 is really being disengenuous imo as he took over the worst franchise in football and had to do major work to turn them into a SB team. He had a short run but there is no question he turned the franchise from a joke to a SB contender.

4) I agree the culture reverted under Carroll but think the Kraft's learned a great deal during the previous 6 years and understood that the way coaches like Parcells and Belichik ran teams was the way to go, and to their credit they gave up what was needed to go and get Belichik.

5) I don't think Parcells deserves credit for everything that took place after him, in fact very little of it, but what he does deserve credit for has ruminated through the years as even under carroll they were winners, and many of the leaders on those teams and future Belichik SB teams were Parcells guys.


6) A statistical argument cannot be made for Parcells being in the Patriots HOF, the argument is completely contextual, some believe he was a key player in their turnaround and others not so much.

 

[RayClay]

Youve answered your own question.

It was an omen that someday over the rainbow, Bill Parcells would be HC and GM of the NE Pats. Kraft bought a team that lost money and 20 plus years later is the 3rd richest sports franchise in the world.

All thanks to Bill Parcel.

I believe that, even as a youth, he willed the team to succeed through the sixties, knowing his fate was to be a small, but essential part of the perfect dynasty.

From his WIKI

Prior to his sophomore year in high school, the Parcells family moved a few miles north to the town of Oradell, where he attended River Dell Regional High School. While he was at River Dell, he was routinely mistaken for another boy named Bill. As he had always disliked his given name of Duane, he decided to adopt Bill as his nickname.[6][7]

Yes, in a foreshadowing of future fullfillment of the prophecy, Duane adopted the name "Bill". Not Harry or Tom, but Bill.

Coincidence that he adopted the name of the future savior for no good reason? I think not!
Was there really "another boy named Bill?"

 

[JoeSixPat]

Well, he was a famous football coach. I was thrilled and shocked they landed him too.

However, you've as much as said he was the turning point, the reason Kraft bought the team Really?



Did he prophecy Parcells would one day coach the team, like a vision? or did he just have a thing for awful stadiums and racetracks and parcels of land in hick towns far south of Boston?

Parcells is a HOFer not because of his accomplishments with the Patriots, or his fame and name recognition previous, but because of his part in Krafts magical dream where one day Tuna would beget the Messiah BB, and BB would beget Brady, fulfilling the prophecy?

Why not judge him by his actual record and screwing the team before the big game is part of his legacy (like Fairbanks) no matter the reason.

Kindof interesting that you left out the one most compelling and indisputable facts - Kraft's own admission that Parcells had reinvigorated the fan base by the end of his first season - at which point he vowed not to be denied in his quest for the team based upon - I emphasize again - a revitalized fan base


You lump all of this and Bob Kraft's ownership of the Patriots as a minor event on par with a simple W-L record.

Bob Kraft freely acknowledges this and specifically Parcells as a pivotal moment in his determination.

Why won't you? It's all part of the football story here - it really happened that way. Kraft isn't lying.

Geeze - maybe it would help if you just thought of Parcells as the guy who introduced Belichick to Bob Kraft and the Patriots, you can at least throw in some credit for that.

I really think some people have some faulty memories about what the Patriots Public mindset was at that time and what an impact that had on a moribund fan base, embarrassed on multiple levels of the game on and off the field.

Parcells turned things around in a big way and that is what Kraft acknowledges his willingness to once and for all go for broke, holding the card of a refusal to relinquish lease rights AND offering an NFL record amount, himself making the offer that could not be refused

Kraft even says that he could have bought the team for a cheaper amount earlier, but obviously didn't feel it was the right time ...

Can you just accept that maybe all of THAT as well as his other accomplishments to bring the team to the Super Bowl in such a short period of time, is something the Selection Committee deems just - if not more - important than factoring his average number of wins and leaving it at that?

 

[RayClay]

Kindof interesting that you left out the one most compelling and indisputable facts - Kraft's own admission that Parcells had reinvigorated the fan base by the end of his first season

Yes, having a 2 time Super Bowl winner after a former UMass coach will do that.

So you're contention is, he was already HOF worthy by the end of his first 5-11 season. Makes as much sense as anything you've said, if the only criteria for being in the Hall of Fame is having something to do with leading to or being in the 2000s, when the team started.

Should we dispense with the formalities and just induct Woodhead now? He's such a gamer.

By the way, there were two other coaches that took teams recently as bad as Parcells and turned them around too. of course, they don't count.

If it's now the Hall of Pivotal moments, I could name a few others, believe it or not.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Despise the guy for the way he bolted NE after the SB, but I have to give credit where it's due and the man is one of the best football minds to grace the gridiron IMO. As fans, we owe almost everything for what the Pats are today to Parcells, almost as much as we do to Kraft, BB, and Brady. So yes, but not yet.

No we don't, that's not even close to being true.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Yes, having a 2 time Super Bowl winner after a former UMass coach will do that.

So you're contention is, he was already HOF worthy by the end of his first 5-11 season. Makes as much sense as anything you've said, if the only criteria for being in the Hall of Fame is having something to do with leading to or being in the 2000s, when the team started.

Should we dispense with the formalities and just induct Woodhead now? He's such a gamer.

By the way, there were two other coaches that took teams recently as bad as Parcells and turned them around too. of course, they don't count.

If it's now the Hall of Pivotal moments, I could name a few others, believe it or not.

Yes, well, aside from transforming the NFL's laughingstock team into a young, credible, talented NFL team in one season, prompting Kraft to pull the trigger and secure the team paving a way for future dynasties, while bringing his team to the Super Bowl within 4 years and leaving a winning attitude and more than a few solid contributors via his drafts, I guess you're right...

...Parcells really has nothing going for him.

What WERE those selection committee folks thinking????!!!!

 

[RayClay]

Yes, well, aside from transforming the NFL's laughingstock team into a young, credible, talented NFL team in one season, prompting Kraft to pull the trigger and secure the team paving a way for future dynasties, while bringing his team to the Super Bowl within 4 years and leaving a winning attitude and more than a few solid contributors via his drafts, I guess you're right...

...Parcells really has nothing going for him.

What WERE those selection committee folks thinking????!!!!

So having two losing seasons in his first three did that? wow. Did he go with kraft and pick out the land in 1985 or crunch the numbers for the stadium purchase? I'm sure he did.

I wonder why he even bothered coaching the giants when his destiny was obviously to be a crucial part leading to the only players and coaches who mattered in patriots history.

Unfortunately, compared to the bandwagoners, I have the handicap of remembering two other coaches who turned teams around, another who probably saved the franchise, and years of struggling to keep professional football in New England before the only coaches and players that mattered arrived.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Yes, well, aside from transforming the NFL's laughingstock team into a young, credible, talented NFL team in one season, prompting Kraft to pull the trigger and secure the team paving a way for future dynasties, while bringing his team to the Super Bowl within 4 years and leaving a winning attitude and more than a few solid contributors via his drafts, I guess you're right...

...Parcells really has nothing going for him.

What WERE those selection committee folks thinking????!!!!

Fairbanks took over a team that had gone 19-51 the previous five years, turned around the team with a 46-39 record, drafted 2 Hall of Famers and left under less than ideal circumstances.

Parcells took over a team that had gone 14-50 the previous four years, turned the team around with a 32-32 record, drafted several dynasty players, not sure if any will make the Hall of Fame and left under less than ideal circumstances.

If Parcells belongs than Fairbanks does too, I say they don't because neither won a SB and for the way they left.

 

[RayClay]

Fairbanks took over a team that had gone 19-51 the previous five years, turned around the team with a 46-39 record, drafted 2 Hall of Famers and left under ideal circumstances.

Parcells took over a team that had gone 14-50 the previous four years, turned the team around with a 32-32 record, drafted several dynasty players, not sure if any will make the Hall of Fame and left under ideal circumstances.

If Parcells belongs than Fairbanks does too, I say they don't because neither won a SB and for the way they left.

Parcells had two losing seasons in his first three. Holovak had five winning seasons in his first six, with a much more difficult financial situation and had the best one season winning percentage (10-3-1 14 gm season) next to Fairbanks 11-3 (and an 11-5). Parcells had one 11-5 season, but Berry had two.

 

[Ring 6]

So you really have no clue what may have prompted them to decide he was worthy of induction to the Hall of Fame?

I can't help but notice that all your criteria seem to be limited to very simple stats. We've seen time and time again that simple stats NEVER tell the whole story.

Well this is no surprise, as you continue to purposely misrepresent all of my comments.
I am basing my criteria on the job he did, and its importance in the context of the history of the franchise. I am not giving him credit for what came long after he was gone, and trying to pretend it happened because of him.

[qupte]Don't you think it may have something to do with Parcells influence on Kraft purchasing the team[/quote]
That is simply your creation, so no.

quote] - specifically Parcells role in exciting the fan base, which in turn made even the record bid Kraft put in, a smart business move in his mind even though everyone thought he was crazy..[/quote]

None of this is correct, he paid the market price for the team. Every time a team doesnt get sold for 5 years its a record.
Who is 'everyone' that says he was crazy and where are they now?

Ultimately all of that had a MONUMENTAL impact all to Patriots history from thereon out

No. He coached for a short period of time, with a moderate amount of success.
The franchise went on to have MONUMENTAL SUCCESS without him.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Fairbanks took over a team that had gone 19-51 the previous five years, turned around the team with a 46-39 record, drafted 2 Hall of Famers and left under ideal circumstances.

Parcells took over a team that had gone 14-50 the previous four years, turned the team around with a 32-32 record, drafted several dynasty players, not sure if any will make the Hall of Fame and left under ideal circumstances.

If Parcells belongs than Fairbanks does too, I say they don't because neither won a SB and for the way they left.

Wow - brilliant.

And so, seeing as you pretty much equate THAT with Kraft's own story of how he came to pull the trigger to own the team

.... the unlikely "worst to first" story

... and aside from the fact that you seem to be trashing on Patriots players because they're not in the NFL Hall of Fame...

...and Kraft's realization following the Parcells Fiasco, ultimately acknowledging that he SHOULDN'T meddle in football while bringing in a Parcells assistant named Belichick, and making the bold move to accept Parcell's advice and give Belichick free reign to draft and coach as he see fit...

Just seeing as we're equating that with Coach Fairbanks...

...what's your theory as to why the Hall of Fame Selection committee nominated him?

 

[Ring 6]

Let me help you out - since I highly doubt I'll get a straight answer from you.

I've aswered straight up every step of the way. You are the one twisting my posts into something you know I did not say.

Those "extraneous issues" that you refer to... the ones that don't get summed up in the inanely simple W-L record you rely on so heavily to convince yourself that YOU know better than the Official New England Patriots Hall of Fame Selection Committee,

IMO, I do know better, because I disagree with their decision. Is that really hard for you to understand?

likely have something to do with Bill Parcells role in prompting one Bob Kraft to purchase the team, keep them in New England, and start down the path of football history.

So, the only way you can support Parcells is by giving him credit for Kraft buying the team?
We are back to the beginning. You have no evidence to back that up other than you saying it 1000 times.
I DO NOT AGREE. I know that Bob Kraft would have bought the team with or without Parcells in place.
There is no need for you to tell me 1000 times that you think he wouldn't have. There is nothing more that you can say that will change my opinion that you are wrong. In fact I think it is one of the most ignorant opinions I have heard in a long time.

If you were correct, and Parcells was the only reason the team is still in NE, I would agree with you. However you are taking the credit that belongs to Bob Kraft and using it give Parcells credit he doesnt deserve.

You have actually cemented by position that Parcells doesn't belong, because even the boards resident Parcells jock-sniffer cannot come up with anything better than giving the credit Bob Kraft deserves to him as your only means of making a case.

Am I being clear?

 

[RayClay]

Wow - brilliant.

And so, seeing as you pretty much equate THAT with Kraft's own story of how he came to pull the trigger to own the team

.... the unlikely "worst to first" story

... and aside from the fact that you seem to be trashing on Patriots players because they're not in the NFL Hall of Fame...

...and Kraft's realization following the Parcells Fiasco, ultimately acknowledging that he SHOULDN'T meddle in football while bringing in a Parcells assistant named Belichick, and making the bold move to accept Parcell's advice and give Belichick free reign to draft and coach as he see fit...

Just seeing as we're equating that with Coach Fairbanks...

...what's your theory as to why the Hall of Fame Selection committee nominated him?

Parcells told him to give BB free reign while trying to tie him to a deal as HC of the NYJ? what a guy.

So, do you think Holovak should be in the team Hall of Fame?

(Holo who? Was he the backup LT in 2001?)

 

[Ring 6]

1) I'm almost certain they are the best of the last 20 speaking solely in terms of achievments, but i'll try to go check. The only team that should be in the discussion is the Steelers, as the Patriots have a clear SB edge on everyone else

You misunderstood. They have been the best team the last 10, Only because of the last 10 are they the best the last 20. The 10 before they were so-so.

2) We could go back to Rust, MacPherson et al but imo the addition of Parcells and Bledsoe was a seminal moment for the Patriots and once saved from St. Louis they turned the corner completely and have been doing exceptionally well ever since.

Parcells is not the reason the team didn't move Kraft is.
The franchise would be exactly where it is today if 2001-2011 happened regardless of whether Parcells or Bledsoe was ever here. I am glad we were competitive then, but we could have won 10 games from 1993-1996 combined, and that would have zero impact on the credibility of the dynasty that followed.

3) Simply saying Parcells was 32-32 is really being disengenuous imo as he took over the worst franchise in football and had to do major work to turn them into a SB team. He had a short run but there is no question he turned the franchise from a joke to a SB contender.

I am judging him on the job he was paid to do. Why is that disingenuous?
I have stated that is pretty good considering what he inherited, but it is what it is. The length of his tenure is very important in considering whether he belongs on the list of the greatest contributors in the history of the franchise.

4) I agree the culture reverted under Carroll but think the Kraft's learned a great deal during the previous 6 years and understood that the way coaches like Parcells and Belichik ran teams was the way to go, and to their credit they gave up what was needed to go and get Belichik.

Come on. You want to put Parcells in the HOF by arguing that Kraft 'learned his lesson' from Parcells, and BBs success belongs to Parcells?
Kraft wanted no part of Parcells after 4 years. Kraft hired BB becuase of BB, because he knew him, not because he was looking for a Parcells clone, which BB is far from.

5) I don't think Parcells deserves credit for everything that took place after him, in fact very little of it, but what he does deserve credit for has ruminated through the years as even under carroll they were winners, and many of the leaders on those teams and future Belichik SB teams were Parcells guys.

He left becuase he couldnt choose the groceries, how does he get in the HOF for the groceries he says someone else picked?

6) A statistical argument cannot be made for Parcells being in the Patriots HOF, the argument is completely contextual, some believe he was a key player in their turnaround and others not so much.

I'm not worried about stats, I am judging him by the job he did.
I cannot in good concscience give him credit for other peoples success. That short changes the people who really deserve the credit.

 

[Ring 6]

Parcells told him to give BB free reign while trying to tie him to a deal as HC of the NYJ? what a guy.

So, do you think Holovak should be in the team Hall of Fame?

(Holo who? Was he the backup LT in 2001?)

Soon the story will be Parcells paid Mo Lewis to take Bledsoe out.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You guys are great...

Why was Parcells nominated?

"Well he was buddies with the media"

But none of them covered him in the 90s...

"Yeah, well.... er, all media is biased towards Parcells"

Well you've just seen undisputed proof that Kraft credits him as the catalyst for his purchase of the team by turning things around so quickly and reinvigorating a moribund fan base - Kraft's purchase of the team couldn't be a BIGGER moment in Patriots history, right?

"Yeah but... um Chuck Fairbanks had more Hall of Fame players - those lousy Patriots who played for Parcells obviously stink

Well ok, surely bringing the laughingstock team to the Super Bowl in just 4 years counts for something

"Since when do we as Patriots fans care about making it to the Super Bowl? Win Loss record baby - that's what makes a Hall of Famer. Super Bowl appearances are over rated

Just amazing.

You guys got an answer for everything. They just happen to be really really bad answers.