Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[JoeSixPat]

Yes, I understand it, but I'm not voting for him - ever. Is that emotional? Mostly.

Personally, I think Parcells was a good coach and a superior motivator/leader.....but look at his record overall. I think people make more of it than it really was. He bails on teams when is suits him. His ability to buy the groceries is no better or no worse than most grocery shoppers. Put it this way, his reputation is BIG....bigger than the coach himself.

btw -

he also cut Troy Brown, Stole Cumart and did not want Terry Glenn...remember, First Round Wide Out was not on the grocery list.

I appreciate the admission. Many cannot bring themselves to do so.

I actually agree with much of what you say - and interestingly I think if the Patriots still had yet to win a Super Bowl, I'm not sure you'd not see the selection committee be as forgiving of his departure.

Parcells himself admits getting lucky with finding some players, as I'm sure Belichick would with Brady - and while we all remember that he did not feel he should have been over-ruled on his choice of 1st round picks, ultimately he certainly get Terry Glenn to perform "her" best that rookie season.

I'd suspect that's one of many areas where he and Kraft have since mended fences... and for the record, I think Kraft would admit he's since changed his tune on whether he feels it would be appropriate for him or anyone else to attempt to overrule Belichick's choice of draft picks... yet another piece of the evolution of the Patriots with direct ties to Parcells... a development that was critical in the creation of the dynasty many fans who never sat through those awful years of the early 90s can never comprehend.

I think this nomination would also not have happened if Bob Kraft still had the chip on his shoulder about Parcells tenure that many fans retain.

 

[RobAllan]

One of my football fantasies is that somehow Tomase and Parcells get buried in the same coffin so I only have to piss on one grave.

This should be a bumper sticker or something. EPIC.
Also, I agree with it. Not only no, but hell no.

 

[Ring 6]

You've been misinformed if you think the media - few if any who can be called biased in favor of Parcells since they weren't even here during his tenure - are the only members of the selection committee.

There are staff members and former players as well.

Oh really? I am the one who posted who they are.
There are 18 media members.
3 'staff' Ernie Adams and equipment manager and a statistician.
3 former players Len St Jean, Grogan and Tippett.

75% of the panel is media. 75% is very likely enough to to get someone nominted with zero votes from the others.

But I'm glad to see you acknowledge that the question of whether Parcells is "deserving of Hall of Fame induction" is decided.

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing.
The nominating panel thinks he deserves nomination.
Whether he belongs is the topic of this thread. The 24 member panel is clearly not the sole judge to determine this as they are only able to nominate. If it were 'decided' then he would be in.

That answer is yes an unequivocal "yes" as decided by a committee of staff, media and former players chosen by the New England Patriots themselves - none of whom are using pseudonyms and would publicly stand behind and defend their choice, regardless of whether you have the ability to comprehend why they made the choice they did.

That doesnt mean they made a good decision.

WHETHER Parcells, although deserving, IS inducted into the Hall of Fame is where YOUR vote counts.

Which is the answer to the question of does he belong.

It wouldn't surprise me if some on the selection committee share or at least understand that many in the Patriots fan base will never forgive Parcells for leaving the way he did... but they rose above the "jilted schoolgirl effect" and made a rational assessment to determine Parcells is worthy of the Hall of Fame.

They have an opinion, I have an opinion. You apparently cede yours to whatever they decide.

I'd love to see more fans also rise above raw emotions and make the same rational assessment of Parcells of the selection committee. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

Do you read? Can you read?
I have said over and over, it has nothing to do with emotion, and nothing to do with his departure.
He did not do enough here to qualify for the Patriots HOF based upon my criteria. That's it. Stop trying to act like anyone who disagrees with you is basing it on something you made up rather than what they specifically and clearly state they are basing it on. It is rather childish behavior.

 

[Ring 6]

Teams cheated the cap for the first four or five years. True free agency didn't really kick in until the late 90s because marquee players were still retained for the first few years of free agency unaware the cap hell they were going to get into years later. Besides we are talking about fans' attitudes towards the Pats not the realities of whether anyone can turn it around.

Parcells gave the Pats legitimacy. Since free agency and the cap was never done before that year, no one knew about the parity that was coming a decade later. Back then, joke teams stayed joked teams for decades with no hope of turning it around. Both Tampa and N'Orleans needed free agency and parity to become legitimate. The Pats did it sooner.

There is no denying the Pats were a joke of the league before Parcells and Parcells renewed the interest in the team. That was significant in the in history of the Patriots. As I said, it is like Namath helped to give legitimacy to the AFL which is why he is in the Hall.

If you want to ignore history and deny what Parcells did to this fanbase when he arrived, that is fine. But Parcells did make a significant impact on the Pats history.

He turned them from winning 14 games in 4 years into a .500 team.
Accomplishment? Yes. HOF worthy? No.

 

[Ring 6]

There's no sense re-stating all that has been mentioned before. If you're interested there's 5 pages of this thread.

However I do thank you for making clear how fans view the selection with more of an emotional bias than the selection committee.

That's your right if you'd like that to be the main factor in your decision.

It's clear that the selection committee of media, staff and former players did NOT allow such sentiments to alter their decision to declare Parcells deserving of induction into the Patriots Hall of Fame. But nominate him they did.

Many fans are completely unable to fathom why they did. I'm a bit surprised by that because while I don't expect Parcells to get the nod over Bledsoe (I voted for Bledsoe myself) I actually had a high opinion of Patsfans' ability to comprehend the reasons why they nominated him.

Clearly I was wrong.

The argument that disagrees with you has been explained ad nauseum.
In no facet of it does anyone fail to comprehend the reasons they nominated him. We simply disagree.
Feeling yuo are wrong and not 'fathoming' 'comprehending' or 'admitting to' what your argument is are 2 very different things.

Why can yu not just get over the fact that everyone understands what you are saying and not everyone agrees??????

 

[Rob0729]

He turned them from winning 14 games in 4 years into a .500 team.
Accomplishment? Yes. HOF worthy? No.

Even with his on the field production, you seem to discount he did in fact get the Patriots to a Super Bowl. Yes, he didn't put the effort into winning it, but he did get them there. Only one other Patriots coach managed that before him.

But if you are going to ignore my point of what his impact was in the bigger scale of things, I guess there isn't much to debate.

 

[Ring 6]

Even with his on the field production, you seem to discount he did in fact get the Patriots to a Super Bowl. Yes, he didn't put the effort into winning it, but he did get them there. Only one other Patriots coach managed that before him.

But if you are going to ignore my point of what his impact was in the bigger scale of things, I guess there isn't much to debate.

Not ignoring it. I just measure his impact by what he did (and no, 4 years of .500 with 1 SB trip and loss is not my idea of HOF worthy) rather than trying to give him credit for what others did after he was gone.
2001-2011 would have happened even if Parcells had endured 4 8-8 seasons.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He turned them from winning 14 games in 4 years into a .500 team.
Accomplishment? Yes. HOF worthy? No.

Do you REALLY think that's why the Patriots Hall of Fame selection committee picked him?

Because he has a .500 record?

I'm not trying to insult you but you're doing a pretty good job yourself if you really think that's why he was deemed deserving of being in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

Perhaps they're considering some other reason that you're just unable to comprehend.

 

[Triumph]

Nothing contraditory about it. You make it sound like the fans said to themselves that since Kraft kept the Pats in Foxboro, the least they could do is buy season tickets. I am saying because of the direction of the team, there was a renewed interest in the team. With Kraft keeping the team in Foxboro it made fans willing to make a financial interest in the team now they knew that spending $500-$1000 at the time for season tickets was not going to be for one year where the Pats would pick up and move to St. Louis the next.



LOL! Everyone knows. You kidding me?!? So you are arguing that fans would have sold out the stadium for a team that wasn't going to get more than 4-5 wins and was hopelessly rudderless. You are saying the only reason the Pats sold out the stadium in 1994 was because of appreciation to Kraft buying the team?!?



First, you keep on saying that Kraft tried to buy the team before with no evidence of it. I looked online and did not find one citation stating he tried to buy the team before. Just because he bought the land around it and the stadium for a major deal doesn't mean he ever tried to buy the team. He could have when the Sullivans went bankrupt and didn't and could have at least tried when Kiam went belly up. Orthwein took it in the bankrupcy, but never wanted to be an owner and would have not blocked a sale if he could have gotten paid.
.

I misspoke. Kraft had two opportunities to bid for the Pats but declined each time because it didnt feel right. I suppose inquiring about the cost of the Patriots, but not actually placing an offer, isnt trying to buy the franchise. But, Kraft did want to buy the Patriots long before Parcells was ever around.

That is a fact.

Unlikely Dynasty - Forbes.com

Kraft later tried to buy baseball's Red Sox. He made inquiries about the NBA's Celtics. But "my first love was always the Patriots. I knew it would be a long shot. I mean, what are the odds of owning a team in your hometown?" In 1985 he embarked on a calculated but risky plan to chase his dream.

He wanted to own not only the team but also its stadium and all the surrounding land. He started by locking up purchase rights to 300 acres around the stadium in Foxboro, Mass. The Sullivan family, founding owners of the Patriots, owned the team and the stadium but not the surrounding land. In 1985 Kraft bought a ten-year option on the property, paying a group of Boston businessmen $1 million a year for first dibs to buy the land someday for $18 million. It was risky, but "the option gave me ten years to try to figure out how to get the team," he says.

 

[Rob0729]

I misspoke. Kraft had two opportunities to bid for the Pats but declined each time because it didnt feel right. I suppose inquiring about the cost of the Patriots, but not actually placing an offer, isnt trying to buy the franchise. But, Kraft did want to buy the Patriots long before Parcells was ever around.

That is a fact.

Unlikely Dynasty - Forbes.com

Kraft later tried to buy baseball's Red Sox. He made inquiries about the NBA's Celtics. But "my first love was always the Patriots. I knew it would be a long shot. I mean, what are the odds of owning a team in your hometown?" In 1985 he embarked on a calculated but risky plan to chase his dream.

He wanted to own not only the team but also its stadium and all the surrounding land. He started by locking up purchase rights to 300 acres around the stadium in Foxboro, Mass. The Sullivan family, founding owners of the Patriots, owned the team and the stadium but not the surrounding land. In 1985 Kraft bought a ten-year option on the property, paying a group of Boston businessmen $1 million a year for first dibs to buy the land someday for $18 million. It was risky, but "the option gave me ten years to try to figure out how to get the team," he says.

So in other words, you have provided me with evidence that Parcells had a direct effect on Kraft buying the team. He refused to buy it two previous times, but decided at that point to make at the time a record purchase. The popularity that Parcells brought made it (at least in part) the right time to pull the trigger.

As for Kraft wanting to buy the team, I never said he may have wanted to own the Patriots, but he has other chances to buy it for far less than he did. But he didn't do it. He is a businessman and he had to feel he would get a return on his investment.

At this point, there really isn't much left to argue. Neither of us are going to change each other's mind.

 

[JoeSixPat]

So in other words, you have provided me with evidence that Parcells had a direct effect on Kraft buying the team. He refused to buy it two previous times, but decided at that point to make at the time a record purchase. The popularity that Parcells brought made it (at least in part) the right time to pull the trigger.

As for Kraft wanting to buy the team, I never said he may have wanted to own the Patriots, but he has other chances to buy it for far less than he did. But he didn't do it. He is a businessman and he had to feel he would get a return on his investment.

At this point, there really isn't much left to argue. Neither of us are going to change each other's mind.

I'm still waiting for AJ's answer (he can't REALLY think that the HoF Selection Committee nominated Parcells because of his .500 record, but I guess that may actually be his theory)

Ultimately I believe that your summation is in part, the same one that drove the Selection Committee to nominate Parcells

There were several key events that led to this organization's amazing turnaround.

Parcells coming in as coach and restoring credibility to an organization was the first of many factors that made Kraft's decision to turn down $75 million and instead make an NFL record bid plausible and possible.

Heck - one could even make the case that it was only by Kraft learning from his mistake of second-guessing his Head Coach/GM that set the stage for Kraft hiring Belichick and allowing him to run the football team rather than the owner.

Kraft himself today would admit his mistake and would note that very change in his management style as owner key to the success of the 2000s.

These I believe, are some of the many factors that prompted the Patriots Selection Committee to nominate Parcells - not Parcells' .500 record as AJ asserts.

 

[Ring 6]

Do you REALLY think that's why the Patriots Hall of Fame selection committee picked him?

Because he has a .500 record?

I'm not trying to insult you but you're doing a pretty good job yourself if you really think that's why he was deemed deserving of being in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

Perhaps they're considering some other reason that you're just unable to comprehend.

Those are his accomplishments, and accomplishments are in my definition of Hall of Fame worthy. Whatever other criteria they may have used, whatever extraneous issues they wish to give him credit for don't matter much to me because they are not part of MY criteia,

Perhaps you should try to comprehend that.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm still waiting for AJ's answer (he can't REALLY think that the HoF Selection Committee nominated Parcells because of his .500 record, but I guess that may actually be his theory)

Ultimately I believe that your summation is in part, the same one that drove the Selection Committee to nominate Parcells

There were several key events that led to this organization's amazing turnaround.

Parcells coming in as coach and restoring credibility to an organization was the first of many factors that made Kraft's decision to turn down $75 million and instead make an NFL record bid plausible and possible.

Heck - one could even make the case that it was only by Kraft learning from his mistake of second-guessing his Head Coach/GM that set the stage for Kraft hiring Belichick and allowing him to run the football team rather than the owner.

Kraft himself today would admit his mistake and would note that very change in his management style as owner key to the success of the 2000s.

These I believe, are some of the many factors that prompted the Patriots Selection Committee to nominate Parcells - not Parcells' .500 record as AJ asserts.

How do you constantly ignore what I say while making up things totally opposite of what I say and attributing them to me?
Are you that insecure? Really?

 

[JoeSixPat]

Those are his accomplishments, and accomplishments are in my definition of Hall of Fame worthy. Whatever other criteria they may have used, whatever extraneous issues they wish to give him credit for don't matter much to me because they are not part of MY criteia,

Perhaps you should try to comprehend that.

So you really have no clue what may have prompted them to decide he was worthy of induction to the Hall of Fame?

I can't help but notice that all your criteria seem to be limited to very simple stats. We've seen time and time again that simple stats NEVER tell the whole story.

Don't you think it may have something to do with Parcells influence on Kraft purchasing the team - specifically Parcells role in exciting the fan base, which in turn made even the record bid Kraft put in, a smart business move in his mind even though everyone thought he was crazy...

Ultimately all of that had a MONUMENTAL impact all to Patriots history from thereon out

 

[Frezo]

If Parcells is to be in the Pat's HOF, it needs to be because of what he did as a coach while he was a Patriot and not the legacy that followed him here from New York. If Petey were hired instead of Parcells for those 4 years and did the same things, there is no way he'd be nominated. Parcells was nominated because of who he was and not because of what he did. Let the Giants put him in their HOF. He was never a true Patriot.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Those are his accomplishments, and accomplishments are in my definition of Hall of Fame worthy. Whatever other criteria they may have used, whatever extraneous issues they wish to give him credit for don't matter much to me because they are not part of MY criteia,

Perhaps you should try to comprehend that.

Let me help you out - since I highly doubt I'll get a straight answer from you.

Those "extraneous issues" that you refer to... the ones that don't get summed up in the inanely simple W-L record you rely on so heavily to convince yourself that YOU know better than the Official New England Patriots Hall of Fame Selection Committee, likely have something to do with Bill Parcells role in prompting one Bob Kraft to purchase the team, keep them in New England, and start down the path of football history.

 

[RayClay]

Let me help you out - since I highly doubt I'll get a straight answer from you.

Those "extraneous issues" that you refer to... the ones that don't get summed up in the inanely simple W-L record you rely on so heavily to convince yourself that YOU know better than the Official New England Patriots Hall of Fame Selection Committee, likely have something to do with Bill Parcells role in prompting one Bob Kraft to purchase the team, keep them in New England, and start down the path of football history.

I do know better than the Pats HOF selection committee so far, though that isn't saying much.:bricks:

 

[JoeSixPat]

I do know better than the Pats HOF selection committee so far, though that isn't saying much.:bricks:

That's correct

Ultimately you and AJ are really not arguing with me... You're arguing with Bob Kraft and the Hall of Fame Selection Committee.

So let's take a look at what Bob Kraft says regarding whether the turnaround started by Bill Parcells had any factor in his decision to buy the team.

Bear in mind we already know that while Bob Kraft very much wanted to buy the team, he had numerous opportunities to buy the team previously, and at a much cheaper price (much to has chagrin in hindsight) - yet he obviously determined that the team had significantly less value during those dark years of Zeke Mowatt, Rod Rust and **** McPherson and as much as a fan he was, he was also a businessman and he knew it did not make business sense to purchase the team at that time.

So what changed? What prompted Bob Kraft to purchase the Patriots - something I think everyone here - even you, AJ and the Parcells haters - could acknowledge was, in itself, a moment worthy of Hall of Fame inclusion certainly for Bob Kraft - and could be a fact for that person who influenced his decision.

Let's let Bob Kraft tell the story from here in "Management Secrets of the New England Patriots"

In 1994, $172 million was "the highest price ever paid for a sports franchise" and "Many people thought I'd made a foolhardy move" in overpaying for a horrible team.

On paper, Kraft got robbed. The Patriots were 5-11 in 1989, 1-15 in 1990, 6-10 in 1991, 2-14 in 1992, and 5-11 in 1993! The team was so horrible that the NFL seriously considered buying it to eliminate a perpetual embarrassment.

Most everyone thought Kraft was either insane or a hopeless Patriots romantic who wildly overpaid for a hopeless team.

But Kraft was also a wise businessman who saw a hidden gem and had a plan to polish off its grime and make it shine again: "The thing on the balance sheet that nobody noticed was the potential fan base. If you understood the passion of the people."

Kraft knew the team had drafted quarterback Drew Bledsoe #1 overall in the NFL Draft on April 25, 1993 and legendary head coach Bill Parcells had the team moving in the right direction. The team had won only one of its first twelve games under Parcells but ended 1993 on a four-game winning streak.

Jonathan Kraft recalls his dad turning to him-like a shark smelling blood in the water-as the Patriots' last victory drove the crowd into a mad frenzy: "The crowd was just going nuts. They were just dying to have stability and commitment to a championship. Robert turned to me and said, 'There's no way I'm not buying this franchise.'"

http://www.patriotsbook.com/SAMPLES/Collaborating_265-269.pdf

So there you go. Not even you can deny Kraft's own words about the pivotal factor in his decision to pay an NFL record amount for the Patriots at that time

Bill Parcells and a promising (though as of yet unproven) Drew Bledsoe.

Continue to point to Parcells W-L record if you'd like - but you're going to have to eventually admit that's not why the selection committee deemed Parcells deserving of induction.

There's now no question that the "extraneous issues" relevant to what Parcells brought to the team were a significant factor in his decision to turn down $75 million, invest an NFL record bid for a team, keep the organization in New England, and make football history.

You don't have to like it - you don't have to vote for Parcells - but you can no longer deny that Parcells himself and his work even in just one year - indeed even in the last 4 games of the 1993 season - were a major factor prompting Kraft to buy the team at that time.

And if the decision of Bob Kraft to purchase the New England Patriots at that moment in time when they were so close to being shipped off to St. Louis or some other city isn't a Hall of Fame moment - then what is?

Now I'm sure they considered other factors as well - Parcells incredible ability to motivate players even using different styles... a soft approach to get the most out of Bledsoe - a tougher approach to get Terry Glen to play to the best of "her" ability... some VERY good moves as a GM (though some not so good) and of course his ability to take a team that was the embarrassment of the NFL to the Super Bowl in 4 short years...

Perhaps even his role in "teaching" Bob Kraft not to meddle in football affairs of his Head Coach/GM - something even more critical to Belichick's later success more than the building blocks of the 2001 team left by Parcells

But overall I think they'd probably acknowledge what Kraft admits - that Parcells "legendary" status and role in turning the team around that first season - in the last 4 games - was the deciding factor for Kraft purchasing the team

All of that, taken together, obviously equates to what no one can deny - that Bob Krafts Patriots Hall of Fame Selection Committee has deemed Parcells "deserving of inclusion in the Patriots Hall of Fame"

 

[RayClay]

That's correct

Ultimately you and AJ are really not arguing with me... You're arguing with Bob Kraft and the Hall of Fame Selection Committee.

So let's take a look at what Bob Kraft says regarding whether the turnaround started by Bill Parcells had any factor in his decision to buy the team.

Bear in mind we already know that while Bob Kraft very much wanted to buy the team, he had numerous opportunities to buy the team previously, and at a much cheaper price (much to has chagrin in hindsight) - yet he obviously determined that the team had significantly less value during those dark years of Zeke Mowatt, Rod Rust and **** McPherson and as much as a fan he was, he was also a businessman and he knew it did not make business sense to purchase the team at that time.

So what changed? What prompted Bob Kraft to purchase the Patriots - something I think everyone here - even you, AJ and the Parcells haters - could acknowledge was, in itself, a moment worthy of Hall of Fame inclusion certainly for Bob Kraft - and could be a fact for that person who influenced his decision.

Let's let Bob Kraft tell the story from here in "Management Secrets of the New England Patriots"



http://www.patriotsbook.com/SAMPLES/Collaborating_265-269.pdf

So there you go. Not even you can deny Kraft's own words about the pivotal factor in his decision to pay an NFL record amount for the Patriots at that time

Bill Parcells and a promising (though as of yet unproven) Drew Bledsoe.

Continue to point to Parcells W-L record if you'd like - but you're going to have to eventually admit that's not why the selection committee deemed Parcells deserving of induction.

There's now no question that the "extraneous issues" relevant to what Parcells brought to the team were a significant factor in his decision to turn down $75 million, invest an NFL record bid for a team, keep the organization in New England, and make football history.

You don't have to like it - you don't have to vote for Parcells - but you can no longer deny that Parcells himself and his work even in just one year - indeed even in the last 4 games of the 1993 season - were a major factor prompting Kraft to buy the team at that time.

And if the decision of Bob Kraft to purchase the New England Patriots at that moment in time when they were so close to being shipped off to St. Louis or some other city isn't a Hall of Fame moment - then what is?

Now I'm sure they considered other factors as well - Parcells incredible ability to motivate players even using different styles... a soft approach to get the most out of Bledsoe - a tougher approach to get Terry Glen to play to the best of "her" ability... some VERY good moves as a GM (though some not so good) and of course his ability to take a team that was the embarrassment of the NFL to the Super Bowl in 4 short years...

Perhaps even his role in "teaching" Bob Kraft not to meddle in football affairs of his Head Coach/GM - something even more critical to Belichick's later success more than the building blocks of the 2001 team left by Parcells

But overall I think they'd probably acknowledge what Kraft admits - that Parcells "legendary" status and role in turning the team around that first season - in the last 4 games - was the deciding factor for Kraft purchasing the team

All of that, taken together, obviously equates to what no one can deny - that Bob Krafts Patriots Hall of Fame Selection Committee has deemed Parcells "deserving of inclusion in the Patriots Hall of Fame"

So what? What you're saying is, regardless of his record, Parcells gets in the hall of Fame because he was already famous.

How about Mike Holovak? Many esteemed local writers and coaches say the team might have folded without him. No BB, no brady, no nothing.

Didn't Fairbanks trurn the team around?

Didn't Berry turn the team around?

Instead of making a case for Parcells in the hall of fame, you keep saying he deserves it because he was picked, just like Ron Burton.

It's a popularity name recognition contest and anyone famous has a better shot. Of course the prospects were better at that time with Parcells instead of MacPherson, or whomever.

The same as they were better with Fairbanks, Holovak and Berry.

Out of the four of them, Parcells contribution was probably more from his Giants fame than his Patriots accomplishments.

I still say Holovak is no doubt a Pats HOF, while the two who turned tail and Berry are fairly equal.

Being a celebrity is not an accomplishment, look at the gossip columns.

 

[JoeSixPat]

So what? What you're saying is, regardless of his record, Parcells gets in the hall of Fame because he was already famous.

How about Mike Holovak? Many esteemed local writers and coaches say the team might have folded without him. No BB, no brady, no nothing.

Didn't Fairbanks trurn the team around?

Didn't Berry turn the team around?

Instead of making a case for Parcells in the hall of fame, you keep saying he deserves it because he was picked, just like Ron Burton.

It's a popularity name recognition contest and anyone famous has a better shot. Of course the prospects were better at that time with Parcells instead of MacPherson, or whomever.

The same as they were better with Fairbanks, Holovak and Berry.

Out of the four of them, Parcells contribution was probably more from his Giants fame than his Patriots accomplishments.

I still say Holovak is no doubt a Pats HOF, while the two who turned tail and Berry are fairly equal.

Being a celebrity is not an accomplishment, look at the gossip columns.

That's all you take from that?

"Parcells was famous"?

Really?