Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[Ring 6]

Thank you. You've restored some hope for me that there's ample reason and sanity among Patfandom.

Oh yes, God forbid anyone disagree with you or they must be insane. Wow.

As you've assessed, so too did the selection committee look beyond simple stats to assess the big picture of football in New England at a VERY pivotal and tumultuous time, recognizing Parcells role restoring credibility and establishing a winning attitude.

Actually you have no idea what the selection committee based their nomination on.

Of course the selection committee isn't going to get caught up in Parcells W-L record

God forbid we judge a coach on winning

- and while they might share some fans emotional reactions akin to that of a boyfriend jilted at the prom relevant to his exit, they're not going to let that cloud their assessment of the big picture.

So the only way to disagree with you is to have an irrational emotional attachement?
Not.
I do not feel Parcells belongs and I wouldn't even if he hadnt abandon his job in preparing for the SB. 32-32 is not HOF worthy.

Although I don't expect the Parcells Haters to understand, they might want to recognize that the selection committee DID deem him worthy of the Hall of Fame - and they might want to stop the hate and reflect on just why they did that.

Why must someone HATE Parcells to think a 32-32 record and a short 4 year tenure does not qualify him to be honored as one of the all-time greats of the franchise?
You can't argue the facts, so you call it hate. Bad form.
I have looked at the record, and the justification for why he would be nominated. I disagree. Am I not allowed to form my own opinion? Because it seems to you that if I do I must have some mental defect or emotional flaw. Do you really look at things that way?

 

[JoeSixPat]

So the guy who says there is a statistical argument that Bledsoe belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame is your idea of proof there is reason and sanity among Pats fans? Good luck with that.

It was pretty obvious to me and probably everyone else that he was making the point that some people are obsessed by stats and might be swayed by 44,000 yards passing etc...

He's implying that focusing on one such stat one might suggest that Bledsoe had a better career than Brady (if he called it quits today) - but the only people stupid enough to do that are the ones who would be stupid enough to assess Parcells' tenure based on simple W-L record and ignore other more relevant factors

Take another look at his message - as I said it seemed pretty clear to me

Andy Johnson and others REALLY just can't seem to come to grips with the fact that the New England Patriots Hall of Fame selection committee came out and said that Parcells was worthy of the Patriots Hall of Fame

It's nothing short of hilarious to watch them point out "You don't know what the selection committee based their decision on."

The bottom line is that whatever they based their decision on, they deemed him worthy of the HoF - and they just... won't... accept it!

It's actually pretty entertaining... just look above at how fired up AJ's getting as he tries to find some way to undermine the decision of the Patriots' own selection committee!

 

[Ring 6]

Let's just agree that the New England Patriots Official Hall of Fame Selection Committee, made up of representatives chosen by the New England Patriots to select members of the New England Patriots Hall of Fame has nominated Bill Parcells as one of three individuals they deem "deserving of induction in the Hall of Fame"

Agree? That was the basis of the thread.
If that is what you are arguing, you are arguing the question, rather than the answer.

You disagree with them. Their vote on that one counts and yours, thankfully, does not.

I am sure many who voted shared my opinion.
In any event, my vote does count, because I have already voted on one of the finalists.

I actually have a bit of pride that in SPITE of all that went on with Parcell's departure etc that the players, staff and writers would still be objective and impartial making the nomination that they did.

I am objective and impartial too, and I disagree. Why are you impartial to feel one way, and I am not to feel a different way?

That's classy in my eyes - recognizing someone's significant contributions even if it didn't end well.

I would agree, but I find the contributions much, much less significant than you do. For some reason you are deeply hurt and offended by that to the point you are now posting as if this were a character issue.

That's the sort of thing that I feel always set the Patriots organization apart from so many others.

I have no idea what that means.

I actually expected most of the fans to echo that sentiment.

I'm a bit saddened to see that's not the case.

Why would you be saddened to find that many fans do not feel 4 years of .500 football should rank in the pantheon of the greatest in the history of the franchise? Sad that others have a higher standard of the "Hall of Fame"? I don't quite get that.

I don't think Parcells stands a shot against Bledsoe and who knows how he'll fare now or in the future. What's clear is that the nominating committee would have no problem with Parcells being inducted, and I very much feel the same way.

You could have saved a lot of cyber space by saying you agree with the committee and think he belongs in the HOF and allowed others to give their opinion and left it at that.

If Parcells wins he'll win for exactly the reason the nominating committee nominated him for... because he deserves it. Given this interchange that's going to be a VERY bitter pill for some to swallow. But it's a still a possibility given the fact that the nominating committee has deemed him "deserving"

Why would it be a 'bitter pill to swallow' for anyone? Do you seriously think I would lose a second of sleep over the Patriots inducting someone into the Hall of Fame that I would choose not to if it were up to me? Really?
Now I see why you are acting so emotionally. Sorry to take such a life or death matter to you and voice my opinion on it. I may as well stop, because it seems you are taking this way, way, way too seriously.

 

[Ring 6]

It was pretty obvious to me and probably everyone else that he was making the point that some people are obsessed by stats and might be swayed by 44,000 yards passing etc...

He's implying that focusing on one such stat one might suggest that Bledsoe had a better career than Brady (if he called it quits today) - but the only people stupid enough to do that are the ones who would be stupid enough to assess Parcells' tenure based on simple W-L record and ignore other more relevant factors

No one is ignoring any of the factors. We are saying your opinion of them is wrong.
You posted as if Kraft paid a ridiculously high price for the Patriots in order to try to make up the 'fact' that Parcells saved the team from being moved, that Kraft only bought the team because of Parcells, and THEREFORE he belongs in the Hall.
After I posted the actual facts of franchise costs, which showed the price was consistent with the market, you refused to respond and started pinning your argument on the nominating committee being infallible and the only legitmate opinion that exists.
It is things like that which make you look silly in this thread.

 

[Ring 6]

Okay, I'm done here, no need to beat a dead animal.

Bottom line:
My criteria for induction in a teams Hall of Fame sets the bar much higher that coaching the team for 4 years, going 32-32 and getting to and losing a SB.
I expect much more than that in order to be forever enshrined among the greatest in the history of the franchise.

I suppose we should be starting another thread extolling the virutes of Terry Glenn and his pending induction in the HOF.

He set a rookie reception record and led us to the SB.
He was here almost 6 years, clearly long enough to qualify, and we made the playoffs in 4 of them. Starting with his rookie year, our pass offense dramatically improved and set the tone for the success of the 2000's.
I certainly hope no one will hold the way he left against him, because that would be petty, and much like a jilted boyfriend.
Besides, if we hadn't picked him, Parcells wouldn't have quit, Grier wouldn't have been fired, and BB would never have been our HC. We surely couldn't have won as many Championships if Terry Glenn had not been here.

GLENN FOR THE HALL!!!!!!!!!

 

[JoeSixPat]

Just "changing the culture" is Not a reason to put someone in a hall of fame. IMO HOF equals 8-10 years of very winning football, hopefully (but not necessarily) a SB.

And yet, in a moment of psychotic breakdown (at least judging on the anti-Parcells posts I've seen here) the selection committee DID proclaim Parcells "deserving of induction into the Patriots Hall of Fame.

This is the fact that AJ nor anyone else can hide from

And we're back to the fact that a committee including many prominent and respected members sees things very differently from anonymous message board fans.

There's a reason why they made that choice, but attempting to explain it to the common denominator is clearly pointless.

 

[RayClay]

And yet, in a moment of psychotic breakdown (at least judging on the anti-Parcells posts I've seen here) the selection committee DID proclaim Parcells "deserving of induction into the Patriots Hall of Fame.

This is the fact that AJ nor anyone else can hide from

And we're back to the fact that a committee including many prominent and respected members sees things very differently from anonymous message board fans.

There's a reason why they made that choice, but attempting to explain it to the common denominator is clearly pointless.

And Ron Burton, of the 1536 career rushing yards.

Each of those yards must have been of the finest quality, for the esteemed nominators to indeed nominate him!

 

[Rob0729]

IYou are talking about the hope of the fans. All that it takes to change that is winning, going .500 for 4 years is not a magical accomplishment, nor is getting to a SB and losing.
The Bucs and Saints recovered fine from those years without Parcells. The contending for a while before someone else gets you to Championships is not a prerequisite.

I am done with this topic, but I did want to address this. We are talking about 1993. That was the first year of free agency and the cap in 1993 NFL, neither Tampa nor the Saints could have turned it around the way they did. They turned around because of free agency and the cap. If there was no free agency or cap, San Deigo would have kept both Brees and Rivers (ala Montana and Young in San Fran). The Cards wouldn't have lost Simeone Rice in free agency to the Bucs.

Yes, those teams turned it around, but well into the era of free agency and the cap. I already said that if the addition of Parcells came a decade later, he wouldn't have had the same effect. Today virtually any team can go from 3-4 wins to a legitimate Super Bowl contender within two years if they do a lot of things right. Back in 1993, that was inconceivable. There were the haves and have nots. Teams were jokes for decades.

 

[Ring 6]

And yet, in a moment of psychotic breakdown (at least judging on the anti-Parcells posts I've seen here) the selection committee DID proclaim Parcells "deserving of induction into the Patriots Hall of Fame.

As I have said over and over and over, this is where the discussion began, the only one arguing this point is you. The rest of us are discussing whether we agree with them.

This is the fact that AJ nor anyone else can hide from

How am I 'hiding from' that, when I posted that I accept it at least half a dozen times.

And we're back to the fact that a committee including many prominent and respected members sees things very differently from anonymous message board fans.

So you will never disagree with the respected members of the media?
Everything they right is something that you, as an anonymous message board fan have no place to disagree with?
Careful what you wish for.

There's a reason why they made that choice, but attempting to explain it to the common denominator is clearly pointless.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ring 6]

I am done with this topic, but I did want to address this. We are talking about 1993. That was the first year of free agency and the cap in 1993 NFL, neither Tampa nor the Saints could have turned it around the way they did. They turned around because of free agency and the cap. If there was no free agency or cap, San Deigo would have kept both Brees and Rivers (ala Montana and Young in San Fran). The Cards wouldn't have lost Simeone Rice in free agency to the Bucs.

Yes, those teams turned it around, but well into the era of free agency and the cap. I already said that if the addition of Parcells came a decade later, he wouldn't have had the same effect. Today virtually any team can go from 3-4 wins to a legitimate Super Bowl contender within two years if they do a lot of things right. Back in 1993, that was inconceivable. There were the haves and have nots. Teams were jokes for decades.

I dont understand your argument. Since free agency had just started, what we did from 1993-2000 should be considered as done outside the free agency era?
Not sure what you are getting at here, but it seems a very long end run of supposition to try to give Parcells credit for success that occured after he left.

 

[JoeSixPat]

As I have said over and over and over, this is where the discussion began, the only one arguing this point is you. The rest of us are discussing whether we agree with them.

How am I 'hiding from' that, when I posted that I accept it at least half a dozen times.

So you will never disagree with the respected members of the media?
Everything they right is something that you, as an anonymous message board fan have no place to disagree with?
Careful what you wish for.

There's a reason why they made that choice, but attempting to explain it to the common denominator is clearly pointless.

You've been misinformed if you think the media - few if any who can be called biased in favor of Parcells since they weren't even here during his tenure - are the only members of the selection committee.

There are staff members and former players as well.

But I'm glad to see you acknowledge that the question of whether Parcells is "deserving of Hall of Fame induction" is decided.

That answer is yes an unequivocal "yes" as decided by a committee of staff, media and former players chosen by the New England Patriots themselves - none of whom are using pseudonyms and would publicly stand behind and defend their choice, regardless of whether you have the ability to comprehend why they made the choice they did.

WHETHER Parcells, although deserving, IS inducted into the Hall of Fame is where YOUR vote counts.

It wouldn't surprise me if some on the selection committee share or at least understand that many in the Patriots fan base will never forgive Parcells for leaving the way he did... but they rose above the "jilted schoolgirl effect" and made a rational assessment to determine Parcells is worthy of the Hall of Fame.

I'd love to see more fans also rise above raw emotions and make the same rational assessment of Parcells of the selection committee. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

 

[Rob0729]

I dont understand your argument. Since free agency had just started, what we did from 1993-2000 should be considered as done outside the free agency era?
Not sure what you are getting at here, but it seems a very long end run of supposition to try to give Parcells credit for success that occured after he left.

Teams cheated the cap for the first four or five years. True free agency didn't really kick in until the late 90s because marquee players were still retained for the first few years of free agency unaware the cap hell they were going to get into years later. Besides we are talking about fans' attitudes towards the Pats not the realities of whether anyone can turn it around.

Parcells gave the Pats legitimacy. Since free agency and the cap was never done before that year, no one knew about the parity that was coming a decade later. Back then, joke teams stayed joked teams for decades with no hope of turning it around. Both Tampa and N'Orleans needed free agency and parity to become legitimate. The Pats did it sooner.

There is no denying the Pats were a joke of the league before Parcells and Parcells renewed the interest in the team. That was significant in the in history of the Patriots. As I said, it is like Namath helped to give legitimacy to the AFL which is why he is in the Hall.

If you want to ignore history and deny what Parcells did to this fanbase when he arrived, that is fine. But Parcells did make a significant impact on the Pats history.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I agree that what they did between 2001-2010 wouldn't be diminished had the 90's gone worse but imo it does enhance the Patriots as a franchise because the fact of the matter is that they are the best team in football over the last 20 years, and the Parcells and Bledsoe era's play major roles in that. I haven't done the math but i'm almost certain no team has won more SB's, more conference championships, more division titles, and more games than the Patriots have in the last 20 years. I don't believe any team has enjoyed more success in the last 20 years but i'd like to see the argument one has. I believe that Parcells and Bledsoe changed the culture of the Patriots and we have enjoyed the fruits of that, they became consistent winners and remain that.

I didn't think Parcells left the Patriots in great shape for Carroll and disliked the whole dog and pony show that became the SB. On the other hand he brought them some of their great winners, e.g...Bruschi, McGinest, Brown, and Faulk and introduced them to Belichik, and i doubt Belichik would ever have become their HC had he not been there during Parcells tenure. Kraft deserves the bulk of the credit for giving up what it took to bring Belichik here but Parcells set the stage for that by bringing him in to start with.


I don't think that a statistical argument supports Parcells in the Patriots HOF but I think he belongs there, on the other hand I think a statistical argument supports Bledsoe for both the Patriots and Pro Football HOF but I believe he only belongs in the Patriots. In short I think there is more to it than simply the numbers and believe Parcells was the beginning of a sea change in NE and should get in for playing such an important role in the Patriots subsequent success. He brought winners and winning to NE and they have been on a roll ever since. I can see the arguments against and they are for the most part sound, i just see it differently. Big shock there.

I made my argument above (Post 144, p15 of this thread) as to why I don't think Parcells belongs in the Pats' HOF and won't repeat it here; if you want to debate my points pls check out what I wrote and reply. To refute a specific argument that you make that doesn't require rehashing what I've already said in the earlier post, I don't think the fact that "Parcells begat Belichick who begat Brady" (thought I'd go "Biblical" during Holy Week and Passover) argues for his presence in Patriot Place. After all, "Orthwein begat Parcells..." could also be argued. Do we put him in for the same reason?

To your point about the "last 20 years," you're right, but the credit belongs virtually entirely to Kraft, Belichick and Brady. If we go back to 1993, when both Parcells and Bledsoe started in New England, the Pats have gone to six Conference Championships and five SB's, winning three (of those, Parcells and Bledsoe to one CCG and one SB with a loss therein). During that same time frame, the only team to rival them is the Steelers, who went to eight CCG's and four SB's, winning two. The fact that the Pats stopped them from reaching their ultimate goal twice pretty well settles any debate as to which team was dominant.

This isn't a "Does Bledsoe belong..." thread, so I won't make any arguments on that subject, other than to state that I believe he belongs in the Pats HOF but not in Canton. Let's keep those arguments for another thread.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Teams cheated the cap for the first four or five years. True free agency didn't really kick in until the late 90s because marquee players were still retained for the first few years of free agency unaware the cap hell they were going to get into years later. Besides we are talking about fans' attitudes towards the Pats not the realities of whether anyone can turn it around.

Parcells gave the Pats legitimacy. Since free agency and the cap was never done before that year, no one knew about the parity that was coming a decade later. Back then, joke teams stayed joked teams for decades with no hope of turning it around. Both Tampa and N'Orleans needed free agency and parity to become legitimate. The Pats did it sooner.

There is no denying the Pats were a joke of the league before Parcells and Parcells renewed the interest in the team. That was significant in the in history of the Patriots. As I said, it is like Namath helped to give legitimacy to the AFL which is why he is in the Hall.

If you want to ignore history and deny what Parcells did to this fanbase when he arrived, that is fine. But Parcells did make a significant impact on the Pats history.

What's been clear in this discussion - as evidenced by so many who've insulted other quality Patriots like Ron Burton - is that most fans can't seem to comprehend why the selection committee makes the decisions they did.

Of course, the selection committee had MANY good reasons for deeming Parcells worthy of the HoF just as they did with Burton.

I didn't vote for Burton when all was said and done, but I understand why they nominated him (just as I've voted for Bledsoe over Parcells).

Clearly others do not have the same ability to understand the reasons why. In Burton's case I think they're looking only at simple statistics and not the context of Burton's place in Patriots history.

In Parcells case I think they're doing the same thing - though in this case it's compounded by the jilted schoolgirl effect.

 

[Garbanza]

You've been misinformed if you think the media - few if any who can be called biased in favor of Parcells since they weren't even here during his tenure - are the only members of the selection committee.

There are staff members and former players as well.

But I'm glad to see you acknowledge that the question of whether Parcells is "deserving of Hall of Fame induction" is decided.

That answer is yes an unequivocal "yes" as decided by a committee of staff, media and former players chosen by the New England Patriots themselves - none of whom are using pseudonyms and would publicly stand behind and defend their choice, regardless of whether you have the ability to comprehend why they made the choice they did.

WHETHER Parcells, although deserving, IS inducted into the Hall of Fame is where YOUR vote counts.

It wouldn't surprise me if some on the selection committee share or at least understand that many in the Patriots fan base will never forgive Parcells for leaving the way he did... but they rose above the "jilted schoolgirl effect" and made a rational assessment to determine Parcells is worthy of the Hall of Fame.

I'd love to see more fans also rise above raw emotions and make the same rational assessment of Parcells of the selection committee. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

So, I am supposed to get behind the Pracells nomination because:

1) Orthwein hires him and gave the Pats credibility.

2) Parcells picked Bledsoe

3) Parcells led them to the playoffs and one superbowl which he tanked (no denying that).

4) He said the famous "buy the groceries" line.

Parcells can go stick a donut where the sun don't shine. If that makes me sound like a jilted schoolgirl, so be it. Any self-resepcting Pats fan would never want that two-faced azzhole in the Pats Hall. As a matter of fact, I'm more willing to put Orthwein in. He's the one that hired Tuna, he's the one that paid Bledsoe, he the one that changed the logo that many hate, but has brought the fans much joy.

 

[JoeSixPat]

So, I am supposed to get behind the Pracells nomination because:

1) Orthwein hires him and gave the Pats credibility.

2) Parcells picked Bledsoe

3) Parcells led them to the playoffs and one superbowl which he tanked (no denying that).

4) He said the famous "buy the groceries" line.

Parcells can go stick a donut where the sun don't shine. If that makes me sound like a jilted schoolgirl, so be it. Any self-resepcting Pats fan would never want that two-faced azzhole in the Pats Hall. As a matter of fact, I'm more willing to put Orthwein in. He's the one that hired Tuna, he's the one that paid Bledsoe, he the one that changed the logo that many hate, but has brought the fans much joy.

There's no sense re-stating all that has been mentioned before. If you're interested there's 5 pages of this thread.

However I do thank you for making clear how fans view the selection with more of an emotional bias than the selection committee.

That's your right if you'd like that to be the main factor in your decision.

It's clear that the selection committee of media, staff and former players did NOT allow such sentiments to alter their decision to declare Parcells deserving of induction into the Patriots Hall of Fame. But nominate him they did.

Many fans are completely unable to fathom why they did. I'm a bit surprised by that because while I don't expect Parcells to get the nod over Bledsoe (I voted for Bledsoe myself) I actually had a high opinion of Patsfans' ability to comprehend the reasons why they nominated him.

Clearly I was wrong.

 

[Garbanza]

There's no sense re-stating all that has been mentioned before. If you're interested there's 5 pages of this thread.

However I do thank you for making clear how fans view the selection with more of an emotional bias than the selection committee.

That's your right if you'd like that to be the main factor in your decision.

It's clear that the selection committee of media, staff and former players did NOT allow such sentiments to alter their decision to declare Parcells deserving of induction into the Patriots Hall of Fame. But nominate him they did.

Many fans are completely unable to fathom why they did. I'm a bit surprised by that because while I don't expect Parcells to get the nod over Bledsoe (I voted for Bledsoe myself) I actually had a high opinion of Patsfans' ability to comprehend the reasons why they nominated him.

Clearly I was wrong.

I love how some fans think their opinion is far superior to other fans'.

Parcells did some wonderful things for the organization and he did some not so wonderful things for the organization. He's not Patriots Hall worthy. He's New York Giants Hall worthy.

I voted for Antwine.

 

[FCB02062]

Parcells in the Pats hall of fame...hmmm...34-34 overall regular seasons record....BUT, took the team to playoffs for the first time in ages AND, under him, the team gained league-wide respect...that 96 team was really good, but it is too bad Tuna F-d the team by thinking about the f#cking NYJ and not concentrating 100% on the game at hand...BUT...I blame Krafty Bob more than I blame Duane Charles, so I say put the man in the Pats Hall of Fame...Just think if the scat back from Yale had kept his Tebucky Jones stopwatch in his pocket and let Tuna control everything I bet things turn out differently. That scenario would make for an interesting Patriots Alternate History - what would have happened if Krafty stuck to the business side and let Tuna handle player personnel...I bet the team wins a SB in 96, 97, or 98, but then Parcells gets bored and quits....then Belichick takes over, they still draft Brady and instead of three trophies the franchise has four. Basically Parcells bridges the Pete Carroll years...

 

[JoeSixPat]

I love how some fans think their opinion is far superior to other fans'.

Parcells did some wonderful things for the organization and he did some not so wonderful things for the organization. He's not Patriots Hall worthy. He's New York Giants Hall worthy.

I voted for Antwine.

I think there's a much better case to be made for Bledsoe over Antwine... but I respect the decision of the Hall of Fame Selection Committee and understand why they feel all three are worthy.

We're not talking about superior opinions... we're talking about fans ability or inability to comprehend why the selection committee feels each are worthy.

I'm confident that you too can comprehend the decisions why they nominated all three.

Parcells, for his part, is taking a wise "surprised/flattered" stance on his nomination, though does acknowledge some of the aspects that were likely one of many points of consideration by the nominating committee... including his role in choosing Bledsoe over Mirer (many Patsfans questioned that move at the time) not to mention selections of Troy Brown, Tedy Bruschi, Curtis Martin, Adam Vinatieri, and Terry Glenn that helped turn a 1-15 team on the cusp of being sold and moved to St. Louis into a Super Bowl team in just 4 years.

I know that doesn't sound like much today but back then, it was pretty significant.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2011/04/parcells_flatte.html

 

[Garbanza]

I think there's a much better case to be made for Bledsoe over Antwine... but I respect the decision of the Hall of Fame Selection Committee and understand why they feel all three are worthy.

We're not talking about superior opinions... we're talking about fans ability or inability to comprehend why the selection committee feels each are worthy.

I'm confident that you too can comprehend the decisions why they nominated all three.

Parcells, for his part, is taking a wise "surprised/flattered" stance on his nomination, though does acknowledge some of the aspects that were likely one of many points of consideration by the nominating committee... including his role in choosing Bledsoe over Mirer (many Patsfans questioned that move at the time) not to mention selections of Troy Brown, Tedy Bruschi, Curtis Martin, Adam Vinatieri, and Terry Glenn that helped turn a 1-15 team on the cusp of being sold and moved to St. Louis into a Super Bowl team in just 4 years.

Yes, I understand it, but I'm not voting for him - ever. Is that emotional? Mostly.

Personally, I think Parcells was a good coach and a superior motivator/leader.....but look at his record overall. I think people make more of it than it really was. He bails on teams when is suits him. His ability to buy the groceries is no better or no worse than most grocery shoppers. Put it this way, his reputation is BIG....bigger than the coach himself.

btw -

he also cut Troy Brown, Stole Cumart and did not want Terry Glenn...remember, First Round Wide Out was not on the grocery list.