Is Marvin Austin the answer in round two

[tricktak]

If the Patriots do take Ingram at 17 and if Wilkerson is gone at 28 maybe they wait til the beginning of the second and grab Marvin Austin. I could see them taking Pouncey or trading the pick at 28. Austin has a couple of issues but is a first round talent who some consider to be a steal in round two and would be a great fit for the patriots at defensive end. Austin is much less of a risk than Kenrick Ellis.

 

[Patriot Missile]

If the Patriots do take Ingram at 17 and if Wilkerson is gone at 28 maybe they wait til the beginning of the second and grab Marvin Austin. I could see them taking Pouncey or trading the pick at 28. Austin has a couple of issues but is a first round talent who some consider to be a steal in round two and would be a great fit for the patriots at defensive end. Austin is much less of a risk than Kenrick Ellis.

Good call. He may be a name people should remember come draft day. I think there is a quiet interest in the kid who may be hoping stays quiet until draft day.

 

[chevss454]

@RobRang: Disagree strongly but growing consensus that Alabama RB Mark Ingram is going to slip right out of 1st round.

 

[MaineMan]

I like Austin as a player and believe he's currently way underrated - as a 4-3 DT. Some team, maybe DEN at #36, is going to get an absolute steal there.

However, at 6'2", I really don't think he has the length that BB is looking for in an RDE and that's way too early to take a guy for 40-front sub-packages. OTOH, if BB is giving up on Brace and less than enthused about Love and thinks Austin can add about 20 lbs and play NT well, I could see that happening. Maybe. But not for a 30-front DE in BB's scheme. Austin may be able to get bulkier, but he can't get taller.

 

[DW Toys]

I like Austin as a player and believe he's currently way underrated - as a 4-3 DT. Some team, maybe DEN at #36, is going to get an absolute steal there.

However, at 6'2", I really don't think he has the length that BB is looking for in an RDE and that's way too early to take a guy for 40-front sub-packages. OTOH, if BB is giving up on Brace and less than enthused about Love and thinks Austin can add about 20 lbs and play NT well, I could see that happening. Maybe. But not for a 30-front DE in BB's scheme. Austin may be able to get bulkier, but he can't get taller.

Don't we already have him in Brace and Pryor? Can't believe he is that much more talented. The 6'2" DT /DE is not a need unless he is BPA. Brace is 6'4" and seems to be getting it. I like Austin but he has a similar game to those two.
DW Toys

 

[tricktak]

Don't we already have him in Brace and Pryor? Can't believe he is that much more talented. The 6'2" DT /DE is not a need unless he is BPA. Brace is 6'4" and seems to be getting it. I like Austin but he has a similar game to those two.
DW Toys

Pryor is good but Brace has done absolutely nothing since he's been in the league and did nothing in college as well. I don't know why the patriots even used a second round pick on him, coming out of boston college he looked like no better than a fourth round pick for a team desperate for a nose tackle. Brace's talents can't even be compared to Austins'. His height may not matter as much as well, Austin is a very strong player, capable of taking on double teams. I am tired of waiting for Brace to suddenly become something he will never be. He gets no pressure on the quarterback and is no more than a mere space eater on the line.

 

[MaineMan]

Don't we already have him in Brace and Pryor? Can't believe he is that much more talented. The 6'2" DT /DE is not a need unless he is BPA. Brace is 6'4" and seems to be getting it. I like Austin but he has a similar game to those two.
DW Toys

I have Brace at 6034 and Pryor at just a smidge over 6'1". But I agree with your point.

Brace, I believe was specifically drafted as a reserve NT/utility DT-DE at a time when, perhaps, Wilfork's future with the Pats was still a bit uncertain. Brace's development has been slow, but he did seem to make some progress this season in spite of being thrown into extreme circumstances. The only question would be whether or not is was ENOUGH progress for BB, though I tend to think so.

Pryor, OTOH, I think was draft specifically for the 40-front "sub-packages" that BB knew we'd be playing extensively until he could refill the 30-front LDE spot properly. Pryor could survive the retrenchment away from extensive 40-front deployments (that I believe is coming) as an interior sub-rusher (ala, Mike Wright). But he's relatively expendable.

Austin has much more talent that Pryor, I think, but his "natural" position is probably about to be significantly scaled back with the 2011 Pats D-line. Which is what I was saying - the only way Austin makes sense is if (A) BB is after all dissatisfied with Brace, and (B) Austin could reasonably add the weight an play NT better than Brace. Both things seem unlikely to me.

 

[tricktak]

I have Brace at 6034 and Pryor at just a smidge over 6'1". But I agree with your point.

Brace, I believe was specifically drafted as a reserve NT/utility DT-DE at a time when, perhaps, Wilfork's future with the Pats was still a bit uncertain. Brace's development has been slow, but he did seem to make some progress this season in spite of being thrown into extreme circumstances. The only question would be whether or not is was ENOUGH progress for BB, though I tend to think so.

Pryor, OTOH, I think was draft specifically for the 40-front "sub-packages" that BB knew we'd be playing extensively until he could refill the 30-front LDE spot properly. Pryor could survive the retrenchment away from extensive 40-front deployments (that I believe is coming) as an interior sub-rusher (ala, Mike Wright). But he's relatively expendable.

Austin has much more talent that Pryor, I think, but his "natural" position is probably about to be significantly scaled back with the 2011 Pats D-line. Which is what I was saying - the only way Austin makes sense is if (A) BB is after all dissatisfied with Brace, and (B) Austin could reasonably add the weight an play NT better than Brace. Both things seem unlikely to me.

Kyle Love made a lot of progress last year and can probably overtake or replace Brace as a backup nose tackle. Like I said Brace just eats up space, if not Marvin Austin, the patriots still need to find an impact defensive lineman eary in the draft, Brace isn't the answer.

 

[bucky]

I have Brace at 6034 and Pryor at just a smidge over 6'1". But I agree with your point.

Brace, I believe was specifically drafted as a reserve NT/utility DT-DE at a time when, perhaps, Wilfork's future with the Pats was still a bit uncertain. Brace's development has been slow, but he did seem to make some progress this season in spite of being thrown into extreme circumstances. The only question would be whether or not is was ENOUGH progress for BB, though I tend to think so.

Pryor, OTOH, I think was draft specifically for the 40-front "sub-packages" that BB knew we'd be playing extensively until he could refill the 30-front LDE spot properly. Pryor could survive the retrenchment away from extensive 40-front deployments (that I believe is coming) as an interior sub-rusher (ala, Mike Wright). But he's relatively expendable.

Austin has much more talent that Pryor, I think, but his "natural" position is probably about to be significantly scaled back with the 2011 Pats D-line. Which is what I was saying - the only way Austin makes sense is if (A) BB is after all dissatisfied with Brace, and (B) Austin could reasonably add the weight an play NT better than Brace. Both things seem unlikely to me.

I totally agree on Austin. He's a 4-3 DT exclusively.

I also totally agree on Pryor. Let's not forget he was a 6th round pick. And as much as I'd love to upgrade Pryor in the sub package, I certainly don't want to do it with a top 70 pick. If Austin is still there at 92, and he checks our character-wise, and we haven't drafted a 3 down DE yet, I'd certainly consider him as a Pryor upgrade.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Kyle Love made a lot of progress last year and can probably overtake or replace Brace as a backup nose tackle. Like I said Brace just eats up space, if not Marvin Austin, the patriots still need to find an impact defensive lineman eary in the draft, Brace isn't the answer.

But neither is Austin. And certainly not early in round 2. There are better NT/DT backup prospects in this year's draft that fit the Pats system.

 

[Sciz]

4-3 DT or 1-gap 3-4 DE. Only a subpackage guy for the Pats.

 

[MaineMan]

Kyle Love made a lot of progress last year and can probably overtake or replace Brace as a backup nose tackle. Like I said Brace just eats up space, if not Marvin Austin, the patriots still need to find an impact defensive lineman eary in the draft, Brace isn't the answer.

Well, the whole point of a 3-4 NT is to "eat up space", blockers and close gaps. Attacking and getting pressure is secondary. It's hard to say how well Brace has developed in that role since he was playing an entirely different role in 2010's temporary scheme. Austin, in any case, is more of a "slide through the gap" attacker.

So, if Brace "isn't the answer" and Austin is the answer, perhaps we're working two different questions.

 

[tricktak]

But neither is Austin. And certainly not early in round 2. There are better NT/DT backup prospects in this year's draft that fit the Pats system.

I said impact defensive lineman, not specifically austin.

 

[Off The Grid]

Kyle Love made a lot of progress last year and can probably overtake or replace Brace as a backup nose tackle. Like I said Brace just eats up space, if not Marvin Austin, the patriots still need to find an impact defensive lineman eary in the draft, Brace isn't the answer.

Well, the whole point of a 3-4 NT is to "eat up space", blockers and close gaps. Attacking and getting pressure is secondary. It's hard to say how well Brace has developed in that role since he was playing an entirely different role in 2010's temporary scheme. Austin, in any case, is more of a "slide through the gap" attacker.

So, if Brace "isn't the answer" and Austin is the answer, perhaps we're working two different questions.

Chuckles aside, Brother Maine, I'm intrigued by your theme about stressing how patched up last year's D was.

I think it's an important point to stress, as many seem to be concluding that last year's adjustments portend a Systemic Shift.

Hell...They may even be right.

...Although I'm not inclined to think so, it's only an educated guess.

 

[tricktak]

Well, the whole point of a 3-4 NT is to "eat up space", blockers and close gaps. Attacking and getting pressure is secondary. It's hard to say how well Brace has developed in that role since he was playing an entirely different role in 2010's temporary scheme. Austin, in any case, is more of a "slide through the gap" attacker.

So, if Brace "isn't the answer" and Austin is the answer, perhaps we're working two different questions.

what is wrong with you people. I'm trying to say Brace isn't the answer at defensive end and we simply don't need him as a backup nose tackle because love is just as good. The fact that they even used a second round pick on a BACKUP nose tackle or even a replacement for Wilfork in that matter is just astounding to me. If they were consered about Wilfork they could've waited til later in the draft to take a nose tackle. Now they're stuck with Brace, who shows up overweight and unproductive.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

what is wrong with you people. I'm trying to say Brace isn't the answer at defensive end and we simply don't need him as a backup nose tackle because love is just as good. The fact that they even used a second round pick on a BACKUP nose tackle or even a replacement for Wilfork in that matter is just astounding to me. If they were consered about Wilfork they could've waited til later in the draft to take a nose tackle. Now they're stuck with Brace, who shows up overweight and unproductive.

While most draftniks projected Brace to NT in NE's system, it's worth noting that early Training Camp reports had him working mostly at DE ... suggesting the coaching staff had at least considered him for more than one position before making the selection. I disagree that Brace is instantly upgradeable at DE, he's been slower to improve than Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork before him, yet he was also taken a round later which suggests NE anticipated his development time. The player I watched at LDE last season needs to make another major leap to match Ty Warren, and I think the talent is there, we'll see if he has continued to work at his craft in the off-season and is ready to move to a higher level.

Meanwhile, back to your Austin suggestion. I agree. He may be coming from a one-gap scheme, but that doesn't mean he's limited there. I read one report earlier this morning which downplayed his penetration into the backfield and felt he'd be better as a run stuffer at the line. He's not my highest rated second round projection, but he's getting the third degree from NE precisely because he has some exploitable talent for the NE system.

 

[MaineMan]

what is wrong with you people. I'm trying to say Brace isn't the answer at defensive end and we simply don't need him as a backup nose tackle because love is just as good. The fact that they even used a second round pick on a BACKUP nose tackle or even a replacement for Wilfork in that matter is just astounding to me. If they were consered about Wilfork they could've waited til later in the draft to take a nose tackle. Now they're stuck with Brace, who shows up overweight and unproductive.

My apologies. It wasn't clear to me what you were referring back to from earlier posts, and then I compounded my own misunderstanding by discussing Austin as an interior player. I absolutely agree that Brace is no "answer" at DE.

It does seem an open question as to whether we need a pure backup NT now, but at the time with Wilfork entering his contract year, there may have been a sense in the FO at the time that negotiations might go sideways in the following off-season (the way they maybe had already started to unravel with Mankins there in 2009). So they may not have been projecting Brace just as a backup, but potentially as a replacement. With THAT in mind, legit NT candidates might have narrowed down for them and they may not have wanted to trust a potential starting role to, say, Terrance Knighton (3rd round) or Sammie Lee Hill (5th?).

WRT Love v. Brace, it seems to me that Brace was a bit more effective than Love, but I'd agree that it was close. OTOH, Brace already has the required bulk (6'3"+/328) and wears it well. I honestly don't know whether Love (6'1"/315) can get much bigger. Chances are, though, that one or the other won't make the final roster, unless Love is preferred to Pryor or Deaderick, etc.

 

[MaineMan]

While most draftniks projected Brace to NT in NE's system, it's worth noting that early Training Camp reports had him working mostly at DE ... suggesting the coaching staff had at least considered him for more than one position before making the selection. I disagree that Brace is instantly upgradeable at DE, he's been slower to improve than Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork before him, yet he was also taken a round later which suggests NE anticipated his development time. The player I watched at LDE last season needs to make another major leap to match Ty Warren, and I think the talent is there, we'll see if he has continued to work at his craft in the off-season and is ready to move to a higher level.

Meanwhile, back to your Austin suggestion. I agree. He may be coming from a one-gap scheme, but that doesn't mean he's limited there. I read one report earlier this morning which downplayed his penetration into the backfield and felt he'd be better as a run stuffer at the line. He's not my highest rated second round projection, but he's getting the third degree from NE precisely because he has some exploitable talent for the NE system.

I liked what I read about Austin from various Shrine Game scouting reports and his interview quotes. Seemed like a heady, effort guy. The notes were unanimously positive about his power and explosion and everybody but Bunting liked his "quick and violent" hands (Bunting thought he lacked good technique). But, of course, most observers were focused on his ability to penetrate and nearly all of them noted how he wasn't quite in football shape yet (at that point). There was one note, though, about how he kept track of the ball well and would easily shed a TE to stuff the RB on running plays. So, there you go.

I'm not quite sure where he'd fit in the scheme. However, if he's still on the board at #60, he might be the type of value prospect to just grab and figure out what to do with him later.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm not quite sure where he'd fit in the scheme. However, if he's still on the board at #60, he might be the type of value prospect to just grab and figure out what to do with him later.

I don't like to spend 2nd round picks on guys who don't fit. You don't 'figure out what to do with him later' otherwise you've wasted a pick that you could have used on another player who would be productive in your system. What does Marvin Austin project to in the New England system? NT? Too light. DE? Too short. Generic Backup DL? We've got half a dozen of those already on the roster.

Austin has to bring something valuable to the defense that would upgrade it to make him worth the pick. Otherwise use the pick where it would help like say upgrade the Interior OL with an OG/C prospect, or get a stretch the field WR, or how about one of those OLB prospects everyone is clamoring for? Someone tell me where he fits into this defense and potentially UPGRADES it.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't like to spend 2nd round picks on guys who don't fit. You don't 'figure out what to do with him later' otherwise you've wasted a pick that you could have used on another player who would be productive in your system. What does Marvin Austin project to in the New England system? NT? Too light. DE? Too short. Generic Backup DL? We've got half a dozen of those already on the roster.

Austin has to bring something valuable to the defense that would upgrade it to make him worth the pick. Otherwise use the pick where it would help like say upgrade the Interior OL with an OG/C prospect, or get a stretch the field WR, or how about one of those OLB prospects everyone is clamoring for? Someone tell me where he fits into this defense and potentially UPGRADES it.

Very well.

-- First, a paradigm shift: NE has successfully deployed a starting 6'1 1/4" DE, and has been successful with reserve DEs in the neighborhood of 6'3". The preference for 6'5" or better still exists, but isn't an automatic disqualifier should the prospect bring other strengths to the position and team.
-- At present Marvin Austin is a research project who shot himself in the foot last year and is being thoroughly vetted due to his overall talent. All reporting of NE interest in him is to determine if he even belongs on their final board, and what if any "issues" might adjust his final standing relative to other prospects in the same range.
-- We anticipate NE using their base 3-4, it's what they do. At the same time, the demand for 3-4 capable prospects is growing. There is nothing published to indicate if NE is staying with the 3-4; as a corollary, with 57% sub-package rate last season and over 50% for the two prior seasons, the demand for 40 front prospects has increased, even at the risk of reducing the effectiveness of the 30 front.
-- Kyle Love played at a reported 310 last season, 5 lbs less then his Pro-Day weigh-in. Marvin Austin's Combine weigh-in was 309, he was pretty impressive athletically at that weight. Of course, for his Pro-Day he was taller 6'2 1/8" v. 6'1 1/2", and lighter, 301. It appears a reserve NT can play the position at 310 ... Mike Wright was effective at 295.

Marvin Austin, should he remain on NE's final draft board, may not be considered a good value at #33, perhaps Caserio & Co. will slot him higher, perhaps lower, but it appears he plays football well enough to warrant further research to see "if" he will play football or spend his time in less helpful pursuits.

Of course, I'm the crazy guy who thinks 6'1 1/4" Stephen Paea could play DE in NE's 3-4.