I Don't Get It

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

He's debating with a half dozen different people but not really persuading anyone else. He has never criticized this management ever, and always makes threads supporting management after any big move.

How does this have anything to do with supporting management.
I am saying that if Moss was giving 100% and BB traded him for a pick in the 90s then it was one of the worst trades ever, and BB should have personell duties taken away from him.
You appear to be saying that this is what BB did.
If you are right I will be more critical of management that anyone who ever commented on it.
I don't understand how:

Moss asks to be traded
Moss gave up on the Raiders in order to get traded, and did about the same in Minnesota to a lesser degree
Moss' effort has been questioned his entire career
Opponents are saying he dogged it
There are reports he fought with the OC, the HC, and the QB
His production this year was 45% of what it has been
Since Moss has been here he has been the focal point of the offense

can all be dismissed and the conclusion is that Moss was giving it everything he had, and BB just decided he was a useless football player.

What sense could that possibly make.

What I am saying is that if Randy Moss was dedicated to the success of the 2010 Patriots, as he is supposed to be, he would still be a Patriot. We are a worse team without a committed Moss, and a better one without a Moss looking to cause problems.
We would have a better year if Moss had committed to this team, he didnt and he is the reason he is gone.
What do you disagree with there?

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

So far this season Moss has been on the field for more plays than any other skill position player (beside Brady of course). So our coach continues to give the most playing time to an obvious quitter? Are you saying BB is is afraid to sit down a guy who is quitting on the team? If you are correct then Moss shouldn't have been on the field at all against Miami let alone in for the most plays.

Well, it would appear he was there as a decoy. He did more than bench him, he basically gave him away.
BB said that the team is better if Randy Moss doesnt exist. You think that is based on what the team would be if Moss was giving it all he had?

I'm curious. Do you think Moss was a good citizen, good teammate, good lockerroom influence, and went 100% on the field, yet BB thought he was worthless to the team? How does that add up?

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

I STATED that Moss did not go 100% on that play.
I said that the day after. I also said I recognize that can be part of his game.
I didnt bring Cromartie and Revis into the discussion, I simply pointed out that to throw them out as unreliable is shaky when they have never said that about others, and MANY including Moss himself have said that about Moss.
The bottom line is that if Moss was 100% committed to this team he would be here. A moron could figure that out. BB would NEVER in a million years trade Moss in season for a 3rd round pick if he believed Moss was committed to the team. Why you can't see that I don't know, but I'm glad your are happy for Randy that his ploy to screw the PAtriots to get $$ somewhere else worked out for him.

So in your opinion then, why did Moss not go 100% on a play, 1 on 1 in which he knew he'd get the ball... in a contract year?

 

[Patters]

Re: I Dont Get It

You know, Andy, imagine if your boss led you to believe that he would let you go at the end of the year (even though he knew you would get a job with the competition), wouldn't you feel a little discouraged? I mean Moss is the guy who got in trouble for giving his team a pep talk during the national anthem. It seems to me his heart was in the right place, but he wasn't 100% present. That doesn't mean he was ill-intentioned. It simply means he's an emotional player, which is hard to dispute.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

Well, it would appear he was there as a decoy. He did more than bench him, he basically gave him away.
BB said that the team is better if Randy Moss doesnt exist. You think that is based on what the team would be if Moss was giving it all he had?

I'm curious. Do you think Moss was a good citizen, good teammate, good lockerroom influence, and went 100% on the field, yet BB thought he was worthless to the team? How does that add up?

Again, your logic is absolutely terrible. He traded a guy because he was "QUITTING" yet he kept playing him more than anyone else.

BB is NOT saying the team is better if Moss didn't exist, nor was he saying the team is better if Law, Milloy, Seymour, Samuel etc... didn't exist.

And quit posing stupid arse questions like "why did he feel moss was worthless to the team". That can't be answered because BB did NOT feel Moss was worthless to the team.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

So in your opinion then, why did Moss not go 100% on a play, 1 on 1 in which he knew he'd get the ball... in a contract year?

I watched the play. Moss will outrun Cromartie on that play any time he wants to. He didnt. Its not opinion, its fact.
I said when it happened he probably didnt think he was getting the ball.
Contact year has nothing to do with it. Moss did not want to be here. He made that clear. Whether it was outright malingering or just a lack of enthusiasm I dont begin to pretend to know.

I am saying regardless of that play, or any other, if Moss were bought into this team and not creating problems with effort or attitude he would still be here.
He is not here because the team did not believe it would get 100% from him.
That play was an example of one that I saw where I questioned that. It was not the smoking gun. The smoking gun was the trade.

Once again, I will ask. Do you think BB would trade a Randy Moss that was committed to the success of this team for the paltry return he got?

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

Again, your logic is absolutely terrible. He traded a guy because he was "QUITTING" yet he kept playing him more than anyone else.

BB is NOT saying the team is better if Moss didn't exist, nor was he saying the team is better if Law, Milloy, Seymour, Samuel etc... didn't exist.

And quit posing stupid arse questions like "why did he feel moss was worthless to the team". That can't be answered because BB did NOT feel Moss was worthless to the team.

BB said he wants to win now./
BB got nothing in return to make the team better now.
A 3rd round pick is next to nothing.

Do you think this was a good trade for the Patriots?
A pass oriented team trading its top weapon for a 3rd round pick next year. That is a good move?

 

[skinnydog]

Re: I Dont Get It

Well, it would appear he was there as a decoy. He did more than bench him, he basically gave him away.
BB said that the team is better if Randy Moss doesnt exist. You think that is based on what the team would be if Moss was giving it all he had?

I'm curious. Do you think Moss was a good citizen, good teammate, good lockerroom influence, and went 100% on the field, yet BB thought he was worthless to the team? How does that add up?

He was a better citizen that a hell of a lot of other wide receivers in the game. I sure didn't think he quit on that TD he had over Revas. I didn't think he quit as a decoy. Wide receivers a group are messed up. They all ask for the ball when they don;t get it if they are any good. Apparently we are thinking about bringing back a receiver who did quit on the team, Branch. He quit and we sure could have used him in the playoffs that year.

Moss is not what he was in 07, why is that so hard to figure out. But he still was a great decoy and could still get deep on occasion and still get open at the back of the endzone or front of the endzone as he did against the Bills in a crowd of DBs.

What I fault BB for is apparently not anticipating this situation. Moss is weird and insecure and always has been. There's no excuse for not having a backup plan better than going with a bunch of rookies 4 games intot he season.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

He was a better citizen that a hell of a lot of other wide receivers in the game. I sure didn't think he quit on that TD he had over Revas. I didn't think he quit as a decoy. Wide receivers a group are messed up. They all ask for the ball when they don;t get it if they are any good. Apparently we are thinking about bringing back a receiver who did quit on the team, Branch. He quit and we sure could have used him in the playoffs that year.

Moss is not what he was in 07, why is that so hard to figure out. But he still was a great decoy and could still get deep on occasion and still get open at the back of the endzone or front of the endzone as he did against the Bills in a crowd of DBs.

What I fault BB for is apparently not anticipating this situation. Moss is weird and insecure and always has been. There's no excuse for not having a backup plan better than going with a bunch of rookies 4 games intot he season.

Are you saying BB traded Moss because Moss asked him, so BB decided to hurt the team and make Randy happy?
Thats the issue I am driving at. If Moss did not misbehave in whatever fashion it happened to be in order to force BB to sacrifice his ability for the sake of the lockerroom, or the reliability of who he puts on the field, then he would be here.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

You know, Andy, imagine if your boss led you to believe that he would let you go at the end of the year (even though he knew you would get a job with the competition), wouldn't you feel a little discouraged? I mean Moss is the guy who got in trouble for giving his team a pep talk during the national anthem. It seems to me his heart was in the right place, but he wasn't 100% present. That doesn't mean he was ill-intentioned. It simply means he's an emotional player, which is hard to dispute.

I dont know how he got in trouble for giving a pep talk, you'll have to fill me in on that.

I don't understand what you are saying.
Are you saying he did stop giving 100% but you understand why and forgive him? Not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just not getting it.

Wouldn't it have to be something more severe than being an emotional person to cause this.

I mean we had one of the top few greatest WRs in NFL history, who appears to still be able to play at a top 5 level, and whatever happened behind closed doors, in the lockerroom, on tape or in the huddle caused Bill Belichick to say a third round pick next year minus a 7th is more valuable than having that talent on the field.

Read that paragraph and explain to me how any sane person could not think there were extenuating actions by Moss that made BB sour on him and feel he wasn't going to use that ability to help the team win.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

I watched the play. Moss will outrun Cromartie on that play any time he wants to. He didnt. Its not opinion, its fact.

Right, Andy, from the TV feed that shows PART of the play you know the precise speeds of Cromartie and Moss in 2010.

I said when it happened he probably didnt think he was getting the ball.

You also said it was a normal decision by Brady and he will make that throw ALL the time. Which is in DIRECT conflict with the statement that Moss didn't think he was getting the ball.

Contact year has nothing to do with it. Moss did not want to be here. He made that clear. Whether it was outright malingering or just a lack of enthusiasm I dont begin to pretend to know.

Once again that's completely false and illogical. A guy that does NOT want to be here at all will hold out. Not play almost every offensive snap. BB will also not play a guy every offensive snap if he QUITs on the team as you continually accuse him of doing. And again you ignore Davis' comments

I am saying regardless of that play, or any other, if Moss were bought into this team and not creating problems with effort or attitude he would still be here.
He is not here because the team did not believe it would get 100% from him.
That play was an example of one that I saw where I questioned that. It was not the smoking gun. The smoking gun was the trade.

Please stop pretending to know a damn thing about why the team traded him. Honestly, you have so many holes in your logic it's getting tiring pointing them out. Unless you want to go on record as having inside information?

Once again, I will ask. Do you think BB would trade a Randy Moss that was committed to the success of this team for the paltry return he got?

YES when you include ALL of the other factors discussed ad nauseam that you choose to ignore.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

BB said he wants to win now./
BB got nothing in return to make the team better now.
A 3rd round pick is next to nothing.

So now we get to use BB's words? Because BB also said that Moss was never a problem. Do you honestly believe that the mission statement has changed?

Do you think this was a good trade for the Patriots?

On the field for 2010, not necessarily at least not for the next 8-10 weeks. Who knows what their plan is but a ball control offense with good blocking receivers and less predictability may be better later in the year.

A pass oriented team trading its top weapon for a 3rd round pick next year. That is a good move?

A team that is witnessing a shift in offensive strategy that relies less on Moss' greatest attributes. Can you stop pretending that we are using the same gameplans as 2007.

PS: There's not a single trade for draft picks that is done to make the team better that season.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

Right, Andy, from the TV feed that shows PART of the play you know the precise speeds of Cromartie and Moss in 2010.

I never said that. I said that it is pretty widely understood that when Ran dy Moss is within a step of a corner with no safety help while the corners hips are still 45 degrees to the sideline at about the 40, Tom Brady would expect Moss to beat that defender to a deep ball thrown to about the 3, every time. Cromartie would have to be way, way faster than Moss to finish the turn then run the 37 yards with him and be further ahead when they got there if both went full out. Just watch the TD catch, then this play, and tell me thats the same guy running at top speed both times.
The play isnt when they come back in the screen its before they leave it. Brady makes the decision to throw then, and I guarantee you that position is exactly what he is looking for to know Moss has the advantage.

You also said it was a normal decision by Brady and he will make that throw ALL the time. Which is in DIRECT conflict with the statement that Moss didn't think he was getting the ball.

I dont know whether Moss thought he was getting the ball or not. I suppose he wasnt the first option. See its the entire route. He surely realized the ball was coming by the 35, but he cruised through the route before that. That is where he lost the advantage. With him running less than full out, Cromartie was able to GAIN ground while turning his hips, its over then. You gain the advantage when you can go full out and the corner cant because he is making the hip turn.

Once again that's completely false and illogical. A guy that does NOT want to be here at all will hold out.

Why? IT would cost him over a 1/2 mill a game to hold out. Better to show up, be lackadaisical lose trust and get traded. It worked in Oakland, didnt it?

Not play almost every offensive snap. BB will also not play a guy every offensive snap if he QUITs on the team as you continually accuse him of doing. And again you ignore Davis' comments

I'm not relying on Revis or Cromarties statements so I could care less abot Davis' either. The proof is he didnt go hard enough to even catch a pass. What do you want Davis to say?:I shut Moss out, but its only because he quit on his routes?" Yeah, right.

Please stop pretending to know a damn thing about why the team traded him. Honestly, you have so many holes in your logic it's getting tiring pointing them out. Unless you want to go on record as having inside information?

Its just common sense. Unless I accept BB is a moron, he didn't trade Moss for football reasons if Moss did not detract in some other way.
It would be idiotic.

YES when you include ALL of the other factors discussed ad nauseam that you choose to ignore.

What factors?
You are telling me that Randy Moss giving it everything he has got, being a good soldier is worth less to this team than a draft pick next year in the 3rd round, instead of a comp pick we would get if he leaves after?
Do you really think Moss sucks?

 

[mgteich]

I guess that Brady isn't a good enough QB and belichick isn't a good enough coach to be able to get much out of Moss this year. Perhaps the vikings will be able to better deal with one of the best receivers in football. For the patriots, apparently Belichick and Brady would rather Brady throw to Tate and Edelman, as an alternative to Welker.

The value to the patriots of Moss is as a decoy. Our offense is the best in the league. After all, we were one of the best in the league last year. Brady is now healthy. And now we have have better running backs than last year (having dumped Maroney) and better receivers (since what must be more effective than Moss).

 

[Patters]

Re: I Dont Get It

I dont know how he got in trouble for giving a pep talk, you'll have to fill me in on that.

He was criticized by a lot of newspapers and some political blogs, but my point was that he's so emotional, he doesn't always think straight.

I don't understand what you are saying.
Are you saying he did stop giving 100% but you understand why and forgive him? Not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just not getting it.

Wouldn't it have to be something more severe than being an emotional person to cause this.

I mean we had one of the top few greatest WRs in NFL history, who appears to still be able to play at a top 5 level, and whatever happened behind closed doors, in the lockerroom, on tape or in the huddle caused Bill Belichick to say a third round pick next year minus a 7th is more valuable than having that talent on the field.

Read that paragraph and explain to me how any sane person could not think there were extenuating actions by Moss that made BB sour on him and feel he wasn't going to use that ability to help the team win.

I think it's more complicated than that, and I don't think we will ever know the answer. I think Randy probably played the best he could, and I think he was generally highly regarded by the Pats; but I also think he wanted to negotiate a trade when a long-term contract didn't seem like a possibility. I don't think he played dishonest games on the field, but I think he played hardball in his public pronouncements. I'm disappointed to see him leave, but frankly BB, Moss, and others seem to have glowing words for each other so it strikes me that the disputes that are now being reported were anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

So now we get to use BB's words? Because BB also said that Moss was never a problem. Do you honestly believe that the mission statement has changed?



On the field for 2010, not necessarily at least not for the next 8-10 weeks. Who knows what their plan is but a ball control offense with good blocking receivers and less predictability may be better later in the year.



A team that is witnessing a shift in offensive strategy that relies less on Moss' greatest attributes. Can you stop pretending that we are using the same gameplans as 2007.

PS: There's not a single trade for draft picks that is done to make the team better that season.

Ok. There is absolutely no reason to continue this conversation.
You feel an offensive football team is better off without Randy Moss, when he is giving 100%.
Lets trade Brady too so we can REALLY become ball control.
If you think the value of that 3rd round pick is greater than what a fully committed Randy Moss would give this football team, if he were not an attitide of effort problme, you have shown that you are not worth the time to discuss.
any further discussion would only get nasty, so lets agree to disagree. I think Moss is a valuable footballl player if his head is on straight and its not, you think Moss is a great guybut doesnt help a football team much.
I can't do anything with that.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

I never said that. I said that it is pretty widely understood that when Ran dy Moss is within a step of a corner with no safety help while the corners hips are still 45 degrees to the sideline at about the 40, Tom Brady would expect Moss to beat that defender to a deep ball thrown to about the 3, every time. Cromartie would have to be way, way faster than Moss to finish the turn then run the 37 yards with him and be further ahead when they got there if both went full out. Just watch the TD catch, then this play, and tell me thats the same guy running at top speed both times.
The play isnt when they come back in the screen its before they leave it. Brady makes the decision to throw then, and I guarantee you that position is exactly what he is looking for to know Moss has the advantage

Outright lying does not help your case. Cromartie is one step ahead of Moss at every single point the camera shows them. When they leave view of the camera Cromartie is fully turned. No DB will have their shoulders square to the endzone while covering the WR. I've linked the video, you are the only one in the universe still trying to claim Cromartie was still turning his hips.

I dont know whether Moss thought he was getting the ball or not. I suppose he wasnt the first option. See its the entire route. He surely realized the ball was coming by the 35, but he cruised through the route before that. That is where he lost the advantage. With him running less than full out, Cromartie was able to GAIN ground while turning his hips, its over then. You gain the advantage when you can go full out and the corner cant because he is making the hip turn.

You're still 100% wrong on each and everything you say about that play and I've linked the video multiple times. I thought you knew your football but this is just getting absurd.

Once again if Brady throws that ball to him every time as you have ALREADY CLAIMED, then how would Moss not be sure he was getting the ball?

Why? IT would cost him over a 1/2 mill a game to hold out. Better to show up, be lackadaisical lose trust and get traded. It worked in Oakland, didnt it?

That's not what happened.

I'm not relying on Revis or Cromarties statements so I could care less abot Davis' either. The proof is he didnt go hard enough to even catch a pass. What do you want Davis to say?:I shut Moss out, but its only because he quit on his routes?" Yeah, right.

So what Cromartie said is OK but what Davis said is "yeah right".

I suppose Moss quit on the route he knocked down a pass coming straight to Cromartie's hands too. I mean he didn't want to be here, so he wasn't trying, so WHY THE F*** would he knock down a sure INT? NOT knocking it down would have SURELY pissed off Brady and the coaches and helped to get him traded in his master scheme to play but not try.

And why do you continue to argue that BB is so stupid as to play an obvious "quitter" almost every play of 4 straight games. Do you ever get tired of getting your logic absolutely obliterated?

Its just common sense. Unless I accept BB is a moron, he didn't trade Moss for football reasons if Moss did not detract in some other way.
It would be idiotic.

Right but he's not smart enough to NOT play a quitter every snap of each game he is here for. It takes 4 games of blatant quitting for BB to pick up on it?

What factors?
You are telling me that Randy Moss giving it everything he has got, being a good soldier is worth less to this team than a draft pick next year in the 3rd round, instead of a comp pick we would get if he leaves after?
Do you really think Moss sucks?

Look Andy, if you can't argue the points then just stop posting. Your strawman bullsh*t is getting really tiring. BTW a 3rd is certainly worth more than a 5th.

I'm done repeating myself with the countless factors that you have ignored 10 times now. Enjoy your fairy tale where you know everything and Moss quit on the team.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

Ok. There is absolutely no reason to continue this conversation.
You feel an offensive football team is better off without Randy Moss, when he is giving 100%.
Lets trade Brady too so we can REALLY become ball control.
If you think the value of that 3rd round pick is greater than what a fully committed Randy Moss would give this football team, if he were not an attitide of effort problme, you have shown that you are not worth the time to discuss.
any further discussion would only get nasty, so lets agree to disagree. I think Moss is a valuable footballl player if his head is on straight and its not, you think Moss is a great guybut doesnt help a football team much.
I can't do anything with that.

I will not agree to disagree on a point as ridiculous as the one you are trying to make. Agreeing to disagree leaves the possibility of truth in both sides, yours has 0 credible truths in it. Moss, for a 100% FACT, did NOT quit on the field on the team to get traded. That's an undeniable fact to any rational person.

Off the field stuff, dealings with O'Brien, discussions with BB etc... those are all potentially valid FACTORS (some of many factors) that can lead to the trade. Intentionally quitting on the team to get traded 100% did NOT happen.

 

[mgteich]

Re: I Dont Get It

I agree 100%.

I will not agree to disagree on a point as ridiculous as the one you are trying to make. Agreeing to disagree leaves the possibility of truth in both sides, yours has 0 credible truths in it. Moss, for a 100% FACT, did NOT quit on the field on the team to get traded. That's an undeniable fact to any rational person.

Off the field stuff, dealings with O'Brien, discussions with BB etc... those are all potentially valid FACTORS (some of many factors) that can lead to the trade. Intentionally quitting on the team to get traded 100% did NOT happen.

 

[skinnydog]

Re: I Dont Get It

Are you saying BB traded Moss because Moss asked him, so BB decided to hurt the team and make Randy happy?
Thats the issue I am driving at. If Moss did not misbehave in whatever fashion it happened to be in order to force BB to sacrifice his ability for the sake of the lockerroom, or the reliability of who he puts on the field, then he would be here.

I'm saying 2 things. One, based on all that I've read the "misbehaving" could have been dealth with. Hey, I think BB is a great coach and as such should have been able to deal with a tempermental and pouty Moss. I'm saying that the pats would have been better this year if he was willing to deal with Moss and all of his pouting which doean not mean putting up with it and could mean disciplining Moss if necessary. Two, given the teams position about not giving Moss a new deal and knowing how insecure Moss is, which is evident to all, it was horrible mismanagement on the part of BB and the Pats organization to go into the season is such a precarious situation. Welker is coming off of major knee surgery and now he is all the pats have for experience at that critical position. And the team has been here before with Branch and we suffered for it in 2006.

Also, are you saying BB is a liar? He said that he never had any disciplinary problems with Moss. Was he lying?