Aaron Schatz on Moss trade

[Bella*chick]

Please explain to me why Wilfork and others felt the need to vehemently defend Moss but not AD.

I'll just ignore your "a lot of sources" comment as that means absolutely nothing. He could know every single player on the team and still get his information from 2-3 unreliable guys.

I don't doubt many players like Randy a lot. Wilfork is one of his BFFs. They are saying what I expect them to say. Maybe no one liked AD. Guy was a tool. Moss is a lot more complex than that.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Obviously, Belchick felt Moss was more detrimental to the team than keeping him around. He has moved on and I think disjoint we.

I think BB looked at what Moss was doing and said to himself, I've seen this movie before (Minn, Oak) and I know how it's going to end and decided to end it on BB's terms before it got to the really ugly part...

 

[emoney_33]

I don't doubt many players like Randy a lot. Wilfork is one of his BFFs. They are saying what I expect them to say. Maybe no one liked AD. Guy was a tool. Moss is a lot more complex than that.

So they like a guy that was a selfish SOB lockerroom cancer in danger of destroying the team?

 

[emoney_33]

I think BB looked at what Moss was doing and said to himself, I've seen this movie before (Minn, Oak) and I know how it's going to end and decided to end it on BB's terms before it got to the really ugly part...

That's definitely exactly NOT what happened. If that were the case he wouldn't have traded for him and given him another contract. Minn and Oak never crossed BB's mind, not once, guaranteed.

People continue to ignore that BB and Moss have had private discussions all season, and BB has outright admitted there were personal discussions with Moss that were part of the COMBINATION of factors for the trade.

 

[Bella*chick]

So they like a guy that was a selfish SOB lockerroom cancer in danger of destroying the team?

That's an exaggeration. Randy was obviously not at the level of destructive locker room cancer. The team didn't let it get that far.

But that doesn't mean he wasn't being a PITA lately from the POV of the coaches. And the situation was unlikely to improve. The team acted fast, like you would hope they would.

 

[emoney_33]

That's an exaggeration. Randy was obviously not at the level of destructive locker room cancer. The team didn't let it get that far.

It was never going to get to that point.

But that doesn't mean he wasn't being a PITA lately from the POV of the coaches. And the situation was unlikely to improve. The team acted fast, like you would hope they would.

BB and Moss have had multiple private discussions over the course of the season with a very good understanding of one another. I disagree 100% this was a knee-jerk reaction or "acting fast". I'm sure this was something they've been discussing for weeks. They both have tremendous respect for each other, and Moss has not done a single thing that can be considered selfish to his teammates aside from the PC after cincy. Moss could have held out ala Mankins. He handled his business separate from his play (which was the entire point of his PC btw). Yet people still want to villainize the guy for handling things WELL, maybe not perfectly but certainly not poorly.

 

[Synovia]

People continue to ignore that BB and Moss have had private discussions all season, and BB has outright admitted there were personal discussions with Moss that were part of the COMBINATION of factors for the trade.

And you keep ignoring that pretty much everyone in that lockerroom has said that it all stayed behind closed doors, and none of the players even knew.

 

[Rob0729]

Please explain to me why Wilfork and others felt the need to vehemently defend Moss but not AD.

I'll just ignore your "a lot of sources" comment as that means absolutely nothing. He could know every single player on the team and still get his information from 2-3 unreliable guys.

First, if Moss wasn't a problem, please give a plausible reason the Pats would trade him? Did Belichick really think making sure Moss went somewhere so he could get a better deal was a bigger priority than winning this year? A third rounder is no enough compensation to weaken a 3-1 team if Moss was being a good soldier.

Second, how do you know the sources are unreliable? Bruschi, Rodney, and Troy are all friends with Brady. Much of their info could come directly from him for all we know. They all played with at least half of the current roster. It was interesting that Brady and Moss didn't sit together on the sidelines Monday night when they are usually unseparable.

Third, Wilfork may not be privy to all the problems or he could be protecting his friend or just singing the official party line. Last year players said Adalius Thomas wasn't a problem either.

People defending Moss still haven't come up with a plausible reason why he was traded if he wasn't a problem or starting to become one.

 

[Synovia]

Schatz has a lot of sources in this area. He echos what Bruschi, Troy Brown, and Rodney has said. It isn't like his comments are much different than others with close sources have said.
.

No, hes not echoing what Brushi and Brown have said.

Bruschi and Brown said he was a problem in the locker room. Schatz is saying he was a problem behind closed doors in the coaches offices. Those are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

 

[emoney_33]

And you keep ignoring that pretty much everyone in that lockerroom has said that it all stayed behind closed doors, and none of the players even knew.

Huh? If you are going to accuse me of ignoring something you might want to be sure you know what my thoughts on the topic are. I'm saying the same thing, they've had closed-door discussions in private, Moss has NOT been selfish to the team nor a lockerroom problem.

 

[Synovia]

Huh? If you are going to accuse me of ignoring something you might want to be sure you know what my thoughts on the topic are. I'm saying the same thing, they've had closed-door discussions in private, Moss has NOT been selfish to the team nor a lockerroom problem.

I misinterpreted this comment as you calling moss a cancer:

So they like a guy that was a selfish SOB lockerroom cancer in danger of destroying the team?

 

[Rob0729]

No, hes not echoing what Brushi and Brown have said.

Bruschi and Brown said he was a problem in the locker room. Schatz is saying he was a problem behind closed doors in the coaches offices. Those are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Brown said Moss was not a problem in 2007. He said he doesn't know a lot about this year other than Moss blowing off Belichick and others on the plane home. Bruschi said Moss was becoming a problem and the Pats had no other choice but to trade or cut him.

Edit; Sorry I misread your post. They said similar things. Schatz sources are probably scouts and coaches and Bruschi and Brown got their info from players. Schatz being a stat guy would have more access to coaches and scouts than players.

 

[emoney_33]

First, if Moss wasn't a problem, please give a plausible reason the Pats would trade him? Did Belichick really think making sure Moss went somewhere so he could get a better deal was a bigger priority than winning this year? A third rounder is no enough compensation to weaken a 3-1 team if Moss was being a good soldier.

Would a 2nd rounder in 2012 have made you feel better? What about a 2nd rounder in 2010 for the Seymour trade instead of the 1st in 2011, would that have made you feel Seymour was a lockerroom cancer?

Not to mention the obvious shift from quick-strike to ball-control making Moss' abilities a little useful than they had been in prior years. Let's also continue to ignore the multiple talks that we have no idea of what was said.

I mean we can also continue to pretend that BB wouldn't have taken alternate disciplinary actions if he felt Moss was a "problem". Why is it that people have such a hard time of accepting complexity? I'm sure attitude was SOME small factor in it all, as it has to be a COMBINATION of factors

Second, how do you know the sources are unreliable? Bruschi, Rodney, and Troy are all friends with Brady. Much of their info could come directly from him for all we know. They all played with at least half of the current roster. It was interesting that Brady and Moss didn't sit together on the sidelines Monday night when they are usually unseparable.

So you will sit there and assume they are reliable and I will not use them as proof of ANYTHING since we have no idea whether it was Brady or a security guard as a source. Now who is being reasonable?

Third, Wilfork may not be privy to all the problems or he could be protecting his friend or just singing the official party line. Last year players said Adalius Thomas wasn't a problem either.

I'd love to hear all the defensive quotes of AD saying how much of a great person and leader he is on the team. Please let me know when you find them.

People defending Moss still haven't come up with a plausible reason why he was traded if he wasn't a problem or starting to become one.

Sure we have, you just refuse to accept them because you've made your mind up already.

 

[emoney_33]

I misinterpreted this comment as you calling moss a cancer:

Ahh yeah I forgot about that sarcastic remark

 

[emoney_33]

Brown said Moss was not a problem in 2007. He said he doesn't know a lot about this year other than Moss blowing off Belichick and others on the plane home. Bruschi said Moss was becoming a problem and the Pats had no other choice but to trade or cut him.

Edit; Sorry I misread your post. They said similar things. Schatz sources are probably scouts and coaches and Bruschi and Brown got their info from players. Schatz being a stat guy would have more access to coaches and scouts than players.

In your opinion, please name the specific players that were likely to give Bruschi and/or Brown the information.

 

[Synovia]

Brown said Moss was not a problem in 2007. He said he doesn't know a lot about this year other than Moss blowing off Belichick and others on the plane home. Bruschi said Moss was becoming a problem and the Pats had no other choice but to trade or cut him.

Edit; Sorry I misread your post. They said similar things. Schatz sources are probably scouts and coaches and Bruschi and Brown got their info from players. Schatz being a stat guy would have more access to coaches and scouts than players.

I just don't think Brown got his info from players. Pretty much everyone who was on the team while he was is either gone, or saying the opposite of him. I think hes just following the party line/media tweets/etc.

And Troy WAS claiming that Moss was a problem in the locker room. I don't think its possible that Welker/Wilfork/etc would be surprised at the trade if he was being a problem.

 

[Spiral]

If this is one stat head talking to another, my guess is Ernie Adams.

 

[Rob0729]

Would a 2nd rounder in 2012 have made you feel better? What about a 2nd rounder in 2010 for the Seymour trade instead of the 1st in 2011, would that have made you feel Seymour was a lockerroom cancer?

Not to mention the obvious shift from quick-strike to ball-control making Moss' abilities a little useful than they had been in prior years. Let's also continue to ignore the multiple talks that we have no idea of what was said.

I mean we can also continue to pretend that BB wouldn't have taken alternate disciplinary actions if he felt Moss was a "problem". Why is it that people have such a hard time of accepting complexity? I'm sure attitude was SOME small factor in it all, as it has to be a COMBINATION of factors

Belichick didn't want a second rounder for Seymour. Reports are that is what the Raiders offered and he rejected it. Belichick wanted the first in 2011 probably because it was a safe bet it would be a top 5 pick also there is a good chance there will be a rookie cap.

As for other disciplinary actions, Belichick couldn't do what he did to Terry Glenn. The CBA extension signed in 2006 limited actions of what you can do to discipline players and it is very hard to supsend or even bench a player based on disciplinary actions. He could never suspend him for the season like he did with Glenn because the rules don't allow it anymore.

You keep talking about a combination of factors, but never elaborate on it.

So you will sit there and assume they are reliable and I will not use them as proof of ANYTHING since we have no idea whether it was Brady or a security guard as a source. Now who is being reasonable?

They are consistent. None of us other than Bruschi, Harrison, Troy, or Schatz know who the sources are or have any clue how reliable they are.

I'd love to hear all the defensive quotes of AD saying how much of a great person and leader he is on the team. Please let me know when you find them.

They all denied problems with Thomas before and no one talks about him now.

Sure we have, you just refuse to accept them because you've made your mind up already.

Please give a plausible explaination that goes beyonf Belichick and Moss talked a lot and there are a combination of factors.

 

[Rob0729]

I just don't think Brown got his info from players. Pretty much everyone who was on the team while he was is either gone, or saying the opposite of him. I think hes just following the party line/media tweets/etc.

And Troy WAS claiming that Moss was a problem in the locker room. I don't think its possible that Welker/Wilfork/etc would be surprised at the trade if he was being a problem.

There are still plenty of players who are still on the team who were there with Brown who have not contradicted his story. Brady, Welker (who confirmed Moss asked for a trade and not much else), Koppen, Kazcur, Faulk, Merriweather, Morris, Wright, Sanders, Tully Banta Cain, and Gostkowski all played with Brown and none of them contradicted what Brown has said.

Troy never claimed Moss was a problem in the locker room. He only spoke of the plane incident. He said Moss was a model teammate when he was there (he trashed Reche Caldwell, not Moss) and he doesn't know what went on this year beyond the plane incident.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Moss has not done a single thing that can be considered selfish to his teammates aside from the PC after cincy.

You forgot 2 important words:

Moss has not done a single thing on camera that can be considered selfish to his teammates aside from the PC after cincy.

Neither you nor I know how he behaved in closed practices, team meeetings, the locker room, film sessions, etc. It's guesswork on your part (and mine) unless we have direct info from players, coaches, or staff. I would guess, however, that people like Troy Brown have direct access to players, coaches, or staff speaking with him "off the record". That isn't a big reach to think that Troy has good info.