OT: Jets going after Jason Taylor HARD

[BradyFTW!]

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Excellent, very well reasoned post.

The one part you left out was what the Jets did with those missing picks, and there ability to move around in the draft.

I am talking about trading 2nd rounders with the Bears for T Jones, trading for Jenkins, Edwards, moving up for Revis, just saying the Jets did OK with there strategy of giving up picks in trades etc. IMHO.

Yeah, that's a very good point. I was focusing on moving up: aka it makes it easier to 'hit' on the picks that you do have, but also more necessary to hit on them. Didn't account for the picks given up to get Jenkins/Edwards/Jones, just as I don't count Moss or Welker when evaluating the Pats' drafting. In both cases, though, it should factor in on some level.

I do agree with you that, as a strategy, it can work. To be totally honest, I do think that it will backfire on the Jets (and is in the process of backfiring even now), but it's a justifiable strategy and people that know a lot more about football than I do are on board with it, so we'll see soon enough

 

[Gunnails]

For the record I would rather pass on J Taylor and hold out for Adailius.

Too much water under the bridge between Jet fans and JT.

 

[Mangold74]

Yeah, that's a very good point. I was focusing on moving up: aka it makes it easier to 'hit' on the picks that you do have, but also more necessary to hit on them. Didn't account for the picks given up to get Jenkins/Edwards/Jones, just as I don't count Moss or Welker when evaluating the Pats' drafting. In both cases, though, it should factor in on some level.

I do agree with you that, as a strategy, it can work. To be totally honest, I do think that it will backfire on the Jets (and is in the process of backfiring even now), but it's a justifiable strategy and people that know a lot more about football than I do are on board with it, so we'll see soon enough

How is it in the process of backfiring now?

 

[BradyFTW!]

The bottom line is that in the last four years the Jets have drafted Ferguson, Mangold, Eric Smith, Leon Washington, Brad Smith, Revis, Harris, Keller, Sanchez and Greene.

Well that's just it: that's not nearly as good of a haul as you think it is. Half of those picks were available to the Jets because they perpetually sucked and had premium picks every year, and even then they missed on a few.

Mangold? The Pats got Mankins at right around the same spot in the draft. Eric Smith? What can he do that Sanders and McGowan can't? Leon Washington? He's on his way out of town, and was at best Kevin Faulk-lite. Brad Smith? His only value was as a kick returner, and Ellis Hobbs did it better. Harris? Pats got Mayo. Keller? WTF does keller bring to the table? 500 yards and 5 TDs in 2 years isn't much of anything.

If you're going to hold up Brad Smith as the standard for a good pick, then a Pats fan could quite easily say "the Pats have drafted Meriweather, Maroney, Mayo, Butler, Wilhite, Hobbs, Edelman, Vollmer, Mankins, and Kaczur. Every single one of those players has done more as a professional than Brad Smith, Eric Smith, Sanchez, and Keller.

 

[Marko]

Oh please give me a break. If anything the Pats have proven that having 12 picks every year doesn't help if your horrible at drafting.

When your competing at a high level every year because you have Tom Brady you need to continue to put good players around him. I understand that your coach loves the value of the 2nd round and he's right that the best value at the cheapest price is in the 2nd round. The problem is that he's done a horrible job of drafting in the 2nd round.

Outside of Ferguson and Sanchez the Pats could have traded up for any of the studs the Jets got in the last four years. They could have moved up to get Revis, taken Harris or Mangold.

The bottom line is that in the last four years the Jets have drafted Ferguson, Mangold, Eric Smith, Leon Washington, Brad Smith, Revis, Harris, Keller, Sanchez and Greene.

Regardless of where they were drafted, the Jets since Tannenbaum was named GM have done a far superior job drafting then the Pats.

And the fact that the Pats have probably had about twice as many picks over the four years only makes Belicheck look worse.

Both teams have traded picks for players and received good value.

The bottom line is that Belicheck seems more concerned with not spending a lot of money on draft pcks and accumulating as many picks as possible rather then getting the most talented players.

I like how you cherry pick the information that works for you, and leave out that which doesn't. Who was that fat Dtackle that was supposed to change the way the game was played. Also, since BB got Moss and Welker for draft picks they could be considered as drafted, they're not at the level of Sanchez and Keller but pretty good.

 

[BradyFTW!]

How is it in the process of backfiring now?

Lack of depth. No team can really afford to lose its star players, but the Jets have no depth whatsoever at ILB, OLB, DE, S, RB, G, and C. That's the price of repeatedly sacrificing 2nd-4th round picks to move up. If they stay healthy, it works out great, but it makes the annual Kris Jenkins season-ender, for example, that much harder to weather. The Jets are better-constructed to win in a simulation, the Pats are better-constructed to win over the course of a real season, where injuries are inevitable.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I like how you cherry pick the information that works for you, and leave out that which doesn't. Who was that fat Dtackle that was supposed to change the way the game was played. Also, since BB got Moss and Welker for draft picks they could be considered as drafted, they're not at the level of Sanchez and Keller but pretty good.

That was Dewayne Robertson, but he was picked back in 2002 I think. Guys like Robertson, Bryan Thomas, Nugent, etc. etc. don't factor into a discussion about Tannenbaum. If we wanted to list all of the ways that Bradway was an incompetent moron, I think even the fiercest Jets supporter would just agree.

 

[ramon]

Originally Posted by Mangold74
Oh please give me a break. If anything the Pats have proven that having 12 picks every year doesn't help if your horrible at drafting.

When your competing at a high level every year because you have Tom Brady you need to continue to put good players around him. I understand that your coach loves the value of the 2nd round and he's right that the best value at the cheapest price is in the 2nd round. The problem is that he's done a horrible job of drafting in the 2nd round.

Outside of Ferguson and Sanchez the Pats could have traded up for any of the studs the Jets got in the last four years. They could have moved up to get Revis, taken Harris or Mangold.

The bottom line is that in the last four years the Jets have drafted Ferguson, Mangold, Eric Smith, Leon Washington, Brad Smith, Revis, Harris, Keller, Sanchez and Greene.

Regardless of where they were drafted, the Jets since Tannenbaum was named GM have done a far superior job drafting then the Pats.

And the fact that the Pats have probably had about twice as many picks over the four years only makes Belicheck look worse.

Both teams have traded picks for players and received good value.

The bottom line is that Belicheck seems more concerned with not spending a lot of money on draft pcks and accumulating as many picks as possible rather then getting the most talented players.




Mangold speaks the truth (Jets fan or not). It has been said over and over again here and is true. The JETS FO has excelled and gettiing good talent in quickly over the past 3-4 years, while the PATS have not.
The JETS trajectory is on an upward slope and the Patriots is not.
It di not have to be this way. the PATS had teh ammunition to ve up and pull off a "Darrell Revis" trade but BB and the FO were arrogant and assumed they could coach up "B" level players to "A" level.

The well si running dry and 3 second round picks are not going to instantly turn this team back into the 2007 patriots.

To make matters worse, the JETS FO is going to bring Taylor in...you don't think that is demoralizing to the PATS?

 

[Mangold74]

Well that's just it: that's not nearly as good of a haul as you think it is. Half of those picks were available to the Jets because they perpetually sucked and had premium picks every year, and even then they missed on a few.

Mangold? The Pats got Mankins at right around the same spot in the draft. Eric Smith? What can he do that Sanders and McGowan can't? Leon Washington? He's on his way out of town, and was at best Kevin Faulk-lite. Brad Smith? His only value was as a kick returner, and Ellis Hobbs did it better. Harris? Pats got Mayo. Keller? WTF does keller bring to the table? 500 yards and 5 TDs in 2 years isn't much of anything.

If you're going to hold up Brad Smith as the standard for a good pick, then a Pats fan could quite easily say "the Pats have drafted Meriweather, Maroney, Mayo, Butler, Wilhite, Hobbs, Edelman, Vollmer, Mankins, and Kaczur. Every single one of those players has done more as a professional than Brad Smith, Eric Smith, Sanchez, and Keller.

Brad Smith in 4 seasons has returned kicks for half a season. He's been the Jets best special teams player for the last four years. They've used him as a good role player on offense. He was a converted QB project drafted in the 4th round and while he's never going to be even an average wr from scrimmage his value on specials has been great.

The only high pick that the Jets recieved that they totally bombed on was Gholston. You seem to hate Sanchez for no apparent reason. Brick is a franchise LT, Revis was the best defensive player in football last year, I'll take Harris any day over Mayo. You judge Keller on his stats but the Jets rarely passed the ball last year. If my memory is correct, the Pats have struggled to cover him, he had touchdown receptions in the playoffs. You seem to think Keller is another crappy player but he's not and he's entering his 3rd season and he will have the same qb for the first time.

Leon Washington was one hell of a 4th round pick prior to injuring his knee in Oakland. A great kick returner and a third down back that can score a touchdown any time the ball is in his hands.

You make it out like the Jets haven't drafted well or if they have drafted well it's only because they had a high pick or traded up. Plenty of teams screw up high picks and plenty of teams trade up and screw up picks.

Did you really say that Wilhite and Edelman have done more as pros then Sanchez and Keller? Is that a joke?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Some day you will repeat 1969, when you had your last success. But it won't be in 2010.

Great line space...I may borrow it repeatedly throughout the season. Concisely sums up every overhyped JETS fans and NJ mediots off season prognostication since 1970. :rocker:

 

[Mangold74]

I like how you cherry pick the information that works for you, and leave out that which doesn't. Who was that fat Dtackle that was supposed to change the way the game was played. Also, since BB got Moss and Welker for draft picks they could be considered as drafted, they're not at the level of Sanchez and Keller but pretty good.

Yes lets bring up Dewayne Robertson who was drafted by a different regime that did things completely differently. The same regime that traded a first round pick for Doug Jolley and Mike Nugent.

You must have missed where i wrote that both teams have used draft picks to get quality players. (Braylon, Thomas Jones, Jenkins for the jets, Moss and Welker for the Pats).

All I'm comparing is the Jets vs the Pats draft since Tannenbaum took over in 2006.

 

[crowell33]

Brad Smith in 4 seasons has returned kicks for half a season. He's been the Jets best special teams player for the last four years. They've used him as a good role player on offense. He was a converted QB project drafted in the 4th round and while he's never going to be even an average wr from scrimmage his value on specials has been great.

The only high pick that the Jets recieved that they totally bombed on was Gholston. You seem to hate Sanchez for no apparent reason. Brick is a franchise LT, Revis was the best defensive player in football last year, I'll take Harris any day over Mayo. You judge Keller on his stats but the Jets rarely passed the ball last year. If my memory is correct, the Pats have struggled to cover him, he had touchdown receptions in the playoffs. You seem to think Keller is another crappy player but he's not and he's entering his 3rd season and he will have the same qb for the first time.

Leon Washington was one hell of a 4th round pick prior to injuring his knee in Oakland. A great kick returner and a third down back that can score a touchdown any time the ball is in his hands.

You make it out like the Jets haven't drafted well or if they have drafted well it's only because they had a high pick or traded up. Plenty of teams screw up high picks and plenty of teams trade up and screw up picks.

Did you really say that Wilhite and Edelman have done more as pros then Sanchez and Keller? Is that a joke?

Sanchez had 12 TD's and 20 INT's with a 63.0 QB rating on a team with the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. He was horrible.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Brad Smith in 4 seasons has returned kicks for half a season. He's been the Jets best special teams player for the last four years. They've used him as a good role player on offense. He was a converted QB project drafted in the 4th round and while he's never going to be even an average wr from scrimmage his value on specials has been great.

So he's the Jets' Matthew Slater. Fair enough then.

The only high pick that the Jets recieved that they totally bombed on was Gholston. You seem to hate Sanchez for no apparent reason.

Don't hate him. Just not ready to coronate a guy who couldn't manage a 65 passer rating even though he was playing behind a stellar offensive line and an excellent running game. He might get better, but it's not the foregone conclusion that Jets fans seem to think it is. Yeah, Peyton had a rough go of his rookie year too, but he was in a worse situation and still showed far more.

Brick is a franchise LT

He's a good LT, but definitely not elite. For the #4 selection, he was at best a decent pick.

Revis was the best defensive player in football last year

Agreed, he was a fantastic pick. Singlehandedly has kept the Jets' draft haul over Tannenbaum's tenure from being average.

I'll take Harris any day over Mayo.

Then you don't know what to look for in LBs, because nobody in the NFL would ever agree with that assessment.

You judge Keller on his stats but the Jets rarely passed the ball last year. If my memory is correct, the Pats have struggled to cover him, he had touchdown receptions in the playoffs. You seem to think Keller is another crappy player but he's not and he's entering his 3rd season and he will have the same qb for the first time.

I don't think he's a crappy player at all. He's a starter, and they were confident enough in him to let Baker go, so he can't suck. But to claim that picking him in the first round is an example of Tannenbaum's drafting prowess is misguided, at best. By any measure, they're getting third-round production out of a first-rounder.

Leon Washington was one hell of a 4th round pick prior to injuring his knee in Oakland.

He was a good pick yeah. But every team has good second-day picks. Last year, the Pats started serviceable late-round picks at RT, C, DE, S, CB, and WR. I'm not disputing that Washington is a good player: I'm disputing the notion that finding a good player in the fourth round is rare enough that it proves how great Tannenbaum is.

You make it out like the Jets haven't drafted well or if they have drafted well it's only because they had a high pick or traded up. Plenty of teams screw up high picks and plenty of teams trade up and screw up picks.

That's not at all what I've said. I think that they've been above-average at drafting, but not nearly as amazing as some folks think.

Did you really say that Wilhite and Edelman have done more as pros then Sanchez and Keller? Is that a joke?

The only thing that kept Sanchez from being the worst starting QB in the NFL last year was JaMarcus Russell. Going by actual production, he's the least accomplished Jets pick on your list not named Gholston. As of right now, Clemens is a significantly better QB, but because Sanchez has the potential, they're going to keep riding him until he becomes the all-pro that you guys are all certain he'll become. Just remember that Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Tim Couch, Byron Leftwich, JaMarcus Russell, Kyle Boller, Brady Quinn, and Matt Leinart were highly effective QBs in college too. Until Sanchez shows something as a pro, he's a giant question mark, end of story.

Wilhite and Edelman, OTOH, have both started capably. Edelman, in particular, has demonstrated the ability to be the #1 target in a pass-oriented offense that is specifically trying to stop him.

You're trying to rate your guys based on projected talent, and in doing so you're ignoring that neither one of them has done much of anything at the NFL level. I'm taking the opposite approach. I'll be the first to agree that they both have a lot more potential than Wilhite and Edelman, but until that translates into actual production, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[NE39]

I think Sanchez has a chance to be a good player, but as of right now he isn't. That isn't even arguable.

Last season he had 53.8% completions, 6.7 YPA and a 12-to-20 TD-to-Int ration. He threw 20 picks in only 364 attempts, which means the only thing keeping him from being worse is they limited his attempts.

He is just another guy who struggled as a rookie, only he did it with a team that had a great running game and the leagues best defense. If he improves, the Jets should as well, but that isn't an automatic thing.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brick is a franchise LT

If by "franchise" you mean "a stiff who was going to get run out of town before Faneca arrived to save his ass, and is still no better than the third best left tackle in the division, if he's even that high up.", you're absolutely correct.

Revis was the best defensive player in football last year

That's debatable, but he's a hell of a player.

I'll take Harris any day over Mayo.

That's insane. Assuming Mayo returns to even his pre-injury level without improving upon it, he's a significant step up from Harris.

You judge Keller on his stats but the Jets rarely passed the ball last year. If my memory is correct, the Pats have struggled to cover him, he had touchdown receptions in the playoffs. You seem to think Keller is another crappy player but he's not and he's entering his 3rd season and he will have the same qb for the first time.

Watson was better than Keller and Belichick let Watson walk. It's just the way life is. If it makes you feel better, Keller's likely better than the bloated corpse of Crumpler will be.

Leon Washington was one hell of a 4th round pick prior to injuring his knee in Oakland. A great kick returner and a third down back that can score a touchdown any time the ball is in his hands.

Good player, bad injury.

You make it out like the Jets haven't drafted well or if they have drafted well it's only because they had a high pick or traded up. Plenty of teams screw up high picks and plenty of teams trade up and screw up picks.

This is an excellent point. There are teams that draft the Gholston's of the league. Those teams really screw the pooch. Then again, pretty much that entire 2008 Jets draft is something that team would like to have a mulligan on.

Did you really say that Wilhite and Edelman have done more as pros then Sanchez and Keller? Is that a joke?

Edelman certainly showed more as a rookie than did Sanchez. Wilhite/Keller goes to Keller, though, so it's probably more fair to call the pairings a wash.

 

[Mangold74]

Can someone explain to me why Mayo is such a better player then David Harris?

 

[The Dynasty]

Guys, this is a Pats forum. If you want to get so into the Jets go over to Gang Green and debate there.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Can someone explain to me why Mayo is such a better player then David Harris?

Mayo had an outstanding rookie season but in his sophomore year,got injured early and was not really the same guy the rest of the season,barely edging UDFA Gary Guyton in tackles.

Mayo is a big question mark this season

Is Mayo going to be again that rookie sensation we saw?

Was the injury and coming back early a reason for a drop off his second season?

Was the fact that we had some veteran leader quality players around Mayo and helped him out with defensive preparations a factor in his rookie campaign?

Can Mayo be a leader on this defense and mature to that level?

As far as Harris,He is a good player too

 

[NE39]

Can someone explain to me why Mayo is such a better player then David Harris?

Harris is a 2-down player. Mayo is a 3-down player. Harris is very good as an inside run-stuffer, but he doesn't have Mayo's range. He can't cover like Mayo, who can run with TE and RB in coverage. The Jets are a better team in passing situations with Harris out, but Mayo never comes out of the game.

 

[Gunnails]

Guys, this is a Pats forum. If you want to get so into the Jets go over to Gang Green and debate there.

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I am banned at GangGreen.