Lack of playmaking LBs...swings and misses

[shatch62]

The link here is to an older globe article about what BB wants in LBs

LBs are built from ground up - The Boston Globe

This is no secret to anyone that has followed that Pats over the BB years. During his time here he has made some great LB pick ups like Mike Vrabel and Roman Phiffer (SO underrated) so good pick up like Junior Seau and Rosie Colvin (injuries ruined his Pats career) and bad one (Monty Beisel and Adalius Thomas).

One thing in the article that got me to thinking was "In that sense, he's like former mentor Bill Parcells, who loves supersized linebackers to stuff running games." Offenses in the NFL have chnged so much even in the last couple of years. Now teams are running spread offenses with 4-5 wideouts and the QB in the shotgun more and more (sound like anyone we know). Does the approach of big stout run stuffers still apply or is it time to get some quicker LBs?
Watching the Pats LBs is painful at times so there is HUGE part of me that wants a "undersized" but quicker Elvis Dumervil or James Harrison on the outside. Then again there is another side of me that says if the ball bounced slightly different against the Giants in the SB the Pats would have had their 4th title in the 2000s any I probably would have a completely different attitude. Anyone have any thoughts? Is it time to rethink the defensive approach?

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

Game has changed. Pats are set up to stop the run, but weak on the pass. Just look at last week. Phish with their vaunted ****ycat offense, passed the ball 65% of the time on Sunday. Offenses no longer do one thing first, they do whatever the defense will allow them. Hence, against the Pats, its pass, pass, pass......

 

[Patriots Nation NY]

Game has changed. Pats are set up to stop the run, but weak on the pass. Just look at last week. Phish with their vaunted ****ycat offense, passed the ball 65% of the time on Sunday. Offenses no longer do one thing first, they do whatever the defense will allow them. Hence, against the Pats, its pass, pass, pass......

Couldn't agree more ... The game is passing BB by .. well, maybe..

 

[letekro]

Have any of the above posters watched a game this year? The Pats back 7 is built for speed.

The Pats play sub packages more than half the time to get even more speed on the field. BB has been well aware of the changes you have discussed and has IMPLEMENTED those changes over the past two years, but apparently none of you bothered to notice.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Its tough to find people that can excel in our system. 6,4 265 pound linebackers who can cover TE's, rush the passer, run down running backs, dont grow on trees.

 

[shatch62]

Have any of the above posters watched a game this year? The Pats back 7 is built for speed.

The Pats play sub packages more than half the time to get even more speed on the field. BB has been well aware of the changes you have discussed and has IMPLEMENTED those changes over the past two years, but apparently none of you bothered to notice.

If he is IMPLEMENTING the changes why not get a LB who is smaller and can run? I'm talking about getting some speed in the FRONT 7.

 

[RobertWeathers]

If he is IMPLEMENTING the changes why not get a LB who is smaller and can run? I'm talking about getting some speed in the FRONT 7.

Mayo and Guyton who have speed to spare. That is not the issue. The issue is making plays on the ball which is something these two have not done a lot of. If they were forcing fumbles, we'd all be singing a different tune.

 

[letekro]

If he is IMPLEMENTING the changes why not get a LB who is smaller and can run? I'm talking about getting some speed in the FRONT 7.

Why don't you WATCH THE GAMES and PAY ATTENTION TO THE PLAYERS WHO ARE PLAYING FOR THE PATRIOTS.

Jerod Mayo ran a 4.54 at the combine. Gary Guyton ran a 4.49. Guyton was the fastest LB that came out that year and Mayo was not far behind.

 

[shatch62]

Why don't you WATCH THE GAMES and PAY ATTENTION TO THE PLAYERS WHO ARE PLAYING FOR THE PATRIOTS.

Jerod Mayo ran a 4.54 at the combine. Gary Guyton ran a 4.49. Guyton was the fastest LB that came out that year and Mayo was not far behind.

Your right. I should watch the games. When do they play again? Wednesdays? In all seriousness I am talking about the OUTSIDE guys. Mayo can run and so can Guyton but they are a) ILBS and b) not 'playmakers'. IN 26 career games Guyton has 0 sacks, 0 INTs and 0 Forced fumbles. In fairness to him he is a 'project' as he was undrafted for a reason. Mayo is a thumper but again not a guy who makes the game changing plays (1.5 sacks, 0 INTs and 1 FF). He was not draft to generate a pass rush. He is the field general. I have no issue with him not getting sacks as it is not his main role. The outside guys are the issue.

I am saying I would like to have a guy that other teams need to account for. The only Patriot defended that other teams are worried about - in my opinion - is Wilfork. Again, a thumper not a quick twitch guy. I have no issue with the Pats not trading up for guys like Merrimen and Ware because it would cost to much in picks and $. It would be nice to see them take someone in rd 2-4 who can help. Maybe Crable was going to be the guy. He can't stay health so who knows. I just wish the Pats had - at least one guy that I thought had a better than average chance of getting to the QB consistently.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I'm thinking 2 things:

One ... Pioli is doing some serious skating on this issue.

Two ... I think Bill will draft better without Pioli.

We'll see ... Bill didn't get stupid overnght and he really had little room to develop a player. What if we had not lost the draft pick? Might that have been a stud LB or CB ... that is hurting big time because Bill's round #1 success rate is very good.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Your right. I should watch the games. When do they play again? Wednesdays? In all seriousness I am talking about the OUTSIDE guys. Mayo can run and so can Guyton but they are a) ILBS and b) not 'playmakers'. IN 26 career games Guyton has 0 sacks, 0 INTs and 0 Forced fumbles. In fairness to him he is a 'project' as he was undrafted for a reason. Mayo is a thumper but again not a guy who makes the game changing plays (1.5 sacks, 0 INTs and 1 FF). He was not draft to generate a pass rush. He is the field general. I have no issue with him not getting sacks as it is not his main role. The outside guys are the issue.

I am saying I would like to have a guy that other teams need to account for. The only Patriot defended that other teams are worried about - in my opinion - is Wilfork. Again, a thumper not a quick twitch guy. I have no issue with the Pats not trading up for guys like Merrimen and Ware because it would cost to much in picks and $. It would be nice to see them take someone in rd 2-4 who can help. Maybe Crable was going to be the guy. He can't stay health so who knows. I just wish the Pats had - at least one guy that I thought had a better than average chance of getting to the QB consistently.

Our LB's are average. Bill is a coach who made his name grooming LB's. Funny he can't find one to save his life. Yet many, many very good LB's come out of the draft every year. Its always the same excuse though, not smart enough, not big enough, not fast enough. I call BS, use the effin draft picks instead of trading them into next year and pick some LB's.

 

[carolinatony]

Our LB's are average. Bill is a coach who made his name grooming LB's. Funny he can't find one to save his life. Yet many, many very good LB's come out of the draft every year. Its always the same excuse though, not smart enough, not big enough, not fast enough. I call BS, use the effin draft picks instead of trading them into next year and pick some LB's.


Its like the guy who can't find a woman. She's too fat, she's to ugly,she don't make enough $$,ect. He ends up single his whole life.
You get my point.
JUST draft some.

 

[Deus Irae]

Our LB's are average. Bill is a coach who made his name grooming LB's. Funny he can't find one to save his life. Yet many, many very good LB's come out of the draft every year. Its always the same excuse though, not smart enough, not big enough, not fast enough. I call BS, use the effin draft picks instead of trading them into next year and pick some LB's.

On a thread about linebackers where RayClay and I were going back and forth about the Steelers v. the Patriots when it came to drafting linebackers, I showed that the two teams had been essentially the same in their drafting approach to linebackers prior to the 2007 season where Pittsburgh used a 1st and 2nd on the position. The Patriots then followed that up in 2008 by using a 1st and 3rd on the position.

The major difference between the Steelers and Patriots at linebacker this decade has been health.

Here's the missed games for Pittsburgh's starting linebackers, broken down by year.

2008: 2
2007: 0
2006: 3
2005: 5
2004: 4
2003: 2

Colvin alone missed 14 games in 2003, which is just 2 fewer than every single starting linebacker for the Pittsburgh Steelers has missed, for any reason, since the start of the 2003 season.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/239346-defense-wins-championships-well-pass-rush-does-page2.html#post1384433

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/240182-future-patriots-d-3-4-tipping-point.html#post1387602

I also posted this on the subject of the linebackers:

* The Steelers only drafted about as many linebackers as the Patriots did through the decade
* Colleges don't run the 3-4, so it's very difficult to judge which players can adapt. that means....
* Using picks on 3-4 linebackers can easily lead to wasted picks
* The Patriots run a 2-gap, not a 1-gap, system. It makes a difference
* The Patriots' linebacking problem has been injuries, not lack of talent....
* Colvin's hip, Johnson's Concussions, Bruschi's stroke, A.D.'s multiple injuries
* Colvin alone missed more games than the entire Pittsburgh starting linebacking corps since his signing.
* James Harrison was an UDFA and was cut multiple times by the Steelers
* Larry Foote was a 4th round pick in 2002
* Farrior was drafted by the Jets, not the Steelers
* Clark Haggans was a 5th round pick in 2000
* Belichick has spoken of his belief that defense starts with the defensive line, hence 3 #1 picks for that line, and they've all lived up to 1st round pick status.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/247851-nice-discussion-rookies-scout-com-public-article-page3.html#post1421624

 

[letekro]

Our LB's are average. Bill is a coach who made his name grooming LB's. Funny he can't find one to save his life. Yet many, many very good LB's come out of the draft every year. Its always the same excuse though, not smart enough, not big enough, not fast enough. I call BS, use the effin draft picks instead of trading them into next year and pick some LB's.

Mayo was a stud before he tore up his knee. He will back 100% next year. Guyton was a UDFA and probably will never be more than a JAG, which is fine. Crable has been injured, Mckenzie ditto. They wanted Stewart Bradley, but missed out by one pick, I think. He would've been great in this scheme. Just a combination of bad luck and injuries. It happens.

 

[brady et al fan]

the swings and misses include Burgess and AD. Both ex-Ravens, right? ok lets stay away from Ravens LBs and go back to Steelers cast-offs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

the swings and misses include Burgess and AD. Both ex-Ravens, right? ok lets stay away from Ravens LBs and go back to Steelers cast-offs.

No- Burgess was an Eagle then a Raider

 

[The_Riddler]

You mean like Clay Matthews and Rey Maualuga ?

Oh you're right, we did pass on these guys..................damn

 

[patsfan-1982]

the NFL today is all about the pass like ( jaws of espn ) says points come out of the passing

im not going to say that BB dose not know this and the game has passed him by. how can he not know this when the pats and colts are the leaders of this new pass happy movement

now 6.5 265lbs OLB's that can run a 4.4 40 are hard to come by and there is only one of dose guys each year in the draft and they go in the top 5 or 10 in the draft and when teams get one they dont let them go so they are hard to get in FA

there are like 10 team's in the NFL that run a 3-4 if you look at the starting OLB not many of them have 2 OLB that are 6.5 265lbs cause they are hard to find

thats way team's are going with guys like (james harrison ) 6" 242lbs (Elvis Dumervil ) 5.11 248lbs cause you just can't keep saying he dont fit my system and pass on OLB's that can get to the QB casue they are not 6.5 260lbs


i meen look at it what BB feard all dose years by not drafting OLB has happen to him he has a team full of guys that dont fit he's system

mayo is haveing a hard team takeing on blocks and should be in a 4-3 where he can just run around and make plays

guyton is a OLB not a ILB he's speed is not being used right

AD is a pass rusher not a safety he sould not be covering a TE all game

mike wright and green are both better off in a one gap system where they can get after the QB more

burgess, the one knock on him all ways was he is not good VS the run and he has not been a good pass rusher for the last 3 years

wilfork, is a fit in any system but he is working he's you know what off out there and there is no reason to have him out there on 3rd and long he is not a pass rusher any ways he need a brake on passing down so he can be fresh in the 4th when they relly need him

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

You mean like Clay Matthews and Rey Maualuga ?

Oh you're right, we did pass on these guys..................damn

Passing on Clay Mathews is looking pretty bad right now, isn't it? To be fair, I wasn't high on Mathews because he didn't play very much at USC until his senior season. However, I was high on Mauluga and felt he could've been a run stopping ILB and have Guyton as the coverage LB on 3rd downs. The Pats run defense could've been a lot better than currently is. There were a ton of LB's in this year's draft and the Pats passed on them again. What a heart breaker.

I liked Chung, but he proving he was taken way too high based on his skill level.

I also can't believe nobody is mentioning how Dom Capers has turned the Green Bay defense around. I know stats don't tell the entire story but their defense is ranked #1 in the NFL. Seeing how bad Pees was last year, it's mind boggling how Capers didn't replace him at defensive coordinator. And it's not like this a surprise given how long Capers has been between being a defensive coordinator and a head coach in the NFL.

 

[wilfork is beastin']

Fortunately this draft is even deeper at LB than last years and we have lots of picks. If they stick with the 3-4(assuming they re-sign Wilfork) it would be great to get Jerry Hughes or Sergio Kindle. Sean Weatherspoon is a great prospect but I keep hearing that he's purely a 4-3 OLB. I'd love the Patriots' 2010 linebacking corp to look like:

OLB-Thomas
ILB-Mayo
ILB-Weatherspoon/Spikes/McClain
OLB-Kindle