Reiss and Curran on some of the locker room reaction

[MoLewisrocks]

Nope said you cannot win by playing in one game and taking a few games off.

Ditto for one down or one series or one quarter or one half. This team doesn't know how to fight for 60 minutes all season or realize that's the only way you ever got a ring here.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think a someone significant needs to get cut to show some willingness to drop the axe, but that same kind of thing (trading/retiring players) may be part of the reason for the current locker-room funk.

I say we cut Randy Moss. When was the last time that bum had a 2,000 yard season? On top of that, he's a cancer in the locker room and looks like Kimbo Slice! We don't need thugs like that on our pristine team!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

But they got rid of guys who didn't seem to be the heart & soul of the team. Only McGinest in my mind was a leader who had anything left. Samuel, Seymour, Law, Milloy--these guys were not team leaders.

Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, Brown, they were done.

In retrospect, I would go back and keep McGinest and Deion Branch. We'd have two more Lombardi trophies if we kept these guys around.

Don't get me wrong, I do think you have a point, but for the most part the Patriots made the right moves.

2006 and 2007 would have been championship years if they had kept McGinest and Branch especially.

Getting rid of them wasn't the problem, it was inability to replace them in kind including in the locker room.

 

[mcgraw_wv]

BB gets the blame for a lot of that by some people, but he is not the one signing the checks. He does have a boss.

Not really... he is the GM as well. And I don't see Kraft saying no to BB.

 

[Patspsycho]

I think a someone significant needs to get cut to show some willingness to drop the axe, but that same kind of thing (trading/retiring players) may be part of the reason for the current locker-room funk.

I wonder if we created too much of a distance by cutting too many of the old players where the new players don't have the pride and tradition rub off on them, e.g., to have them exposed to the pride/mindset that losing 2 in a row is completely unacceptable in Foxboro.

 

[dtbrks]

I wonder if we created too much of a distance by cutting too many of the old players where the new players don't have the pride and tradition rub off on them, e.g., to have them exposed to the pride/mindset that losing 2 in a row is completely unacceptable in Foxboro.

I think so... the team isn't the same anymore, esp on D.

 

[Kontradiction]

Getting rid of them wasn't the problem, it was inability to replace them in kind including in the locker room.

This year, it's Seymour. The problem has been the pass rush. The offseason response to that issue? Get rid of your leading pass rusher from the year before. At the time Seymour was traded, I said that I did not like the trade but had faith in it because BB must have seen something that would make him think that the team could survive on defense without Seymour's presence. Well... I was dead wrong. Unlike what happened with Milloy, we shipped Seymour out and then didn't have anybody capable of generating any sort of push in his wake. Jarvis Green has been all but absent in the pass rush when healthy. In the run game, he's getting run through and around.

 

[DefenseRules]

Not really... he is the GM as well. And I don't see Kraft saying no to BB.

Maybe, but it's not BB's money...as far as I know.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I say we cut Randy Moss. When was the last time that bum had a 2,000 yard season? On top of that, he's a cancer in the locker room and looks like Kimbo Slice! We don't need thugs like that on our pristine team!

When was the last time he made a tough catch in tight coverage or beat it with anything approaching bankable consistency... I know he does it in practice because they tell me he does. Just doesn't translate to sufficient value on the field. I don't think he's a cancer or a slacker, he's got issues and a mindset that just aren't making him a worthwhile investment in the only way we measure them here when we're measuring right, for rings. You could say the same thing about AD, although I think in his case they misjudged his individual talent absent a cast that included a lot of other playmakers. Those who refuse to look critically at Moss' performance and impact for fear of others playing the thug and cancer card are missing the boat. Clearly it's not all Moss' fault this team cannot accommodate his playing style. He's tried to mitigate that somewhat with his forays across the middle. But those are almost painful to watch and like his quick outs provide no YAC so their value is limited. And now teams are using that approach to further disadvantage as defenders clog the middle and shut down Welker and Faulk whose meat and potatoes lie in YAC in the process.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I say we just give Seau a license to kill and let it all work itself out.

 

[Kontradiction]

When was the last time he made a tough catch in tight coverage or beat it with anything approaching bankable consistency... I know he does it in practice because they tell me he does. Just doesn't translate to sufficient value on the field. I don't think he's a cancer or a slacker, he's got issues and a mindset that just aren't making him a worthwhile investment in the only way we measure them here when we're measuring right, for rings. You could say the same thing about AD, although I think in his case they misjudged his individual talent absent a cast that included a lot of other playmakers. Those who refuse to look critically at Moss' performance and impact for fear of others playing the thug and cancer card are missing the boat. Clearly it's not all Moss' fault this team cannot accommodate his playing style. He's tried to mitigate that somewhat with his forays across the middle. But those are almost painful to watch and like his quick outs provide no YAC so their value is limited. And now teams are using that approach to further disadvantage as defenders clog the middle and shut down Welker and Faulk whose meat and potatoes lie in YAC in the process.

I see that as well. However, I counter that argument by saying that the team knew what it was getting when it brought him in. And that's exactly what you described. A speedster that can stretch the field vertically and go up for the jump ball, but one that doesn't consistently go over the middle. Moss is what he is. We knew that when we brought him in and we knew that when we paid him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This year, it's Seymour. The problem has been the pass rush. The offseason response to that issue? Get rid of your leading pass rusher from the year before. At the time Seymour was traded, I said that I did not like the trade but had faith in it because BB must have seen something that would make him think that the team could survive on defense without Seymour's presence. Well... I was dead wrong. Unlike what happened with Milloy, we shipped Seymour out and then didn't have anybody capable of generating any sort of push in his wake. Jarvis Green has been all but absent in the pass rush when healthy. In the run game, he's getting run through and around.

We had the same issues with Seymour (and Vrabel) on the field. Sure he had 8 sacks in 16 games against a weak schedule when we weren't scaring anyone with our HS QB. How'd he do in 2007? He was actually less productive by sack measure coming back from injury than...AD was. Seymour hadn't been a force since 2004 and he was increasingly a locker room problem and a looming contract problem and they got a high first in what will almost certainly be a capped draft in exchange. I don't have a problem with Bill not caving to the windows crowd. His problems emanate more from miscalculations and **** luck with the players he signs moreso than the ones he moves on from.

He keeps guys who produce beyond what some here would consider all reason if they are truly leaders on and/or off the field. That two of his best gave up the goat this season is likely something he didn't adequately plan for. Ditto that AD the humble pie baker would morph into both a locker room issue and a no show on gamedays...and Crable would never recover from whatever he did to his shin...and Galloway couldn't even catch the damn ball or run a route at 38, or Welker would miss back to back games early on, or his latest veteran RB would end up where they all do after a couple of weeks, and Mayo would get injured and then overwhelmed and encounter a sophomore slump, and on and on. It's not like we aren't snakebit to some extent (Tate as CJ II although hopefully not a forever loss due to attitude). It's never just one thing here any more. It's a cascade of things and this season some of them appear to be related to loss of leadership on and off the field which is essentially the frosting on the cake. That weakens the effectiveness of scheme and the system moreso than mere lack of talent.

But tell you what, if the OL could function well on any level and Moss could beat the jam or double coverage more than once in a game, they'd still be pulling rabbits out of Bill's hat.

 

[BradyFTW!]

We had the same issues with Seymour (and Vrabel) on the field. Sure he had 8 sacks in 16 games against a weak schedule when we weren't scaring anyone with our HS QB. How'd he do in 2007? He was actually less productive by sack measure coming back from injury than...AD was. Seymour hadn't been a force since 2004 and he was increasingly a locker room problem and a looming contract problem and they got a high first in what will almost certainly be a capped draft in exchange. I don't have a problem with Bill not caving to the windows crowd. His problems emanate more from miscalculations and **** luck with the players he signs moreso than the ones he moves on from.

He keeps guys who produce beyond what some here would consider all reason if they are truly leaders on and/or off the field. That two of his best gave up the goat this season is likely something he didn't adequately plan for. Ditto that AD the humble pie baker would morph into both a locker room issue and a no show on gamedays...and Crable would never recover from whatever he did to his shin...and Galloway couldn't even catch the damn ball or run a route at 38, or Welker would miss back to back games early on, or his latest veteran RB would end up where they all do after a couple of weeks, and Mayo would get injured and then overwhelmed and encounter a sophomore slump, and on and on. It's not like we aren't snakebit to some extent (Tate as CJ II although hopefully not a forever loss due to attitude). It's never just one thing here any more. It's a cascade of things and this season some of them appear to be related to loss of leadership on and off the field which is essentially the frosting on the cake. That weakens the effectiveness of scheme and the system moreso than mere lack of talent.

But tell you what, if the OL could function well on any level and Moss could beat the jam or double coverage more than once in a game, they'd still be pulling rabbits out of Bill's hat.

In 2007, Seymour came off PUP from a severe knee injury and played out the season on one leg, and he was STILL better than Jarvis Green. The fact that you have to reach that far in a blind attempt to discredit him says a lot about him as a player and you as a poster.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Seymour wouldn't make the pass rush elite, but the fact that he occupies one or two blockers is light years better than we can say about Jarvis Green, Burgess, Warren, or Wright.

It's a shame that Tully has very little in the way of talent. He's balls to the wall on every down.

I don't know about McGinest being all that helpful to us in the timeframe some are arguing, but Law, Seymour, and Samuel sure as hell would have offered us something after they were gone. You get what you pay for. Unfortunately, you have to pay through the nose to get keep your halfway decent players or you will have a major hole in the roster.

Have we figured out who it is that Welker and Brady are calling out? It seems to me that Welker should be going for Brady's throat. No way is it Moss who they're targeting.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

We had the same issues with Seymour (and Vrabel) on the field. Sure he had 8 sacks in 16 games against a weak schedule when we weren't scaring anyone with our HS QB. How'd he do in 2007? He was actually less productive by sack measure coming back from injury than...AD was. Seymour hadn't been a force since 2004 and he was increasingly a locker room problem and a looming contract problem and they got a high first in what will almost certainly be a capped draft in exchange. I don't have a problem with Bill not caving to the windows crowd. His problems emanate more from miscalculations and **** luck with the players he signs moreso than the ones he moves on from.

That was a long post.

For the sake of this argument, ignore my user name because I'm not too hung up on trading him. I just saw potential in using his name as my user name.

I just wanted to note that Seymour was a beast in 05. They showed the game against the Steelers at Heinz from that year, and Seymour was tearing through double teams the entire game. Since then, he wasn't able to do what he had done in the past, but he still did his job, and well, as a 3-4 DE. Teams averaged two yards less running to his side than anywhere else. If we had a decent pass rusher behind him, teams wouldn't have been able to afford to focus so much on him, etc.

 

[ALP]

Seymour wouldn't make the pass rush elite, but the fact that he occupies one or two blockers is light years better than we can say about Jarvis Green, Burgess, Warren, or Wright.

It's a shame that Tully has very little in the way of talent. He's balls to the wall on every down.

I don't know about McGinest being all that helpful to us in the timeframe some are arguing, but Law, Seymour, and Samuel sure as hell would have offered us something after they were gone. You get what you pay for. Unfortunately, you have to pay through the nose to get keep your halfway decent players or you will have a major hole in the roster.

Have we figured out who it is that Welker and Brady are calling out? It seems to me that Welker should be going for Brady's throat. No way is it Moss who they're targeting.

from these comments it seems to me that the defensive locker room is divided
its a leadership vaccum,

on one side u got player like AD, who likes to call out the coaching staff, and on the other u got Burgress, who sees nothing wrong with his performances

on the other u got mayo trying to fill this vaccuum, but apparently cant, and the backfield is a complete mess from lb's to cb's to safeties

our only consistency is our DL, and they should be leaders, but apparently arnt really up to the task

so our defense is in shambles

and our offense is too inept to erase those woes, on top of that our offense has moss, who does the things that are easy, and seems to care little about anything else, and Brady who has looked like he doesnt care mch about the outcome, and welker, whos all heart out there, but cant beat 11 guys by himself

no talent past them, and a line of 5 guys, who cant block 3 mediocre d-linemen for more than 3 secs

its a disaster, and i have no idea how it started, or how it can be fixed....or if it can be fixed

i never thought i would say this with a belicheck led pats team...but the locker room is now a problem

 

[satz]

If we had a decent pass rusher behind him, teams wouldn't have been able to afford to focus so much on him, etc.

Before AD broke his hand last year he had 5 sacks which projects to 12 sacks

think about it AD and Seymour 12+8 sack would have matched our current rate of production as a TEAM

 

[RobertWeathers]

Before AD broke his hand last year he had 5 sacks which projects to 12 sacks

think about it AD and Seymour 12+8 sack would have matched our current rate of production as a TEAM

AD had 5 sacks in 9 games. That is a projection of almost 9 sacks in 16 games. Your point is made, though. However, that was last year when Sey was occupying more than one blocker at times.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I think Brady's comments and apparently Welker's comments (and visible frustration during the game) support the argument. There is going to be some cleaning to be done after the season. AD is all but gone.

Banta-Cain knows what it takes to win (he was a LB on the 2003-04 teams), and he doesn't seem happy with the mentality here. That should be a big red flag.

Some players need to get chewed out and get a fire lit under their asses. Whether it's Brady, Belichick, Seau, or someone else who does that, it needs to be done and done in the next month.

Thomas and Burgess should both be gone.

Meriweather and Mayo should get chewed out.

 

[Pats726]

In retrospect, I would go back and keep McGinest and Deion Branch. We'd have two more Lombardi trophies if we kept these guys around.

Don't get me wrong, I do think you have a point, but for the most part the Patriots made the right moves.

2006 and 2007 would have been championship years if they had kept McGinest and Branch especially.

Dream on...McGinest was getting slower..there were money issues..and Branch?? He burned the bridge and with that he was history..If the FO had bowed down to baby Deion, there would have been problems galore with many other players wanting their money as well. Branch was a cancer when he left, a big headed baby who was upset that he signed a longer deal and wanted the bucks THEN like his pal Givens.
Keeping those guys and..not understanding the ripple effect that would have taken place.