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In BB We Trust

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Those were legitimate reasons. What's funny is that I'm not even "hand-wringing". I've spent far less time this week wondering about the Patriots than I did most days during the offseason. What I did was called analysis. I did it in the most objective manner I thought possible, and I looked back on it after both games in order to see if time had changed my mind on either week.

What time has done is reinforce it. Well, time and the Patriots players and coaches, and the local and national media and analysts, and a whole lot of people who's football opinions I trust a great deal. I'm still expecting the team to turn things around, and I won't be surprised if it happens as early as this week. That won't change what happened in weeks 1 and 2, though, even if it occurs.

But you keep complaining and raging because somewhere, somehow, there's a person who thinks that Belichick has made mistakes and this team wasn't where it needed to be in the first two weeks of the season.

No. I am saying that the issues now are no greater than the issues we have dealt with over the last 9 years, and those have consistently been dealt with effectively. I am saying history and the logic derived from it dictate confidence not doubt.

The point of the thread was what problems have we had in the last 9 years, and how did that turn out. To list what you think this years problems are isn't really addressing that, is it?

It doesn't make much sense to have a discussion when you continue ton describe my opinion the way you would like it to read, even when I have restated it numerous times. I'm sure its easy to argue when you chose my opinion, but then you are arguing with yourself, which you are doing right now, because you are arguing that BB has made mistakes and all the people who say he has never made any are wrong.....when no one is saying that.....only you are and crediting it to being someone elses opinion.
 
You are implying that almost every strategy the Patriots employ is wrong, and then trying to defend your commment by saying obviously BB knows that but has no control. Thats ridiculous.

Here you go, *once again*, making things up.

Please cite where I supposedly said every Patriots strategy was wrong. You can't because you just made it up.

Belichick doesn't know all. He can't predict what his own coordinators are going to call during games, based on their meetings where he gives his feedback and vision.

You are basically giving ZERO credit and blame to Belichick's coordinators, which is laughable.
 
Just want to chime in and say that I really appreciate "most" all the people that post here. I enjoy reading the debate. That is what makes this board interesting. I bet if you all met in person you would find that you get along better than you would ever think.

Box, Ray Clay, Oswelk, Tune, desus, Mav, signBaby even Da Bruinz. I appreciate all the posts. Could use a few more by Keegs and PatJew though.

What gets my goat though. After page 6, a thread usually goes downhill. It turns into "I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth." or the classic "hey internet tough guy, why don't you reach through your computer and punch me".
 
I have read everything there is on the Patriots and BB, including the crap Holley wrote ("Moving the Chain" which was so watered down you coudn't get drunk on even if you drank it by the gallon), and I've read "Education" twice..

Now, the first thing that comes to my mind when you bring up the concept of BB micro-managing and being a control freak, is the famous principle that goes by the name of the two minute drill (for lack of a better term to apply to what I am about to discuss) that has won us so many games and gave us 2 out of 3 Lombardi's.

It is virtually impossible to micro-manage the two-minute drill. That is the one thing that the quarterback is in complete control of. There is just no time to audible him, and if you try to you are just asking for information overload. That is the clearest evidence that BB does delegate something- otherwise if he were a true micro-manager/control freak, he would not have entertained the two minute drill as a game tool.

Also let us examine a famous well known and proven control freak and micro-manager: Napoleon Bonaparte, who micromanaged to such an extent that he designed the stamp on the uniform buttons for his grenadiers.

His brilliant grasp of tactics and battlefield geography was second to none and propelled him to such height that he was able to expand the French Revolution outside of France to the point where it no longer was a 'revolution' but became the infamous 'total war' of Europe, and a crusade in imitation of Alexander the Great, that took him as far as Egypt (also where Alexander went, and is ironically buried). However his two defeats were both a fatal result of his micromanaging, in Russia (refusing to manumit the Russian Serfs which led to their deadly assault on his retreat), and more importantly at Waterloo where he had engaged in a war of attrition with Wellington and did not see the crushing flank assault by the Prussians that destroyed his army, because of desire to assume the classic battle posture "Central Position" which you use to beat a larger foe by splitting it in half or preventing it from unifying (in this case, England unifying with Prussia). However, his love of the "Central Position" was also a byproduct of his desire to see the battlefield from a vantage point so he could micromanage it. Had he allowed Marquis de Grouchy (commander of the Army of the North) any semblance of autonomy, Grouchy would have taken the initiative to head off the Prussian front before it reached Waterloo to open up another ill-afforded front against Napoleon. Instead, Grouchy followed orders to pursue the Prussian Army , over the famous "march towards the sounds of the guns" alternative that so many military historians have advocated would have had won for Napoleon, the battle of Waterloo.

In summary, he had a brilliant, but short career. From the day he became Emperor of France to the day he fell at Waterloo, just a little over a decade passed. This is a very short period of time where nations, warfare, and conquests are concerned.

Part of the reason I love the game of football is that its dynamics, in real-time, evolves pretty much faster than any human mind is able to minutely analyze it, and only in retrospect or extensive video analysis, is one able to break down the game into its many thousands of elements, and even then as this forum has proved, you can argue these elements to no end (thus one never gets tired of loving the game). And this is professional football. You absolutely just cannot micromanage or be a control freak and expect to last long, because the game evolves so fast, from year to year and on many levels, and not even the most brilliant mind, as Napoleon has proved, can keep up, if it is micro-managing or being a control freak.

By psychological definition, a micro-manager and/or control freak is rigid, static, and non-evolving, because those are byproducts of, and the mechanism with which one deals with anxiety, self-doubt, or low self-esteem, and you cannot evolve, or grow, or learn if you have the anxiety, self-doubt, or low self-esteem that contribute to the dysfunctional behavior in the first place.

We have seen time and again that BB is not afraid to throw concepts out the window, trade away major players that most still think are in their primes, and judge players not on their pedigree but on how they perform here and now, all in order to remain competitive. These elements are not hallmarks of a control freak or micro-managers, because those are dabbling in unknown qualitatives.

He may have micro-managed at an early point in his career, but to say that he still does, is an anomaly because then by logic, he would not have been able to evolve, he would not have been able to stay on top and be competitive for so long.

Also, if you study the psychological byproducts of a micro-managing superior in a workplace, you will see he or she is surrounded by enablers who are too, suffering from low self-esteem (the enablerism serves the dual-reciprocal relationship) to the point of allowing themselves to be micro-managed. Now if you look at Tom Brady, you would imagine he is the farthest thing from someone who has a low-self esteem. I really don't think he would subject himself to being micro-managed, year in, year out, especially if he were not able to completely take over in critical moments of the game and shine in the spotlight. That would be too much for his personal pride, hunger, and love of the game. I imagine the same is true, to a lesser extent and applicative to the rest of the players.

I know this homily is long-winded and will try not to do this again. Now this is not a criticism or refutation to what Andy says, it is just a series of suggestion why I think otherwise.

One reason I love discussing and analyzing this is that many of the elements we are discussing here are applicative to real life for a lot of us and we can actually make use of the many ideas, philosophies, and doctrines of pro football.

It depends on how you define micro-managing, which wasnt my word (its a poor word in any event). Clearly we differ because your definition is that he is doing everything himself, as in your 2minute example.
I suggest that he does micro-manage(by my definition) the 2minute offense, because he designs it, game plans it and the philosophy of it comes from him. A micro-MANAGER doesn't execute, they take total control over the planning, methods and means of execution, which descirbes BB to a T in my opinion.
You are describing a poor manager and may be right in your definition of the term. I am desribing his involvement, and the fact that the decisions made in the organization are either made by him, or someone he trained to make the decision, and he endorses or rejects those made by subordinates. It actually is managing, but the counter argument I was responding too implied he pretty much turned over the keyds and took a lot of naps.
 
Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

So why does BB bother to wear a headset during the game if he doesn't micromanage?
 
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What is ridiculous is you trying to claim that Belichick DECIDED to only blitz 3 times at a rookie QB, or to exclusively use only 1 formation all game, when it was clearly the coordinators making those calls.

You can't even name one instance when Belichick ever publicly criticized or over-ruled his coordinator in public.

It's not a major concept to understand that Belichick's coordinators actually have some autonomy and decision making on their own, under the vision Belichick sets. The entire NFL league disagrees with you, which is why they have been hiring so many ex-Belichick coaches and personnel managers in recent years.

So you think that the way BB operates it to tell the coordinators to make up game plans (game plans include whether or not we blitz) and he either disagrees with them, or doesnt care if they are followed, and then tells the coordiators to call the game, and doesnt interject when they are doing things you say he clearly and obvioulsy disagrees with?
What does he do?

Again, BB assistants are not hired because of what he taught them not what they taught him to produce the success.
 
It depends on how you define micro-managing, which wasnt my word (its a poor word in any event). Clearly we differ because your definition is that he is doing everything himself, as in your 2minute example.
I suggest that he does micro-manage(by my definition) the 2minute offense, because he designs it, game plans it and the philosophy of it comes from him. A micro-MANAGER doesn't execute, they take total control over the planning, methods and means of execution, which descirbes BB to a T in my opinion.

This is ridiculous and absurd.

So... in 2001 when we needed a drive to win the Superbowl, Charlie Weiss calls plays which involve short passes to Redmond and a max protect to Troy Brown. In 2003-2004, we use quick efficient passes to get us in range to win the game again. In 2007, we throw 4 straight hail mary's even though we have all 3 timeouts left and only need a FG to tie. Belichick decided all of this beforehand according to you?

You're giving Belichick WAY TOO MUCH credit, to try to claim Belichick basically wrote out the entire play call for a 2-minute drill, and his robot coordinators simply called what he already decided.

It's ridiculous. You give ZERO credit to his coordinators for doing well, or doing poorly. Patspsycho post about your definition of micro-managing, is spot on.
 
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It depends on how you define micro-managing, which wasnt my word (its a poor word in any event). Clearly we differ because your definition is that he is doing everything himself, as in your 2minute example.
I suggest that he does micro-manage(by my definition) the 2minute offense, because he designs it, game plans it and the philosophy of it comes from him. A micro-MANAGER doesn't execute, they take total control over the planning, methods and means of execution, which descirbes BB to a T in my opinion.
You are describing a poor manager and may be right in your definition of the term. I am desribing his involvement, and the fact that the decisions made in the organization are either made by him, or someone he trained to make the decision, and he endorses or rejects those made by subordinates. It actually is managing, but the counter argument I was responding too implied he pretty much turned over the keyds and took a lot of naps.

Oh yes, a micro-manager does takes over execution. The biggest characterism of a micro-manager is his or her lack of trust in subordinates to complete the task as well as she or he could, so she or he inevitably takes over one way or another.

EDIT: I am wrong here- I looked up the psychological definition of micro-management and it says "delegating responsibilities but not authority"

And how in heck do you game-plan the 2 minute drill? The variables are too mulitiple and the scenario can wildly vary, on downs and distance, on time left, on timeouts left.
 
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Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

So why does BB bother to wear a headset during the game if he doesn't micromanage?

Just so I understand the question, are you trying to imply that because Belichick sometimes wears a headset, that he is behind every single play call on defense and offense, in real time?
 
Here you go, *once again*, making things up.

Please cite where I supposedly said every Patriots strategy was wrong. You can't because you just made it up.

Belichick doesn't know all. He can't predict what his own coordinators are going to call during games, based on their meetings where he gives his feedback and vision.

You are basically giving ZERO credit and blame to Belichick's coordinators, which is laughable.

You implied it was stupid to only blitz 3 times. You implied it was stupid to throw 47 passes, and use the shotgun as often as we do.
So the defensive strategy was bad, and the offensive strategy is bad.
You havent said anything I noticed about the special teams, so I guess every may possibly be a slight overstatement.

The coordinators have a job. That job does not include creating the schemes or dictating the game plan. How hard is that to understand.
Yes, some teams, the Colts on offense, Eagles on D for example, hire coordinators to come in and run one side of the ball with total autonomy.
That does not happen here. The coordinators work WITH BB in developing game plans. I'm sure they make most of the calls during the game, but they are doing it based upon a GAME PLAN that was developed with BB. Development where they are the underlings and he is the boss. He makes the decisions on thier input. During the game if they veer from the gameplan, he finds out why and makes a decision. Do you not recognize that they communicate all game long?
Your posts imply that the coordinators set game plan and call plays, and that BB would never agree with what you've seen on the field. HOw do you suppose he has allowed it to happen then?
 
Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

Just so I understand the question, are you trying to imply that because Belichick sometimes wears a headset, that he is behind every single play call on defense and offense, in real time?

The only time I see BB without that headset on is when he's talking to a ref or is disgusted with a bad play on the field.

Is he calling in every single play? I would assume no. Can you give me an accurate number of plays he does call in or even a percentage?
 
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Oh yes, a micro-manager does takes over execution. The biggest characterism of a micro-manager is his or her lack of trust in subordinates to complete the task as well as she or he could, so she or he inevitably takes over one way or another.

EDIT: I am wrong here- I looked up the psychological definition of micro-management and it says "delegating responsibilities but not authority"

And how in heck do you game-plan the 2 minute drill? The variables are too mulitiple and the scenario can wildly vary, on downs and distance, on time left, on timeouts left.

Game plans include how to handle situations (ie down and distance, 2 minute, 1st and 10 plays, 3rd down plays, etc) and what plays to use in those situations.
When we are in a 2 minute drill, the game plan has already narrowed the playbook to the plays to be used. The PHILOSOPHY of the 2minute offense has been designed and installed (by BB) and practiced over and over.
Attention to detail has been described as the heart of the BB success.
These posts make it sound like we are saying "Oh my God its a 2minute drill, lets figure out what we want to do here". I dont see it that way.
 
You implied it was stupid to only blitz 3 times. You implied it was stupid to throw 47 passes, and use the shotgun as often as we do.
So the defensive strategy was bad, and the offensive strategy is bad.

The coordinators work WITH BB in developing game plans. I'm sure they make most of the calls during the game, but they are doing it based upon a GAME PLAN that was developed with BB. Development where they are the underlings and he is the boss.


What the OP fails to understand, as has been pointed out multiple times now in this thread, is that criticisms of the offense or defensive play calls, are NOT direct attacks on Belichick.

The OP clings to the idea that Belichick is some sort of micro-managing puppet-master, on top of every single play call and approves everything, when it's simply not the case and also impossible to do.

It's very odd that the OP can admit that the coordinators make most if not all the calls during a game, and yet still takes it personally as if any criticism of the offensive or defense is an attack on Belichick.
 
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Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

Every single thing that happens on the field, is not intentionally done or decided upon by Bill Belichick. He is not a micro-manager dictator. Multiple books/articles have interviewed him saying he's learned since Cleveland to delegate more, trust and give his coordinators autonomy under an overall vision/guidance he gives.

It's unlikely that Belichick specifically wanted to only blitz rookie QB Mark Sanchez three times all game; that was more likely Dean Pees. It's unlikely Belichick specifically wanted to use 3-WR every single play and almost always out of shot gun, completely abandoning the run - that was more likely inexperienced O'Brien's play-calling during the game.

Did Belichick call the game-winning drives in 2001, 2003, and 2004? Nope, that was Charlie Weiss. Did Belichick call the horrible game-ending Patriots drive in 2007? Nope, that was McDaniels. Did Belichick micro-manage the 2005 defense when Mangini was stinking it up as coordinator? Nope, he let him do his thing almost the entire season.

This is also a reason why so many owners and GM's try to hire Patriots coaches or front office people...people like McDaniels, Weiss, Crennel, Pioli, Mangini. They know these people deserved credit for the Patriot successes, they were making decisions too, that they weren't merely robots executing what Belichick dictated them to do in excruciating detail. By saying it is always Belichick, is taking away credit (and blame) from the people who work under Belichick. It's also as silly as taking credit away from Belichick the coordinator, when he worked for Bill Parcells and their Giants championships.

Belichick is the best coach of the modern era, but he isn't a micro-manager. Like any boss, he meets with them to go over their work, give feedback/suggestions, reiterate his vision and expectations. He does the best he can managing the entire team, and gives his coordinators much autonomy. To claim that every single criticism is somehow an attack on Belichick, or to ascribe every event/tendency on the field as a decision by Belichick, is giving the man too much credit and blame. The most extreme of this are people wondering recently if Belichick intentionally loses games.
i dont know why you make point everyday about BB being absolved from what his coords do.No one here says he is a micromanager.Why the **** is he on the sideline ? You have read many books and articles that he has learned to delegate. Also you must have read that he is involved deeply in game plans and meets with the team captains and QB's every week to go over the plan .
No one is giving bb too much credit or blame except that you keep blaming the coords all the time assuming that BB has let them run the show and is not responsible for what is happening on the field on game day and he is watching them screw themselves up.
Go watch the nfl films video of the eagles/pats game from 2007 if you can get a hand on it. At half time bb walks over to brady and says "we are now going to get out of the no huddle now"
And next time you see bb on the sidelines drawing up and explain plays to his defensive players , assume he is showing the floor plan for gillette stadium.
Piss on the coordinators all you want but BB runs the show and he has his fingerprints all over it .If o'brien wanted to run what he wants he would be given the title of coordinator now .he is not. If you think bb watched silently along the sidelines with 3WR sets all game without saying anything and letting them beat their heads because he wants to delegate more then thats not delegation ,thats not doing his job which i dont think is the case. He groomed mcdaniels - asked him to learn from meyer the spread offense. he is grooming o'brien now as well. Every playcall and bad play is not BB but every crap cannot be just the coords as well.
According to you....
Pees is crap
Mcdaniels is crap
O'brien is potential crap...
guess what;BB hired them all and living with them even nowl so he shares some responsibility both in good times and bad times...
 
Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

Is he calling in every single play? I would assume no.

Calling in every play? But it still sounds like you think he is in on most play calls, which is not only absurd but also impossible. Belichick is focused on managing the entire team from a higher view, not doing what he used to do in Cleveland.
 
Oh yes, a micro-manager does takes over execution. The biggest characterism of a micro-manager is his or her lack of trust in subordinates to complete the task as well as she or he could, so she or he inevitably takes over one way or another.

EDIT: I am wrong here- I looked up the psychological definition of micro-management and it says "delegating responsibilities but not authority"

And how in heck do you game-plan the 2 minute drill? The variables are too mulitiple and the scenario can wildly vary, on downs and distance, on time left, on timeouts left.

Again micro-manager was not my term.
I am saying that the planning, philosophy, schemes, etc are Bill Belichick. That gameplans and playcalling are not made by coordinators without his approval or involvement, as is done in some places. If we do it on the football field it is what Bill Belichick wanted done, is what I am saying. Maverick wants to believe that the coordinators are doing things that BB thinks are stupid and he is giving them the authority to do it, and doing nothing about it.
 
Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

No one here says he is a micromanager.

Yes, AndyJohnson is defending his claim that BB is a micromanager in the 'in BB we trust' thread.
 
Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

The only time I see BB without that headset on is when he's talking to a ref or is disgusted with a bad play on the field.

Is he calling in every single play? I would assume no. Can you give me an accurate number of plays he does call in or even a percentage?

1) That is the TV coverage you see, they're predisposed to show drama.

2) BB has a headset on to listen to the chatter between OC/DC/upstairs and can overrule at any time, but does NOT call plays, otherwise he'd be covering his lips when he talks.
 
Re: Giving Bill Belichick Too Much Blame and/or Credit

Yes, AndyJohnson is defending his claim that BB is a micromanager in the 'in BB we trust' thread.

if micromanagement means decidng the weekly gameplans and schemes -not every play calls-,conducting situational practices etc then yes ..you can call it micromanagement although its not IMO.
if he is overruling all his coords and telling them to change the play everytime thats micromanagement which is isnt doing.if he is teaching the players techniques on the sidelines with a whiteboard , thats not micromanangement either but he is still involved and responsbile for what the players do.
 
What the OP fails to understand, as has been pointed out multiple times now in this thread, is that criticisms of the offense or defensive play calls, are NOT direct attacks on Belichick.

The OP clings to the idea that Belichick is some sort of micro-managing puppet-master, on top of every single play call and approves everything, when it's simply not the case and also impossible to do.

It's very odd that the OP can admit that the coordinators make most if not all the calls during a game, and yet still takes it personally as if any criticism of the offensive or defense is an attack on Belichick.

Do yuo have trouble with reading comprehension? I thought OPie was a poster in another thread because none of this even seems familiar.

I am saying
1) We have had similar issues over the past 9 years to what we have had these 2 weeks, in really every phase of the organization, and the reaction has produced results that only a moron would be unappy with. Therefore to purport that what has happened in the first 2 games is ominous for the rest of the season is much less logical, given history, than to be optimistic that they are temporary issues that will get corrected.
2) Bill Belichick runs this franchise. Always has, always will. The decisions that are made about the football team eminate from his philosophy, and decisions that are delegated will be overruled if he disagrees with them. The very reason that we should be confidence is that any time we have struggled the reaction has been extremely succesful and since that reaction comes from BB and for 9 years it has worked, I'm not worried.

Somewhere you decided to turn that into another opportunity for you to stray from the point, bash coordinators and pretend you know more about football than them, making it necessary to imply BB is asleep at the wheel while the coordinators do stupid things he would never agree with.
 
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