Brady and Moss names mentioned in rap lyrics

[apple strudel]

I do think that other forms of music take more skill...or, if you like, I can say that other forms of music takes a different type of skill, one that is harder to come by. I think that's true. Of course that's my opinion, but I also of course think I'm right. What's your problem?

My problem is that this is an ignorant statement (how's that for conviction).

You're much better off saying that practitioners hone their skill in whatever genre they chose to work in. That's how art and music work. It's certainly not the genre that is the limiting factor.

Here is a hypothetical to help make the point: a rapper writes a poem as well-regarded as a Williams poem, and then sets it to a beat and turns it into a rap song. Is the genre a limiting factor in the skill required to accomplish this?

 

[Satchboogie3]

My problem is that this is an ignorant statement (how's that for conviction).

You're much better off saying that practitioners hone their skill in whatever genre they chose to work in. That's how art and music work. It's certainly not the genre that is the limiting factor.

Here is a hypothetical to help make the point: a rapper writes a poem as well-regarded as a Williams poem, and then sets it to a beat and turns it into a rap song. Is the genre a limiting factor in the skill required to accomplish this?

Seriously, go listen to any pioneer of Jazz and tell me that ANY rapper is as talented or skillful. Seriously. It's like comparing some Hallmark card writer to a Mark Twain. Give me a break.

 

[apple strudel]

Wait, so are you saying that drummers don't need to know how to drum? Everyone who's not mute can sing.

Clearly not. I am saying that drumming's pretty elementary from a musical theoretical perspective. All you really need to know is time signatures.

Actually, it's relatively easy. Just like 'regular' singing is. That's why places have "Karaoke night" and not "show up and try to play the guitar/bass/drums/tambourine/sitar/piano night."

Based on the karaoke I've seen, it's not easy at all.

The claim was anything but solid. What's interesting about it, though, is that you don't seem to see the hypocrisy inherent in your statement. Let me help:

dismissing those who don't happen like an entire genre as "necessarily lazy-minded and, as a result, somewhat debased" is probably necessarily lazy-minded and, as a result, somewhat debased.

Yeah, you're still not getting it. I'm not dismissing people who don't like a thing. I've said several times that not liking a thing is fine. But pretending that an entire genre is objectively inferior based on a personal and very arguable set of criteria is spurious at best. It is lazy-minded by definition. As clear as I try to be I expect you to not follow along again. :ugh:

 

[feldspar]

Well that's pretty much the problem, isn't it? You dismiss an entire genre by making "objective" arguments but really it's just opinion masquerading as analysis. Again, if you don't like it, fine. But don't begin to pretend the entire genre is inferior.

Well, if there is a problem, it's entirely YOUR problem and not mine. You gotta break out of looking at things in black and white dude. If I'm sitting here explaining what I see objectively, that could be called opinion, too, couldn't it? If you want cold, hard, indesputable facts, read a math book. Until then, stop being so anal about splitting hairs.

I don't have to pretend about anything. If I think a whole genre of music is inferior, it is to me, and I can tell you why I think that. If you can come up with a geometric equation proving the rap can stand up to other forms of music, be my guest. You can't prove a thing like that. If you want to analyze an artist, good luck being as objective as you think you should be in order to comment on that artist at all.

Absolutely not. You are trolling because you are insistently crapping on the genre this thread happens to be about.

Not skilled ... give me a break. :ugh:

I have an opinion, and we are playing off each other, aren't we? You could've just respected my opinion in the beginning, and we wouldn't still be talking about it. Instead, you feel the need for personnal attacks for some reason, which egg me on. Several other people of the same ignorant clan have expressed the same sentiments as me in this thread. Message boards are interesting because of different opinions, not because there is some upspoken rule that everyone needs to kiss each other's asses and agree on everything.

If I told you I liked most rap, I'd be lying. If I told you that I thought that rap is a hard genre to master, I'd be lying. I'm telling you the truth as I see it. If you disagree, so be it. Just don't be a hypocrite. Lighten up.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, you're still not getting it. I'm not dismissing people who don't like a thing. I've said several times that not liking a thing is fine. But pretending that an entire genre is objectively inferior based on a personal and very arguable set of criteria is spurious at best. It is lazy-minded by definition. As clear as I try to be I expect you to not follow along again. :ugh:

Your other two points in this post are simply refusals to admit the obvious, so I won't bother with them. This one is more amusing, though.

1.) Do some 'genres' of arts require more or less skill than others? In other words, is it generally more difficult to write a Haiku than a free prose poem, as an example?

2.) Does it take more, less, or the same amount of skill to write a rap song in comparison to, say, a concerto?

3.) Could you kindly give me the definition of "lazy-minded" that you're using, since it's pretty clearly not an official definition, yet you're claiming something is lazy-minded "by definition"?

 

[apple strudel]

Seriously, go listen to any pioneer of Jazz and tell me that ANY rapper is as talented or skillful. Seriously. It's like comparing some Hallmark card writer to a Mark Twain. Give me a break.

They are as skilled at rapping as the jazz musicians are at their instruments: i.e., the best. It's amazing what some of these guys can do. Sometimes you have to listen to it without music to appreciate it.

That said, you've got to be careful not to confuse the practitioners with the genre. It's not the same thing. The arguments here are about genre.

 

[apple strudel]

Your other two points in this post are simply refusals to admit the obvious, so I won't bother with them. This one is more amusing, though.

When you've got nothing, just feign casual disregard.

1.) Do some 'genres' of arts require more or less skill than others? In other words, is it generally more difficult to write a Haiku than a free prose poem, as an example?

How exactly does one measure this?

2.) Does it take more, less, or the same amount of skill to write a rap song in comparison to, say, a concerto?

You're suggesting that the measure is time? I can easily take 10 years to write a rap song. It must be the greatest ever! ugh: Tip: prolificness is not a measure of anything except prolificness, and vice versa.)

3.) Could you kindly give me the definition of "lazy-minded" that you're using, since it's pretty clearly not an official definition, yet you're claiming something is lazy-minded "by definition"?

Not rigorous. E.g., throwing out entire genres because you don't like them and pretending the criteria are objective.

 

[feldspar]

Clearly not. I am saying that drumming's pretty elementary from a musical theoretical perspective. All you really need to know is time signatures.

This is exactly why you are a hypocrite...doing the same taboo thing you accuse me of doing. You are stating this as fact, yet it isn't even close to being a fact. Are you giving your objective analysis on the skill and knowledge you need to have to play the drums? Comparing playing the drums to different instruments and stuff, are we? I've had a set of drums. It's a LOT harder than it looks. You have to know a lot to play the drums, and be physically able to do it. You're not just a monkey with a set of sticks.

Ironically, that's why a lot of rap artist's use drum machines.

 

[Deus Irae]

When you've got nothing, just feign casual disregard.

I had plenty. Your comment on Karaoke was particularly insightful as to your terrible arguments here.

How exactly does one measure this?

Why, you tell me. After all, you're the one who's been arguing the opposite on the genre-to-genre basis. I expect you could use whatever measurement you used for that assertion to answer my question.

You're suggesting that the measure is time? I can easily take 10 years to write a rap song. It must be the greatest ever! ugh: Tip: prolificness is not a measure of anything except prolificness, and vice versa.)

Not at all. I have deliberately offered no parameters for your measuring.

Not rigorous. E.g., throwing out entire genres because you don't like them and pretending the criteria are objective.

Ok, so you, without doing anything approaching a rigorous examination of the people who don't like a particular genre, are claiming that those people have not been rigorous.

Furthermore, you are then using your e.g. as if it's been explained, without even coming to an objective definition of 'rigorous' that you can prove those people who've been "throwing out entire genres" have failed to meet.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Those of us who dislike rap are not arguing that rapping takes skill, we are arguing that it takes immensely less skill than many other forms of music.

To be a great "rapper", what skills do you need?
You probably have to know a thing or two about rhythm, but I seriously doubt you need to know EVERYTHING about rhythm (simple & compound time, polyrhythms, complex cycles, syncopation, etc) and be able to play anything (switch meters with ease, etc).

You have to be able to write lyrics. So, yes, they are poets. I'll give them that. Do I think they are comparable to the best song writers (Great American Song Book, and the likes of Billy Joel, etc), No. Few have the knowledge (yes, I did just say that).

Melody. Here is where the skills cease to exist in rap. I HIGHLY doubt that there is a single rapper out there that has mastered melody alone. (can sing every mode (major modes, minor modes, melodic minor modes) along with all the other different scales (altered scales, chord scales, Indian and other 'regional' scales)).

Harmony. Here is something that is almost never found in rap music. Harmony is even MORE complex than melody. You have triads, tetrads, etc. You have counterpoint. You have enough theory and craft to cover to spend a lifetime mastering.

Improvisation. This is what REALLY sets apart Jazz from anything else. Great Jazz artists take ALL the skills I've listed bellow (with some others, too) and use it to create music on the fly. It takes many many years of practice, study, experience, skill, and talent to improvise well over any conceivable piece of music. Most of the greats spend most waking hours practicing their skill.

Composition. Again, Rap doesn't compare to any great Jazz or Classical music. Jazz and Classical compositions are far more complex than anything you will ever find in Rap and it takes far more knowledge and skill to be able to understand it and compose music in those genres.

On top of just the knowledge, most of the great Jazz and Classical artists are proficient in more than one instrument. How many rappers do you know that are proficient in many instruments (including experts in at least one)?

It simply doesn't take as much skill to be a great rapper as it does to be a great in many other genres. It's not even close.

 

[feldspar]

My problem is that this is an ignorant statement (how's that for conviction)?

Sounds a lot like opinion, homeboy.

You're much better off saying that practitioners hone their skill in whatever genre they chose to work in. That's how art and music work. It's certainly not the genre that is the limiting factor.

Here is a hypothetical to help make the point: a rapper writes a poem as well-regarded as a Williams poem, and then sets it to a beat and turns it into a rap song. Is the genre a limiting factor in the skill required to accomplish this?

I think that they should just stick to writing poetry. Even if there were profound lyrics, that doesn't mean they translate into a good song. Put Lincoln's Gettysburg Address to music...

You can hone your skill of painting Easter eggs, but even if you are the best in the world at that, you still aren't Rembrant. As you can see, it's all relative.

 

[glm]

Seriously, go listen to any pioneer of Jazz and tell me that ANY rapper is as talented or skillful. Seriously. It's like comparing some Hallmark card writer to a Mark Twain. Give me a break.

Because I'm sure the pioneers of Jazz were very skilled rappers.

 

[feldspar]

Those of us who dislike rap are not arguing that rapping takes skill, we are arguing that it takes immensely less skill than many other forms of music.

To be a great "rapper", what skills do you need?
You probably have to know a thing or two about rhythm, but I seriously doubt you need to know EVERYTHING about rhythm (simple & compound time, polyrhythms, complex cycles, syncopation, etc) and be able to play anything (switch meters with ease, etc).

You have to be able to write lyrics. So, yes, they are poets. I'll give them that. Do I think they are comparable to the best song writers (Great American Song Book, and the likes of Billy Joel, etc), No. Few have the knowledge (yes, I did just say that).

Melody. Here is where the skills cease to exist in rap. I HIGHLY doubt that there is a single rapper out there that has mastered melody alone. (can sing every mode (major modes, minor modes, melodic minor modes) along with all the other different scales (altered scales, chord scales, Indian and other 'regional' scales)).

Harmony. Here is something that is almost never found in rap music. Harmony is even MORE complex than melody. You have triads, tetrads, etc. You have counterpoint. You have enough theory and craft to cover to spend a lifetime mastering.

Improvisation. This is what REALLY sets apart Jazz from anything else. Great Jazz artists take ALL the skills I've listed bellow (with some others, too) and use it to create music on the fly. It takes many many years of practice, study, experience, skill, and talent to improvise well over any conceivable piece of music. Most of the greats spend most waking hours practicing their skill.

Composition. Again, Rap doesn't compare to any great Jazz or Classical music. Jazz and Classical compositions are far more complex than anything you will ever find in Rap and it takes far more knowledge and skill to be able to understand it and compose music in those genres.

On top of just the knowledge, most of the great Jazz and Classical artists are proficient in more than one instrument. How many rappers do you know that are proficient in many instruments (including experts in at least one)?

It simply doesn't take as much skill to be a great rapper as it does to be a great in many other genres. It's not even close.

I agree with most of this whole-heartedly. It's as clear as the nose on my face. I can't see how it would be possible to disagree with this, even if rap is your favorite music. The relative degree of difficulty was what I was originally talking about.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Because I'm sure the pioneers of Jazz were very skilled rappers.

I wonder which knew more about music?... The only skill I think some rappers posses that not all jazz musicians posses is the ability to talk fast... On the other hand, Jazz musicians poses many many more skills and are more knowledgeable about music.

I'll just flip that question around for you, too. I'm sure the "great" rappers are just as skilled at music as the pioneers of Jazz... right...

 

[apple strudel]

This is exactly why you are a hypocrite...doing the same taboo thing you accuse me of doing. You are stating this as fact, yet it isn't even close to being a fact. Are you giving your objective analysis on the skill and knowledge you need to have to play the drums? Comparing playing the drums to different instruments and stuff, are we? I've had a set of drums. It's a LOT harder than it looks. You have to know a lot to play the drums, and be physically able to do it. You're not just a monkey with a set of sticks.

Ironically, that's why a lot of rap artist's use drum machines.

You're having a hard time following the conversation? The point was specifically in response to discussing the amount of musical understanding required by instrumentalists versus singers:

Deus Irae:

It definitely takes a greater understanding of how music works to be an adequate instrumentalist than it does to be a singer, for example.

Drummers require less (if any) knowledge of key, chord and notes, and more knowledge of strictly rhythm. Less overall musical knowledge, but far more rhythmic knowledge, just like any specialist.

I drummed for years, and it's a different skill set, and you use different pieces of musical knowledge. Is it easier? Not to be Elvin Jones. Is it less overall musical knowledge? Arguably. I could drum for years and not care about major or minor.

 

[apple strudel]

You can hone your skill of painting Easter eggs, but even if you are the best in the world at that, you still aren't Rembrant. As you can see, it's all relative.

Uhh...

 

[Satchboogie3]

And that makes you a great drummer? The All-time great drummers DO understand melody and harmony... and that's part of what makes them so great. Great Jazz drummers like Jack DeJohnette, Steve Gadd, Tony Williams, etc were actually very knowledgeable about melody, harmony, and composition.

Most importantly, though, is that they MASTERED rhythm. You're average rock drummer doesn't have anywhere near the skill and knowledge as the great jazz drummers.

 

[apple strudel]

I had plenty. Your comment on Karaoke was particularly insightful as to your terrible arguments here.

Value judgments masquerading as arguments. Sweet!

Why, you tell me. After all, you're the one who's been arguing the opposite on the genre-to-genre basis. I expect you could use whatever measurement you used for that assertion to answer my question.

You're getting there.

Not at all. I have deliberately offered no parameters for your measuring.

Closer.

Ok, so you, without doing anything approaching a rigorous examination of the people who don't like a particular genre, are claiming that those people have not been rigorous.

Furthermore, you are then using your e.g. as if it's been explained, without even coming to an objective definition of 'rigorous' that you can prove those people who've been "throwing out entire genres" have failed to meet.

Precisely because there are no objective criteria to apply across genres! It's a fool's argument. :ugh:

 

[feldspar]

You're having a hard time following the conversation? The point was specifically in response to discussing the amount of musical understanding required by instrumentalists versus singers:.

ha, ha, ha. Classic. I'm the one that started that line of the conversation. You only differentiate between subjectivity vs. objectivity when it suits your purpose, which is to crap all over my opinion. You do the same things as I, yet you pretend not to. That's MY point.

Deus Irae:

Drummers require less (if any) knowledge of key, chord and notes, and more knowledge of strictly rhythm. Less overall musical knowledge, but far more rhythmic knowledge, just like any specialist.

I drummed for years, and it's a different skill set, and you use different pieces of musical knowledge. Is it easier? Not to be Elvin Jones. Is it less overall musical knowledge? Arguably. I could drum for years and not care about major or minor.

Explain the particular skill set it takes to rap, then relate that to other forms of music and knowledge of music. Let's see what YOUR take on that is. Please, be objective. LOL. A lot of rappers rap to prerecorded machines...how's that for easy? Stepped over a lot of barriers there, didn't they?

 

[Deus Irae]

Value judgments masquerading as arguments. Sweet!

Not at all. You went subjective about your argument. If you can't see the reason that wasn't worth commenting upon, that's on you. It's not, however, a value judgment at all.

Precisely because there are no objective criteria to apply across genres! It's a fool's argument. :ugh:

If there are no objective criteria, how does one call anyone lazy minded for using whatever criteria that person chooses, be it "I like gum and music that sounds like the popping of bubble gum" or "I don't really like any music that doesn't have multiple harmonies and improvisations", or anything else?