John Clayton: Pats Talking with Raiders About Derrick Burgess

[aluminum seats]

Don't fee like wading through 18 pages, but I will say this......I'm all for the Pats giving up some picks to improve the LB group THIS YEAR. I understand that the Pats have been predicated on long-term success, but the linebacking group right now will not win a Super Bowl. I would like to go into the season with the feeling that the Pats might win again, rather than hearing about how deep the draft might be in 2012. The Pats are looking into many possibilities, so they clearly know it's not a championship team right now--let's hope they're able to make a deal.

 

[signbabybrady]

I mean BB didn't want to draft a Connor Barwin with a 2nd, yet he's contemplating spending a 2nd on a declining Burgess, I just don't see that logic.

Could he have got Barwin in the third? NO

I ask because the 2s next year were aquired with 3s from this year so is not the same. What you are leaving out is Burgess Vs Barwin minus one of our other 2nd rd picks.

 

[patchick]

Could he have got Barwin in the third? NO

I ask because the 2s next year were aquired with 3s from this year so is not the same. What you are leaving out is Burgess Vs Barwin minus one of our other 2nd rd picks.

I think the real difference is 2009 vs. 2010 and beyond.

IF Burgess can be a starter or a heavy rotational player in 2009, that means he's an instant upgrade to a championship-caliber roster and an extra rung up the ladder to the Superbowl. Even those (like me) who hoped for Barwin were looking to him as the future, not the present. It's a whole different value equation; not better or worse, just different.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I confess I really don't know the player's fit for this team, but from general management principles, if defensive expert BB determines that he is what is needed to take the D to a SB level which I doubt, then even as much as a 2nd round pick for only one year worst case is worth it. Since we have multiple #2s such a move does not compromise the long term competitiveness. It is imperative to make strong management moves to go for the whole enchelada while Brady is still in his prime.

That said look at the VALUE we got trading a 2nd (and a 7th to many Patsfans dismay) for Welker. What a steal. Then the 4th for Moss... And yes I remember the Garbriel trade et. al. fiascos.

We're spoiled.

 

[TimU]

I guess it depends on whether you like Burgess more than Vrabel and consider Chung to be worthless.

Trading Cassel would have resulted in Chung and Burgess vs. Vrabel in the worst case that we trade a #2.

No, its Chung and Burgess v. Vrabel and a #2. I'm pointing out that whatever advantage the Pats get out of that exchange (if any) is a very scant return on Cassell. They had to be hoping for more on the day they tagged him.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

No, its Chung and Burgess v. Vrabel and a #2.

No it is not. You said :

The team on the field and the cap situation just aren't that different than if we had let Cassell go as a free agent.

If we had let Cassel go as a FA we would have Vrabel and a 2010 comp pick, likely a #3. Instead we have Chung and Burgess (assuming the trade for the purpose of this thread).

Like that trade or not, you can't say we got no value for Cassel then include the #2 we got for him on that side of the equation.

If Burgess gets more pass rush than Vrabel and we add Chung, that's not bad IMO.

 

[Deus Irae]

So if we got a 2 for Cassell and Vrabel, but now give up a 2 for Burgess in order to replace Vrabel, the franchising of Casell really didn't help us that much, did it? The team on the field and the cap situation just aren't that different than if we had let Cassell go as a free agent.

It was worth a shot, but it didn't really work out.

No, see, you just don't understand the brilliance of moving more quickly than necessary on the Cassel deal at the expense of other offers. There's a whole host of posters here who'll be happy to explain it all to you.

 

[spacecrime]

No, see, you just don't understand the brilliance of moving more quickly than necessary on the Cassel deal at the expense of other offers. There's a whole host of posters here who'll be happy to explain it all to you.

I can explain it in two words: Taylor and Baker. If you check dates you will see that their signings were not official until after the trade of Cassel. I don't know why people cannot understand the need for money to sign FAs, or the fact that high second in hand is worth a possible low first in the bush.

 

[DefenseRules]

I just read in the insiders forum that the Patriots are willing to give up a 3rd round pick for Burgess, but the Raiders are holding out for a second. However, they want to move Burgess as soon as possible because they don't want to be responsible for his salary if he gets hurt. Stay Tuned.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No, see, you just don't understand the brilliance of moving more quickly than necessary on the Cassel deal at the expense of other offers. There's a whole host of posters here who'll be happy to explain it all to you.

No, you just can't accept there were no other offers on the horizen. More quickly than necessary is just your opinion based on whatever you thought Cassel was worth. And that analysis was based on media spin and common sense, only one was wrong and the other isn't always in play in the NFL.

I trust Bill did his due diligence and found that the teams who would be giving up a first for a QB were not interested in Cassel at that price because he told us he did. Waiting around for some one of them to come to his senses wasn't an option, especially considering that getting a deal done with most potential suitors was also going to require a long term deal for Cassel. The only team left standing from the list of potential suitors pre draft who didn't move on the position is Minnesota, and they are playing coy with your binky now which was likely their plan since last July anyway... Detroit and Tampa didn't want Cassel unless he netted them Cutler, and that wasn't going to happen until Cutler alienated Denver's owner which didn't happen for weeks. Absent that they preferred to go with draftees, and they did. He was never going to be traded to the NYJ who also drafted their guy. Chicago landed Cutler because they had a functional QB to trade in addition to picks. Who else was there to trade a guy with a $14.6M cap hit to??? It made no sense to wait a couple of weeks to find out the answer was no one when at best the gain would have been a couple of hundred points on a draft chart and at worst it might have meant losing ground or being saddled with the player until draft day when all the targeted FA were long gone.

KC had the cap space to do the deal and the need for veteran leadership on defense to allow them to fold cutting Vrabel into the deal. And it allowed the team to move on and enter the draft without multiple glaring needs to fill since they did much of that via FA in the weeks immediately following FA. And that allowed them to persue value in the draft including adding multiple 2nds for 2010.

The sweet spot in this draft was from the mid 20's to the mid 40's. So from a value standpoint it made no sense for Bill to risk FA holding out for a low 1st vs. a high 2nd. Had it been there at the outset he probably would have taken it and parlayed it into yet another 2010 pick, but since it wasn't he didn't allow himself to stubbornly persue a hard line that in hindsight was not going to yield commensurate reward.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, you just can't accept there were no other offers on the horizen. More quickly than necessary is just your opinion based on whatever you thought Cassel was worth. And that analysis was based on media spin and common sense, only one was wrong and the other isn't always in play in the NFL.

I trust Bill did his due diligence and found that the teams who would be giving up a first for a QB were not interested in Cassel at that price because he told us he did. Waiting around for some one of them to come to his senses wasn't an option, especially considering that getting a deal done with most potential suitors was also going to require a long term deal for Cassel. The only team left standing from the list of potential suitors pre draft who didn't move on the position is Minnesota, and they are playing coy with your binky now which was likely their plan since last July anyway... Detroit and Tampa didn't want Cassel unless he netted them Cutler, and that wasn't going to happen until Cutler alienated Denver's owner which didn't happen for weeks. Absent that they preferred to go with draftees, and they did. He was never going to be traded to the NYJ who also drafted their guy. Chicago landed Cutler because they had a functional QB to trade in addition to picks. Who else was there to trade a guy with a $14.6M cap hit to??? It made no sense to wait a couple of weeks to find out the answer was no one when at best the gain would have been a couple of hundred points on a draft chart and at worst it might have meant losing ground or being saddled with the player until draft day when all the targeted FA were long gone.

KC had the cap space to do the deal and the need for veteran leadership on defense to allow them to fold cutting Vrabel into the deal. And it allowed the team to move on and enter the draft without multiple glaring needs to fill since they did much of that via FA in the weeks immediately following FA. And that allowed them to persue value in the draft including adding multiple 2nds for 2010.

The sweet spot in this draft was from the mid 20's to the mid 40's. So from a value standpoint it made no sense for Bill to risk FA holding out for a low 1st vs. a high 2nd. Had it been there at the outset he probably would have taken it and parlayed it into yet another 2010 pick, but since it wasn't he didn't allow himself to stubbornly persue a hard line that in hindsight was not going to yield commensurate reward.

1.) I was joking, which is why I put the smiley in. One deal does not automatically apply to another.

2.) There were more offers on the horizon, as Bill has openly acknowledged. The only issues unknown to us are the timetable and the exact firmness of the offers.

3.) Have a nice day.

 

[Deus Irae]

I can explain it in two words: Taylor and Baker. If you check dates you will see that their signings were not official until after the trade of Cassel. I don't know why people cannot understand the need for money to sign FAs, or the fact that high second in hand is worth a possible low first in the bush.

I'm not going through all this again, so have a nice day.


I guess I used the wrong smiley the first time.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I just read in the insiders forum that the Patriots are willing to give up a 3rd round pick for Burgess, but the Raiders are holding out for a second. However, they want to move Burgess as soon as possible because they don't want to be responsible for his salary if he gets hurt. Stay Tuned.

They gave AZ a third for Starks, who had two years left on his deal. Burgess only has one. If they are willing to trade a third I'd be surprised unless it's either conditional or comes with a pseudo extension (like guaranteeing his 2009 salary in exchange for a 2010 team option bonus that would extend him for three more years...) because othewise he's a one year rental player and that isn't worth a third unless he turns in a pro bowl contract season and ultimately gets us to the SB. After which we could tag and trade him...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

1.) I was joking, which is why I put the smiley in. One deal does not automatically apply to another.

2.) There were more offers on the horizon, as Bill has openly acknowledged. The only issues unknown to us are the timetable and the exact firmness of the offers.

3.) Have a nice day.

Bill has never acknowledged there were more offers on the horizen. What he said is the offers from Detroit and Tampa weren't even really firm offers, just proposals predicated on their ability to land another player who at that time was not available. And having poled teams just 48 hours earlier, there was nothing else involving teams actually interested in Cassel. And any comments to the contrary he attributed to teams covering their asses in the media with a dose of revisionist spin.

And you have a nice day too!!

 

[AzPatsFan]

Davis is going to demand a 2nd, and in the end I doubt Belichick gives him that. That's a steep price; but I'd like to see it happen for a 3rd round pick. At 31, a guy can come in and have two or three good seasons, which is basically exactly what we need while we develop the young OLB talent we have right now. I'm all for this move, but I think Al Davis is still stung about the Randy fleecing, and he'll probably cut off his nose to spite his face and demand a high pick. I just don't see it. A 2nd round pick for this guy? I mean, maybe...but can he set the edge?

No he can't That was the big knock on Burgess. That is what relegates him to a WOLB, or third down pass rush specialist.

In my view, the Starters would ramain AD at WOLB, who can set the edge; and Woods at SOLB, whose best talent to date is setting the edge. With TBC who does have edge setting deficiencies, backing up Thomas and perhaps Burgess would be the designated third down rusher at SOLB. If Woods produces no pass rush. Even though the Coaches say Pierre is a good pass rusher in practice; and his pass rush will come, as he continues to get comfortable as the SOLB starter.

In all out pass rushing situations. you could let AD rush from inside at ILB, with DB at WOLB and TBC at SOLB. I would thinkthat would be a formidable pass rush, with the interior contributions from Seymour, Green and Wright inside.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

No he can't That was the big knock on Burgess. That is what relegates him to a WOLB, or third down pass rush specialist.

In my view, the Starters would ramain AD at WOLB, who can set the edge; and Woods at SOLB. With TBC backing up Thomas and perhaps Burgess would be the designated third down rusher at SOLB, if Woods produces no pass rush. Even though the Coaches say Pierre is a good pass rusher in practice; and his pass rush will come, as he continues to get commfortable as the SOLB starter.

In all out pass rushing situations. you could let AD rush from inside at ILB, with DB at WOLB and TBC at SOLB.

There's so many pass rushing downs now that I would happily trade a #3 if Burgess can really get the job done - heck, help us with a consistent pass rush and I'll give up a #2. He doesn't need to be "a starter" or to "set the edge" to be a key component of the defense (I'm agreeing with your post, btw, not arguing).

 

[unoriginal]

Bill has never acknowledged there were more offers on the horizen. What he said is the offers from Detroit and Tampa weren't even really firm offers, just proposals predicated on their ability to land another player who at that time was not available.

You're all talking about the exact same thing using different words.

 

[JoeSixPat]

When these discussions come about it always seems to me that conditional picks make the most sense... give the Raiders a 4th no matter what but allow that to become a 2nd rounder if he becomes an impact player or hits simple incentives such as games played.... if he's a bust or injured it's fair compensation and worth the risk...

If he becomes the player we hope we'd have no problem giving up a 2nd or more.

 

[PatriotsDaily.com]

Probably worthy of its own thread, but I'm still a few posts short of that...

Clayton also names the Patriots as one of the four teams that he thinks could be interested in Michael Vick:

Vick's next home? Take a guess

4. New England Patriots: This is an example of a great organization with a head coach (Bill Belichick) who is strong enough to take a gamble on talent. If Belichick is interested, he'd first have to convince his owner, Robert Kraft. That might be tough. Kraft cares about the public image of his franchise. It's also not known if Kraft could accept Vick's transgressions. But let's look at it from the football side. The Dolphins are light years ahead of the rest of the league in running the Wildcat offense. They drafted Pat White in the second round to carry the Wildcat to new levels. Because the Patriots must prepare for the Wildcat, why not bring in Vick, the ultimate Wildcat weapon? The Patriots haven't reached outside to replace Matt Cassel. If Kraft accepts him, Vick could be an interesting possibility for a few plays per game in New England.

 

[Zeus]

When NE has traded secound round picks (Welker, Corey Dillon), they got players who were expected to play a significant role.

Burgess' productivity and durability have declined every year since 2005. He would be a situational rather than every down player. Given age, injuries and recent productivity, this is a pretty speculative investment. The Raiders seem quite anxious to trade the player; if unable to trade, might they have to release him?

I just don't see how this guy merits a #2 or even #3. More likely value is a #4 or #5.