Bad news from Peter King

[Deus Irae]

He was due an $8.6M bonus - that will get a lot of players cut.

He'd just signed the contract at the beginning of the same season. Go back and take a look at Mo's post, #58 on this thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/233302-bad-news-peter-king-page2.html#post1371098

How this guy is somehow now the successor to sliced bread around here before he's even gotten on the field in training camp is something I just can't figure out.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm going to use an analogy from the athlete's perspective. Let's say there's a really good kicker, and he's made a lot of big kicks and had great success. Suddenly, he misses a few, ones he normally would make, ones he's made easily in the past. That kicker starts making strange adjustments to try to get the rhythm back, and ends up tweaking his mechanics too much and is never the same again.

We would say of that kicker that the misses got in his head, and that you need to be able to put those misses behind you and focus on doing the things you do well to get back on track.

When BB signs, drafts, or trades for a player that doesn't work out, do you then want him second guessing his decisions to the point where he does things out of character? You essentially want BB to say, "I feel good about these corners, but because I've made mistakes in the past, I'm going to sacrifice what I think is a chance to add depth and talent to other areas just in case I made a mistake here"?

I don't want my coach making decisions like that.

Yes, I want him second guessing his decisions. I want him third guessing his decisions. I want him pondering those decisions years later in off moments during a vacation in Hawaii. That's how you improve yourself, in a host of professions. If that throws him off his game, he needs to retire.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

How this guy is somehow now the successor to sliced bread around here before he's even gotten on the field in training camp is something I just can't figure out.

No-one is saying that, we're just saying he doesn't suck. Our pass defense has been horrible, even in 2007 with Hobbs and Samuel we were eaten up by the likes of Feely and Boller. Our pass defense (lack of) quality was obscured by the massive leads we had. Springs, Bodden, W, W, Butler may not get it done but it's time to try someone else IMO. I would have little more confidence if you added Hobbs to the mix.

 

[Sicilian]

Yes, I want him second guessing his decisions. I want him third guessing his decisions. I want him pondering those decisions years later in off moments during a vacation in Hawaii. That's how you improve yourself, in a host of professions. If that throws him off his game, he needs to retire.

That's EXACTLY my point. You ponder it, but you don't make other decisions under the assumption that you've screwed up. That's precisely HOW it throws off your game.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

He'd just signed the contract at the beginning of the same season. Go back and take a look at Mo's post, #58 on this thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/233302-bad-news-peter-king-page2.html#post1371098

So he was a disappointment there. Fine. He was still cut in large part due to money - has he had a $1M cap hit we don't know that he would have been cut so to say he was cut by the 0-16 Lions, without mentioning the contract, is disingenuous even if they're the team that signed the contract.

 

[Deus Irae]

No-one is saying that, we're just saying he doesn't suck. Our pass defense has been horrible, even in 2007 with Hobbs and Samuel we were eaten up by the likes of Feely and Boller. Our pass defense (lack of) quality was obscured by the massive leads we had. Springs, Bodden, W, W, Butler may not get it done but it's time to try someone else IMO. I would have little more confidence if you added Hobbs to the mix.

See you're not even disagreeing with me. You're saying the same thing, but pulling the "but BB...." card. Hobbs didn't need to be traded. It was a needless risk to take for a player that could have been gotten in some other way. He could always have been traded later, if the team decided to go that route after seeing what else they had while in camp.

It's not as if the team didn't find a way to get what seems like a 900th tight end into camp by trading for him post draft, after all. My problem is that BB is good enough at working the draft that this was a bad move. If he stunk working the draft, I'd have no problem with this because I'd expect nothing better.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's EXACTLY my point. You ponder it, but you don't make other decisions under the assumption that you've screwed up. That's precisely HOW it throws off your game.

It's called self-scouting when it comes to game tendencies, just for example. Of course you make other decisions under the assumption that you've screwed up if, upon reflection, you determine that you screwed up. That's how you fix the problem.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

See you're not even disagreeing with me.

I agree that I would have kept Hobbs even though I consider him a below average starter and we would lose him to FA in 12 months. I'm not agreeing with a lot of the rest of what you're saying.

 

[Deus Irae]

So he was a disappointment there. Fine. He was still cut in large part due to money - has he had a $1M cap hit we don't know that he would have been cut so to say he was cut by the 0-16 Lions, without mentioning the contract, is disingenuous even if they're the team that signed the contract.

And it's also the Lions, so one could say that

a.) He sucks because a team that bad didn't want him

or

b.) He got hosed because it's the Lions and the Lions are idiots.

The point is that we, including BB, won't know which it is until he's on the field. And, at this point, this has all become a circular discussion.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree that I would have kept Hobbs even though I consider him a below average starter and we would lose him to FA in 12 months. I'm not agreeing with a lot of the rest of what you're saying.

Given that this post is what I've been saying (not the "below average stuff, but the keeping of Hobbs) and you've been arguing with me based upon Leigh Bodden & company despite agreeing with me on what I'm saying, it really makes no sense to continue in this vein.

 

[Sicilian]

It's called self-scouting when it comes to game tendencies, just for example. Of course you make other decisions under the assumption that you've screwed up if, upon reflection, you determine that you screwed up. That's how you fix the problem.

I think you misunderstand me. When you realize you screwed up, you look at it and try to figure out why and how you can do better in the future. What you don't do is then second guess every decision you've made because you've screwed up in the past, at least not to the point where you're making personnel moves to buffer your own decisions.

If BB feels confident in the five CBs we have, should he sacrifice other potential areas of improvement because the Starks trade and Bryant signings didn't work out? I don't agree that that's how you approach situations like this.

 

[fourthandmiles]

What teams have had the injury bonanza in the defensive backfield with the severity and consistency that the Patriots have had since 2005? Do you think it's just a coincidence that the Patriots DBs get hurt more than womens' feelings at an "I'm dumping you for your sister" episode of Jerry Springer?

My favorite quote on this board was from a few years back "our DBs have the durability of a chair in a western movie". Don't remember who said it.

 

[Sicilian]

The point is that we, including BB, won't know which it is until he's on the field. And, at this point, this has all become a circular discussion.

I'm sure he's watched a lot more film of Bodden than any of us have, so don't assume that he's just as much in dark about the situation than we, the fans are.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I am assuming it was a matter of a price tag. BB has an idea of how much his 5 (usually) corners will collectively be paid, and how to maximize the ability within that budget. Hall's asking price was likely a bit too much. I don 't have data to back that up, but it is my best guess.

I hear you.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you misunderstand me. When you realize you screwed up, you look at it and try to figure out why and how you can do better in the future. What you don't do is then second guess every decision you've made because you've screwed up in the past, at least not to the point where you're making personnel moves to buffer your own decisions.

If BB feels confident in the five CBs we have, should he sacrifice other potential areas of improvement because the Starks trade and Bryant signings didn't work out? I don't agree that that's how you approach situations like this.

Well, pretty much every successful business owner I knows thinks that you should take prior mistakes into account. You seem to prefer ignoring them. That is what you're saying here, despite your claim that it's not.

If you've drafted 5 pitchers with a certain 'style' (say, knuckleballer) and every one of them has sucked, It behooves you to think long and hard about drafting a 6th one. Again, if you can't grow enough to recognize a weakness of your own, it's time to quit your job and go to work for someone else who CAN see your screw ups and adjust for them.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm sure he's watched a lot more film of Bodden than any of us have, so don't assume that he's just as much in dark about the situation than we, the fans are.

I'm sure he'd watched a lot more film of Bryant and Starks, too.

 

[Sicilian]

Well, pretty much every successful business owner I knows thinks that you should take prior mistakes into account. You seem to prefer ignoring them. That is what you're saying here, despite your claim that it's not.

If you've drafted 5 pitchers with a certain 'style' (say, knuckleballer) and every one of them has sucked, It behooves you to think long and hard about drafting a 6th one. Again, if you can't grow enough to recognize a weakness of your own, it's time to quit your job and go to work for someone else who CAN see your screw ups and adjust for them.

No, I have never said ignore them. I say look at them, grow from them, but don't let them hamstring you from doing what you think is best in future situations.

And what makes you think Springs, Bodden, and Butler are anything like Bryant and Starks? Have you studied the scouting reports extensively? Watched a lot of game film on them all? Compared the pros and cons? No, so who's to say they AREN'T a departure from the usual CBs he brings in?

 

[Deus Irae]

No, I have never said ignore them. I say look at them, grow from them, but don't let them hamstring you from doing what you think is best in future situations.

And what makes you think Springs, Bodden, and Butler are anything like Bryant and Starks? Have you studied the scouting reports extensively? Watched a lot of game film on them all? Compared the pros and cons? No, so who's to say they AREN'T a departure from the usual CBs he brings in?

Ok, this offseason just keeps getting more and more bizarre with the quality posters sort of losing it around here.

1.) When did I say he had hamstrung himself?

2.) If my argument is simply that he could have found a way to get his player that didn't involve giving up Ellis Hobbs, how does that have anything to do with second guessing himself into a stupor based upon past maneuvers?

3.) When did I say that I thought Springs, Bodden and Butler are anything like Bryant and Starks as opposed to merely pointing out possibilities and evaluating the comparative success of Bryant and Bodden? Hell, I like the Springs signing, a lot.

4.) Who gives a rat's ass whether or not I've watched film on any of these players, since it has ZERO to do with my point?

Here are some arguments that BB could make that would at least make sense:

a.) Hobbs was being an ass behind close doors and was a detriment to the team as a result

b.) Hobbs had already made it clear that he would not re-sign with the team and was threatening a hold out if he weren't traded

c.) The money saved is essential to signing Jason Taylor/Richard Seymour/Vince Wilfork and that signing must occur prior to any cuts being made for some valid reason

d.) Despite all his wheeling and dealing skills that were on full display during draft time, there was absolutely no other way to get this kid and he was a must have player (Of course, if he were really a must have player, he could have been gotten earlier, but this would at least be a sensible argument).

Those reasons could be convincing. "I needed to trade a starter for 2 fifth round draft picks so that I could draft an O-lineman in the 5th round just 'cause" doesn't work for me. It works for you. We disagree.

Given that the team now has about 500 tight ends trying out, the "how many can we keep?" argument makes no sense. Given the Starks/Bryant/Webster/etc. past, the "BB's seen the film" argument holds no water. The move may work out brilliantly. That doesn't mean it needed to go down the way it did, and it doesn't mean that I have to love it.

 

[Brarrell]

Bodden's "success" was limited. An UDFA RAC did not draft, he got his shot at starting due to injury, and after playing well for part of a season they immediately rewarded him with an overpriced extension. He struggled after landing that first big deal and missed several games the following season. And after the next season inspite of 6 picks they traded him to Detroit. He struggled there but more significantly he whined and exhibited substantial ego (built in large part apparently by Ocho Stinko's equally ego driven assessment of him...he owned the Bungles who accounted for half of his 6 INTS in 2007) given his circumstances. Bill demands his players check egos at the door...

This is from a Browns site on the eve of his release by Detroit:



RAC may have played similar schemes in Cleveland, but his coaching style was the anthesis of Belichick's. Bill is all about accountability and responsibility and sacrificing personal achievement for the greater good.

Players are offered and sign prove it deals for a reason, usually flags of some sort. Sometimes it works out for everyone, other times it doesn't. If he plays well here he will chase his market. If he doesn't he won't be back here anyway.

Springs is what he is - 34 and oft injured. Bodden is on a prove it deal. Wheatley and Whilhite are sophomores with little experience here let alone as NFL starters. Butler is a rookie 2nd rounder from a class devoid of top tier talent at the position. Both he and Wheatley are considered undersized...and Wheatley ended his rookie season on IR after his first start. If that doesn't give you pause the way we historically blow through DB's...

Undersize! Hobbs was 5'8" Wheatley and Butler are both 5' 10, 5' 11 guys. I would say the average cb in the league is probably 5'10".

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Undersize! Hobbs was 5'8" Wheatley and Butler are both 5' 10, 5' 11 guys. I would say the average cb in the league is probably 5'10".

Maybe but I don't think this is a big factor and I believe that BB has also said so in other interviews. And weren't our WRs, pre-Moss that is, shorter than the avg WR in the league?