Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[Jared]

In 3 seasons, Pete manged to "clean things up" so well, that the Pats went from 10-6 to 5-11.

Minor quibble: Pete finished 8-8. BB had the 5-11 season after gutting the team.

 

[upstater1]

Soft, players coach after a hard-nosed, disciplined coach. Doesn't tend to work. I like Pete Carroll a great deal - if I had a son who could play college football, I would want him to play for a Carroll more than any other coach. As a Patriots fan, though, NO THANKS.

It surprises me that you say that. I would rather have my son play for coaches like Kirk Ferentz, Nick Saban, Jim Tressel, etc.

Here's my take on Pete Carroll: in the NFL, he was a rah-rah guy that, IMO, used to make himself look foolish on the sidelines. A few images stick out. One, he gave the choke signal to Pete Stoyanivich and it backfired on him. Two, he had a habit of going wild and celebrating missed field goals by the opposition in the 1st quarter. Three, he talked a good game, but couldn't back it up. Who in New England can forget Mr.Pump'd-n-Jack'd?

Now he take his act to college, and what do I see? His players deliberately started fights with Notre Dame and a couple of other schools before the game. The players do a coordinated dance on the field in the 2nd quarter, about 40 of them, all off the bench, and the coaches join in!! Pete himself grabs a football and he's parading it down the sideline like he intercepted it. Please. He doesn't suspend players ever who get into serious trouble.

He reminds me of Jimmy Johnson, and his team is the Miami of the 1980s, 20 years forward. He's a good guy for what he does in the community, and he's not a cuss or son-of-b****. He's a nice man. But he doesn't have class, and his players are out of control. He recruits very very well. But because of the loose atmosphere they lose a big game every year. He's won one national championship. His school is the premier program in college football. He has more NFL player on his team than anyone else. Cassel is a tribute to that.

I'm a college football fan, and it's not like the pros. In college football, you really do have to win with some dignity. Otherwise it's not worth it. Why? Because of the student athlete element. There's some self-policing in college ball, much like golf. It's too easy to game the system to your advantage, and I think Pete is doing this somewhat. I don't blame him for running up the score, recruiting the best kids, dominating in games. That's good. Just get a hold of your kids.

Finally, the lasting image I will always have of Pete is in his last year in New England, the Patriots were behind big, and started making a comeback. They came back fro, 3 TDs down, and in the final minute were moving down the field with an excellent hurry-up offense. Drew was at his best in this offense. He brought the team from the Pats 5 yard line down to the opponent's 35 in relentless fashion. The defense was sucking wind. Carroll decided to stop the hurry-up and call a time-out to gather the team. Terry Glenn was standing right in front of him; he just shook his head, laughed at Pete, with a look that said, "Are you crazy?" Bledsoe and Glenn were just ignoring Carroll and lining up against when Carroll went ballistic and called TO in front of the referee. Bledsoe and Glenn went at it with Carroll on the sidelines. The Patriots went back on the field, and lost.

Moral of the story: Pete is a front-runner. He commands respect from his players in college because he recruits the best and they dominate. In the NFL, his rah-rah act wears thin. I', sure Pete is a very nice person with good qualities, but I have very little respect for the way he conducts himself on the football field, and for how his team acts under him. This has been a problem of his throughout his career, not only at USC.

So, why did I write this long screed against him? Because I'm a big college football fan, and I don't like to see the classless stuff I see from USC. Guys like Randy Shannon at Miami have run their programs with class. Carroll has no excuses.

 

[Joker]

yep...10-6, 9-7, 8-8...guess I wanna blame that 5-11 on him too

I admit, I'm a harsh critic of his but by year three, he was almost universally despised

 

[JoeSixPat]

It was beyond poor drafts. Carroll never had control of the team.

If there was any question as to whether Kraft would make a change, it was clearly all over during a late season 1999 game when Carroll was desparately signaling from the sideline for a time out, Bledsoe looked right at him, ignored him, and proceeded to complete a critical pass

I think that was the end of Carroll right there - Kraft knew that if his team's players - including Bledsoe, had that little confidence in their coach, that Carroll had to go - and sure enough he soon did.

You can't let that stand as a coach. But Carroll just acted like he either never made the time out or made believe Bledsoe hadn't seen him. It was clear to everyone that wasn't the case, but Carroll didn't assert himself. So Kraft did.

After his 6-10 record (in the season when he was duped by Marino's fake spike) I never had much confidence in his coaching myself. That being said, in the College World, where recruiting is everything, I'd have to say he's a perfect match for USC.

There's lots of top young recruits who like nothing more to play for an established top tier team that plays for a laid back coach in a laid back Southern California college (amid laid back Southern California girls). That's a good combination to continue to attract top talent and continue a winning tradition.

The same equation doesn't work at the pro level.

 

[upstater1]

In my opinion, though Parcells was a jerk in the way he went about it, he was right to leave. Although Poodle Pete was kind of silly for the NFL, his biggest problem was the guy that drovr Parcells away, Bobby Grier.

He was a total incompetent as GM, and also undermined the coach, talking to the players behind his back. Pete had no authority (because Grier was Kraft's guy) and the worst bunch of draft picks I've ever seen, courtesy of Bobby G.

As I remember it, Kraft got wind of Parcells' playing footsie with the Jets in the spring before his last campaign. He confronted Parcells who denied it. Kraft gave Parcells an ultimatum. Extend his contract with the Patriots. Parcells refused, he wanted to be a free agent. Given the fact that Parcells could not commit to the Patriots, Kraft had no choice but to strip his GM rights. You don't give the Jets next coach/GM control of your future draft. That's just dumb. Bobby grier, by the way, chose Terry Glenn over Parcells' pick, which was DE Brackens. Glenn broke the rookie record for receptions and was integral to the Super Bowl run, and he became a Parcells' favorite. under Carroll, Glenn backslid and became the cancer we saw in the early Belichick year. He was soft as a player because of his personal history and needed an authoritarian like Parcells to keep him inline.

I'm not blaming any of this on Bobby Grier. Grier was just a guy who whiffed in the draft, but he had nothing to do with the Parcells fiasco. Obviously, Parcells showed what kind guy he as when jumped from franchise to franchise for many years after that.

 

[upstater1]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jones, DE Greg Spires
'97: DT Brandon Mitchell
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, DL Chris Sullivan

Grier's drafts were not good at all. But now when I look at that list, they were actually somewhat better than what I remembered. Katzenmoyer didn't work out because of his career-ending injury, but he was a good athlete and player. Woody is still in the league and gave a few years of really good service. Faulk and Edwards were very good picks. Tebucky was so-so, and Greg Spires was a find. Brandon Mitchell was a starter on our Super Bowl winner, Glenn was excellent for a short while, Milloy a Pro Bowler, and Bruschi is Mr. Patriot.

4 drafts, 9 good players.

That's not good enough... but, some guys from other teams have done worse.

 

[upstater1]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk, S Tony George, CB J'Juan Cherry
Pats traded away their 1st, 3rd & 6th round draft pick to move up three slots to get Woody.
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jonrs, WR Tony Simmons, TE Rob Rutledge, FB Chris Floyd, DE Greg Spires, DE Leonta Rheams
Edwards and Floyd were compensation for Curtis Martin; Simmons was compensation for Parcells.
'97: CB Chris Canty, DT Brandon Mitchell, RB Sedrick Shaw, S Chris Carter, G Damon Denson, T Ed Ellis
Shaw and Ellis were compensation for Parcells.

By comparison, here's the first four rounds of the previous three drafts:
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, OL Heath Irwin, DL Chris Sullivan, FB Kantroy Barber
Pats also traded away a draft pick for T Pat Harlow
'95: CB Ty Law, LB Ted Johnson, RB Curtis Martin, CB Jimmy Hitchcoock; C Dave Wohlabaugh
'94: LB Willie McGinest, WR Kevin Lee, DT Ernie Collier, C Joe Burch, TE John Burke

Just as an FYI, Grier ran the 1996 draft, because Parcells stormed out and didn't return after Kraft went with the Glenn pick over Brackens.

You have to put the 1996 draft on Grier's side of the ledger.

 

[upstater1]

Disagree. Although they couldn't win the big games, the Cowboys are what, 22-10 under Philips after Parcells left?
Pete Carrol failed in the NFL because he wasn't able to convince kids to come play in NE the way he can convince kids to play in California. Not to mention that at USC, he has so much more talent and such great assistants, all he has to do is be a cheerleader...which he does quite well.

+1

I actually think he is also an excellent defensive coach, but in general I agree with what you say here. His personality, plus all the talent in Cali, plus USC's history, bring the best players in the country to USC. He owns the town.

 

[upstater1]

Bobby Grier inherited a pretty good team that needed some backup

players. Unfortunately, the players he drafted were simply not of

starting calibre. When the starters started began to leave due to

free agency or retirement, the backups could not do the job.

Grier and the coaching staff did not go on the road and actively scout

players. This was left to the area scouts who forwarded the information

to Grier.

I thought Charley Armey was his main scout?

 

[Joker]

NY Times article on Grier taking over for Parcells...very interesting read...

With Parcells Gone, the Patriots' Grier Calls the Shots - New York Times

 

[Hardboiled]

P'ed & J'ed benefits from The Matt Cassel Experiment. Tops recruits will sometimes transfer out because of the number of players ahead of them. P'ed & J'ed can say that even if you don't play much, the NFL is still interested. Go even deeper, if possible.

This is, of course, outside of the constant threat of a recruiting scandal at USC.

 

[upstater1]

P'ed & J'ed benefits from The Matt Cassel Experiment. Tops recruits will sometimes transfer out because of the number of players ahead of them. P'ed & J'ed can say that even if you don't play much, the NFL is still interested. Go even deeper, if possible.

This is, of course, outside of the constant threat of a recruiting scandal at USC.

Some top players transferred this year though even after guys like Cassel had some success.

The great thing about Carroll is that he doesn't care how highly you are ranked coming out of high school. Kids like Vidal Hazelton or some of the backup RBs go to USC as top 5 in the nation, and they end up transferring when kids who are "only" say, top 250, beat them out.

Other coaches, at places Michigan, or Ohio St, or Arkansas, even Florida, have to make promises to top 5 players. Drew Henson, that Houston Nutt controversy at Arkansas, etc. There are so many examples of this. And this year, Terrell Pryor who, while he is an immensely talented kid, was not better than their senior option. Maybe someone can argue it's all about developing players for future years, but coaches owe something to the seniors on the team. I'm pretty certain Pryor was promised that playing time. Carroll never has to get himself into that kind of jam. "You're the top RB in the nation? Well, you're not guaranteed playing time here, because we also recruited the 3rd and 10th best RB in the nation."

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

tickle me pete as I liked to call back in the day, was a horrible coach for the pros, he has done better at usc, because he is a good recruiter, he is a very bad pro coach... and the decline of the pats back then showed it.. Belichick should have been hired in 97 ,but Kraft felt he could not sell the fans on it.. He prob was right I was not sure on Belichick back then, but in 00 I wanted him... he was the right man..

 

[RayClay]

As I remember it, Kraft got wind of Parcells' playing footsie with the Jets in the spring before his last campaign. He confronted Parcells who denied it. Kraft gave Parcells an ultimatum. Extend his contract with the Patriots. Parcells refused, he wanted to be a free agent. Given the fact that Parcells could not commit to the Patriots, Kraft had no choice but to strip his GM rights. You don't give the Jets next coach/GM control of your future draft. That's just dumb. Bobby grier, by the way, chose Terry Glenn over Parcells' pick, which was DE Brackens. Glenn broke the rookie record for receptions and was integral to the Super Bowl run, and he became a Parcells' favorite. under Carroll, Glenn backslid and became the cancer we saw in the early Belichick year. He was soft as a player because of his personal history and needed an authoritarian like Parcells to keep him inline.

I'm not blaming any of this on Bobby Grier. Grier was just a guy who whiffed in the draft, but he had nothing to do with the Parcells fiasco. Obviously, Parcells showed what kind guy he as when jumped from franchise to franchise for many years after that.

I disagree that was the beginning of it. Parcells was hired by Orthwein. Kraft and Parcells were simply two strong personalities who never hit it off.

Kraft disliked Parcells from the start. Orthwein had given Parcells the power (I have an article if you'd like).

Kraft was the owner. If he didn't like his employees attitude and wanted to change the power arrangement, of course he could. He did, Grier came to "buy the groceries" more and more.

Parcells didn't like it, especially since he could see Grier was an incompetent ass kisser.

What came after was inevitable. Parcells didn't want a very good GM (Young NY giants) buying the groceries, why a complete fool like Grier?

Also Parcells has always been an abrasive a-hole, no dispute. Great football man, though.

Your history time line was way off BTW. Also, there were 9 top receivers in that draft 7 picked lower than glenn Glenn (whose mental instability and drug problems caused suspension).

This draft is considered one of the best draft classes ever for the position of wide receiver. Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, and Joe Horn

1996 NFL Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Parcells could have traded around and got a receiver and defensive player. If you want to make the argument that Grier knew more about drafting talent than Parcells, go ahead.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Coaches ... except for Belichick are only as good as their players.

 

[lobster]

Pete Carroll might have someday developed into a fine pro coach, but with a new stadium in planning Bob Kraft probably didn't have the time to wait. Eric Mangini probably had a similar problem at the Jets.

 

[onegameatatime]

I always thought Pete Carroll got a raw deal. He had a bad GM. He followed a legend as HC. He inherited the expectations of a SB team, even though the Pats were lucky to make the SB (Jacksonville did the hard job bumping off Denver in Denver). Also, by his second year, I was convinced that Bledsoe was overrated and a liability.

In 3 years, the Pats were 10-6, 9-7, and 8-8 -- not bad in the modern era. In the first season, the Pats D was outstanding by the playoffs, but the Pats went into the playoffs with key skill players hurt and lost 7-6 to the Steelers (the Steelers TD was the play where Collins pulled up instead of hitting Kordell Stewart who ran about 40 for a TD). In the third year, Vinatieri missed 2 makable game winning FGs that would have made the Pats a 10-6 playoff team (against KC and Buffalo, IIRC).

Not that Carroll was great, and I think he does deserve some blame for the bad drafts even if he is not in charge, but he was certainly no disaster and was an above-average coach.

 

[upstater1]

I disagree that was the beginning of it. Parcells was hired by Orthwein. Kraft and Parcells were simply two strong personalities who never hit it off.

Kraft disliked Parcells from the start. Orthwein had given Parcells the power (I have an article if you'd like).

Kraft was the owner. If he didn't like his employees attitude and wanted to change the power arrangement, of course he could. He did, Grier came to "buy the groceries" more and more.

Parcells didn't like it, especially since he could see Grier was an incompetent ass kisser.

What came after was inevitable. Parcells didn't want a very good GM (Young NY giants) buying the groceries, why a complete fool like Grier?

Also Parcells has always been an abrasive a-hole, no dispute. Great football man, though.

Your history time line was way off BTW. Also, there were 9 top receivers in that draft 7 picked lower than glenn Glenn (whose mental instability and drug problems caused suspension).



1996 NFL Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Parcells could have traded around and got a receiver and defensive player. If you want to make the argument that Grier knew more about drafting talent than Parcells, go ahead.

Seriously, Ray, you are missing the fundamental fact in all of this. Before Kraft gave Grier the keys over Parcells in that draft, Parcells had already contacted the Jets (the summer before). In fact, Parcells' second-to-last year, he had Kraft change his contract so that he could be a free agent on the market. Kraft complied, but he included the now infamous clause that said Parcells could not coach another team unless he had a buyout. Why did Parcells have his contract changed? Because he already had contact with the Jets.

Kraft realized that, and when he later asked Parcells to extend the contract to keep him on in New England in total control, Parcells said no. How/Why could you expect Kraft to allow a guy to buy the groceries when he's clearly on the way out the door? When he's clearly double-dealing? Parcells had total control until that moment when Grier was made the personel guy. Before that, Parcells was in control.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Petey's career went in the toilet on the sands of Hawaii. Edwards had a bright future in front of him only to be robbed of it in a pick-up game. Come to think of it, we all got robbed.

 

[brabirschorr]

IMO those who blame the Carroll years on Bobby Grier don’t know anything about coaching in the NFL. The Pats were a Super Bowl team on the way up and clearly regressed over a three year period not because of personnel moves but because Carroll is simply not an NFL-caliber preparer or game-day coach. Rarely did you see any adjustments to a game plan or strategy once the game began. If something wasn’t working they went in at halftime and came out and tried more of the same. Those three years were some of the most frustrating I’ve had in nearly 40 years as a Pats fan because the team had so much untapped potential.

Carroll’s a nice guy and great college recruiter & coach. I’m glad he’s been successful at USC but coaching is everything in the NFL and, as Nick Saban can attest, it’s totally different from college. Go back and watch the Pats/Jets tapes from the late '90s when the Jets’ Belichick-led defense consistently out-classed Bledsoe and the Pats and you’ll know why I was the happiest guy in New England when BB was hired - not because I foresaw the incredible success the Pats would have over the next few years but because I knew we would be more prepared, better coached during games, and most importantly wouldn’t have to face BB on the other side any more.