Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary

[Rob0729]

I have always said that this defense is predicated on the pass rush (then again most are). It has been since Belichick was a DC for the Giants. All you have to do is look at 2005. The defense was pretty average at best until they decided to pressure the QB midway through the KC game in week 10. After that, the Pats were the most dominant defense during the final six weeks of the season.

 

[JSn]

I have always said that this defense is predicated on the pass rush (then again most are). It has been since Belichick was a DC for the Giants. All you have to do is look at 2005. The defense was pretty average at best until they decided to pressure the QB midway through the KC game in week 10. After that, the Pats were the most dominant defense during the final six weeks of the season.

So that begs he question, can this group of guys do that again?

 

[Rob0729]

So that begs he question, can this group of guys do that again?

The question is whether if it is scheme vs. talent. In 2005, it was talent early with Bruschi being out and scheme most of the season. I don't know if it is scheme or lack of rushing talent although I do think that Pees is not being as agressive as he should be with the rush.

 

[condon84]

Re: Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary.

No, they have not "struggled since we have not been allowed to manhandle receivers down the field." Even a cursory look at the numbers shows, for example, a 66.1 passer rating for opponents in 2006.

The guy's argument is lousy because it failed to take into account the transitional nature of the down seasons. Note the 3 worst seasons under Belichick were the first season of his tenure, the first season after Law left, and this first season post-Samuel. 2006 was actually the second best season of Belichick's tenure.



As to your assertion, is your argument really that they've drafted badly at the db slot?

Wilson
Sanders
Hobbs
Samuel
Meriweather
Wheatley

That author of that article said that the Pats drafting of DBs since the drafting of Wilfork has been awful. It's hard to argue against. Look at the DBs he has listed. Gus Scott was a third rounder and he was out of football in two years. Think about if he panned out, we wouldn't have to use a first rounder last year on Merriweather and be able to shore up another spot in our roster. Same thing with Dexter Reid, although he was a fourth rounder, we should get a solid contributor in that round. If not in regular defenses but in sub packages and in special teams. The guy is out of football already.

The coaches love James Sanders because he knows where to go, but I see him everyweek missing tackles because of horrible angles or misjudging passes. Athletically, the guy just can't keep up. It's great that he works hard, but he's another JAG IMO.

Again, I am not saying our FO is a bunch of jackoffs because I think they are the best in the league. I just agree that they have missed their mark in drafting DBs the past couple of years and it is hurting us right now.

 

[Richter]

The question is whether if it is scheme vs. talent. In 2005, it was talent early with Bruschi being out and scheme most of the season. I don't know if it is scheme or lack of rushing talent although I do think that Pees is not being as agressive as he should be with the rush.

The problem is pretty plain to me, Vrabel has lost a step. He's never been the fastest guy, but he always had a tremendous closing burst when he got around the edge. That burst looks to be gone this year. He really only gets sacks with one move, a sort of modified bull rush where he pushes into the OT, releases and then uses a swim or rip to go outside or inside, depending on which way the QB is positioned. This year, I've noticed he'll get into the tackle's body, then struggle to disengage, or lack the burst to push past quickly and pressure the QB. The only sacks and pressures he's seemed to ring up have been when he's gotten a totally clean release on the edge and come unblocked by the LT, which is rare, or when the scheme put an extra rusher on the same side and the LT fails to get back into his stance and slide out into protection as quickly because he's not sure who to block. Thomas has been okay, but I've never seen him as a pure rusher anyway. The front 3 are just never going to be guys who ring up large numbers of sacks, but they've gotten a little better at getting pressure lately, Seymour in particular. Vrabel is 33, age is probably starting to be a factor, and he needs to have a replacement groomed so he can be rotated out more often soon. Hopefully Crable is ready to come in next year, and the Pats pick up another stud OLB to prepare for when Vrabel and Thomas depart.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary.

That author of that article said that the Pats drafting of DBs since the drafting of Wilfork has been awful. It's hard to argue against. Look at the DBs he has listed. Gus Scott was a third rounder and he was out of football in two years. Think about if he panned out, we wouldn't have to use a first rounder last year on Merriweather and be able to shore up another spot in our roster. Same thing with Dexter Reid, although he was a fourth rounder, we should get a solid contributor in that round. If not in regular defenses but in sub packages and in special teams. The guy is out of football already.

The coaches love James Sanders because he knows where to go, but I see him everyweek missing tackles because of horrible angles or misjudging passes. Athletically, the guy just can't keep up. It's great that he works hard, but he's another JAG IMO.

Again, I am not saying our FO is a bunch of jackoffs because I think they are the best in the league. I just agree that they have missed their mark in drafting DBs the past couple of years and it is hurting us right now.

It's not hard to argue against, because it's an idiotic assertion on the part of the author. First of all, Reid and Scott (along with Christian Morton in round 7) were taken in the same draft as Wilfork, so it's clearly an attempt to cherry pick, since the team drafted Wilson and Samuel the season before. Secondly, Hobbs was picked the next year, 2005, along with Sanders. In 2006, the only DB drafted was Willie Andrews, in the 7th round. In 2007, Meriweather and Richardson (6th round) were drafted, and in 2008, the team drafted Wheatley and Wilhite.

So, even cherry picking the Wilfork draft, you get:

Hobbs
Sanders
Meriweather
Wheatley
Richardson
Wilhite

as players who've been 'hits' to one extent or another, and

Scott
Reid
Morton
Andrews

who were drafted but aren't on the team. As a matter of fact, Andrews had made the team and played for 2 seasons on special teams before he got stupid and got in trouble with drug charges.

The guy's argument was crap.

 

[Gicksauce]

Looks pretty similar to a certain someone's thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/183530-cornerbacks.html

Very suspicious

 

[smg93]

CHFF's take on our secondary's "Passer Rating"

Interesting article from CHFF on our secondary:

WEEI 850AM Sports Radio - Bad Moves By Patriots Have Led To A Bad Secondary

"If the Patriots pass defense was a steamship, it’d be the Titanic.

If it was an airship, it’d be the Hindenburg.

And if it was a starship, it’d be the Jefferson – just about the time Grace Slick and company recorded “We Built This City” and sent American pop culture spiraling down the toilet.

The Patriots pass defense is a disaster, in other words. And it’s a disaster best defined by one number. That number is 92.9.

Sound familiar, Patriots fans? It might. After all, 92.9 is Tom Brady’s career passer rating, the fourth best mark in NFL history.

But 92.9 is also New England’s defensive passer rating this year – that is, it’s how the Patriots have performed if you apply the formula for passer rating to their defense."

 

[JSn]

Re: CHFF's take on our secondary's "Passer Rating"

Been there, done that...

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...really-feel-kerry-weei-article-secondary.html

 

[billdog3484]

Re: CHFF's take on our secondary's "Passer Rating"

its definitely a concern. ive thought for a few years our pass rush was less than stellar, and this year is no exception. hopefully we can acquire a pass rusher this year and take at least a litttle bit of pressure on our secondary

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: CHFF's take on our secondary's "Passer Rating"

its definitely a concern. ive thought for a few years our pass rush was less than stellar, and this year is no exception. hopefully we can acquire a pass rusher this year and take at least a litttle bit of pressure on our secondary

Last year, they were second in the NFL in sacks. They were 5th in the league the year before that. I'm not sure how that's less than stellar.....

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: CHFF's take on our secondary's "Passer Rating"

Last year, they were second in the NFL in sacks. They were 5th in the league the year before that. I'm not sure how that's less than stellar.....

Last year has nothing to do with this year. Let's live in the present. The Pats have been unable to get off the field on 3rd downs. It's not surprise that the stats show they give up alot in the passing game. Previously the Pats were able to play 'bend and don't break' defense. Now it's more like, bend and then break.

 

[maverick4]

It's a remarkable stat.

Really creates some concern over the pass rush or our coverage. Possibly the play calling as well.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Anyway, Their numbers are similar in the first three years, and this is Hobbs fourth year. I think it's too early to call him a bust, or the guys they drafted this year for that matter. Samuel wasnt an overnight sensation.

GO Ellis :rocker:

Let's not forget that Samuel also didn't bring the awesome on kick returns, either.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Looks pretty similar to a certain someone's thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/183530-cornerbacks.html

Very suspicious

Reason enough to dismiss it as fantasy driven drivel, I'd say.

The rating is reflective of the entire defense and the scheme performance (and to some extent the inability of the offense to capitalize on scoring opportunities consistently) as much as a particular position or the drafting thereof. And injuries to key personnel have to be taken into account. The players we were missing in the down (as in they only went to the playoffs in 3 consecutive seasons with a 5-3 record...) years weren't corners, they were a savvy aging safety and a gimpy DE and couple of playmaking OLB's unavailable due to injury or a receiving a ridiculous offer in thier FA dotage...

Asante played a pretty limited roll in securing the 2 rings he possesses. He was a spot nickle back as a rookie in 2003 and didn't replace Law due to injury until week 9 of the 2004 season. In 2005 he wasn't tradeable BECAUSE HE SUCKED IN RODNEY'S ABSENCE as did the front seven also missing two starting ILB's (due to stroke and eve of the season unanticipated retirement). He didn't even win the starting LCB job out of camp in 2006, the year we had no WR's, only took over when Hobbs injured his wrist. In late 2006 he shot up the buzz charts based on 10 picks (6 of which came in 2 games we won facing up against miserable offenses courtesy of Daunte Culpepper and the immortal Rex Grossman...). But it certainly didn't translate into much in the AFCC (again in Harrison's absence). In 2007 he didn't do much to impact a season for the ages largely driven by prolific offense save giving up a TD and missing a pick and perhaps an providing an assist to Harrison that could have resulted in a potential game ending fumble - any of which plays had he made could have put him in the running for SB MVP... And what underscores that is he hasn't impacted the Eagles to the tune of $9M per either. Just like Champ Bailey and Asomouga aren't impacting their respective teams...

This front office must really have their heads up their asses when in the absence of a HOF QB led offense (not to mention while relying on an UDFA 4th string RB and drafting near the bottom of every round for most of BB's tenure) for the first time in several seasons they got off to a 3-0 start and were poised to survive the absence of Rodney Harrison for once - until AD went down and then Ty Warren missed a game... Makes you wonder how they ever managed to go 44-14 between when they started sucking at the draft in 2005 and now...

The Patriots haven't had a shutdown corner in the backfield since Ty Law went down in week 8 of 2004 - and we won that year without a remotely elite CB in the mix. What we did have was a core of elite veteran LB's and a SS who in conjunction with a top tier DL could pressure a QB into puking away any shot at a last second comeback...

Championships are won and lost in the trenches. So that's where you invest because you can win plugging all manner of weapons around those players if you have them... Just ask the Giants and the Titans. Every team has it's weakness, the formula is to do things that insure your opponent can't exploit it. Belichick has always attempted to do that. I fact 2007 was a perfect case in point when he decided given what was available to him draft wise the best defense was a prolific offense and he traded a 2nd, 4th and 5th to secure that. Almost worked too... No team in the salary cap age will ever have it all...

 

[Phlash]

can u tell me who tennessee's starting corners are w/o looking?

now can u tell me who is on their d-line?

the titans have the best defense w/ no name cb's, the key is pressure, and its pressure up front...

the front 7 need more work, the cb's are fine

Courtland Finnegan and Nick Harper are damn good players. ESPECIALLY Courtland Finnegan.

 

[condon84]

Re: Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary.

It's not hard to argue against, because it's an idiotic assertion on the part of the author. First of all, Reid and Scott (along with Christian Morton in round 7) were taken in the same draft as Wilfork, so it's clearly an attempt to cherry pick, since the team drafted Wilson and Samuel the season before. Secondly, Hobbs was picked the next year, 2005, along with Sanders. In 2006, the only DB drafted was Willie Andrews, in the 7th round. In 2007, Meriweather and Richardson (6th round) were drafted, and in 2008, the team drafted Wheatley and Wilhite.

So, even cherry picking the Wilfork draft, you get:

Hobbs
Sanders
Meriweather
Wheatley
Richardson
Wilhite

as players who've been 'hits' to one extent or another, and

Scott
Reid
Morton
Andrews

who were drafted but aren't on the team. As a matter of fact, Andrews had made the team and played for 2 seasons on special teams before he got stupid and got in trouble with drug charges.

The guy's argument was crap.

Because of the way we've been drafting DBs the past couple of years, our starting CBs this week will be Hobbs, Delta O Neal, and Jason Webster as the nickleback. To start the season, the starters were Hobbs, Lewis Sanders, and Delta as the nickle back. Keep in mind that Delta was picked up after the Bengals had cut him only a couple of weeks before the season started and now he is the starter. I think that speaks for itself.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Reason enough to dismiss it as fantasy driven drivel, I'd say.

The rating is reflective of the entire defense and the scheme performance (and to some extent the inability of the offense to capitalize on scoring opportunities consistently) as much as a particular position or the drafting thereof. And injuries to key personnel have to be taken into account. The players we were missing in the down (as in they only went to the playoffs in 3 consecutive seasons with a 5-3 record...) years weren't corners, they were a savvy aging safety and a gimpy DE and couple of playmaking OLB's unavailable due to injury or a receiving a ridiculous offer in thier FA dotage...

Asante played a pretty limited roll in securing the 2 rings he possesses. He was a spot nickle back as a rookie in 2003 and didn't replace Law due to injury until week 9 of the 2004 season. In 2005 he wasn't tradeable BECAUSE HE SUCKED IN RODNEY'S ABSENCE as did the front seven also missing two starting ILB's (due to stroke and eve of the season unanticipated retirement). He didn't even win the starting LCB job out of camp in 2006, the year we had no WR's, only took over when Hobbs injured his wrist. In late 2006 he shot up the buzz charts based on 10 picks (6 of which came in 2 games we won facing up against miserable offenses courtesy of Daunte Culpepper and the immortal Rex Grossman...). But it certainly didn't translate into much in the AFCC (again in Harrison's absence). In 2007 he didn't do much to impact a season for the ages largely driven by prolific offense save giving up a TD and missing a pick and perhaps an providing an assist to Harrison that could have resulted in a potential game ending fumble - any of which plays had he made could have put him in the running for SB MVP... And what underscores that is he hasn't impacted the Eagles to the tune of $9M per either. Just like Champ Bailey and Asomouga aren't impacting their respective teams...

This front office must really have their heads up their asses when in the absence of a HOF QB led offense (not to mention while relying on an UDFA 4th string RB and drafting near the bottom of every round for most of BB's tenure) for the first time in several seasons they got off to a 3-0 start and were poised to survive the absence of Rodney Harrison for once - until AD went down and then Ty Warren missed a game... Makes you wonder how they ever managed to go 44-14 between when they started sucking at the draft in 2005 and now...

The Patriots haven't had a shutdown corner in the backfield since Ty Law went down in week 8 of 2004 - and we won that year without a remotely elite CB in the mix. What we did have was a core of elite veteran LB's and a SS who in conjunction with a top tier DL could pressure a QB into puking away any shot at a last second comeback...

Championships are won and lost in the trenches. So that's where you invest because you can win plugging all manner of weapons around those players if you have them... Just ask the Giants and the Titans. Every team has it's weakness, the formula is to do things that insure your opponent can't exploit it. Belichick has always attempted to do that. I fact 2007 was a perfect case in point when he decided given what was available to him draft wise the best defense was a prolific offense and he traded a 2nd, 4th and 5th to secure that. Almost worked too... No team in the salary cap age will ever have it all...

For those who might have missed this post. Im bumping it, because everyone should read this. Good post MO.

 

[condon84]

THis needs to be bumped.

THis game showed how awful our secondary has been. A good amount of 3rd and longs completed.

Pass rush sucked, but it's not like Burger was standing back there all day long. He had lots of quick drops and pass after we pressured him a couple of times. Just horrible.

Delta O'Neil? What is he doing in our defense?

Hobbs also gets beat. The guy is a great KO returner, but an average at best CB.

James Sanders? When was the last time he made a play? All I see is lots of bad angles from him.

Merriweather has the physical tools and has made some plays. But he seems to be out of position in some plays and looks to be a step behind, but he's clearly our best player back there.

Our secondary is a sad state and needs some major retooling.

 

[Mack Herron]

THis needs to be bumped.

THis game showed how awful our secondary has been. A good amount of 3rd and longs completed.

Pass rush sucked, but it's not like Burger was standing back there all day long. He had lots of quick drops and pass after we pressured him a couple of times. Just horrible.

Delta O'Neil? What is he doing in our defense?

Hobbs also gets beat. The guy is a great KO returner, but an average at best CB.

James Sanders? When was the last time he made a play? All I see is lots of bad angles from him.

Merriweather has the physical tools and has made some plays. But he seems to be out of position in some plays and looks to be a step behind, but he's clearly our best player back there.

Our secondary is a sad state and needs some major retooling.

Couldn't agree more. I will be very surprised if either O'Neal or Sanders is starting next year. Neither can cover, and Hobbs needs to learn to find the ball on long routes with his back to the ball. Merriweather is the only playmaker in the secondary. That said, when they blitzed yesterday it appeared to cover a lot of problems, and I do not understand why they do not blitz more because keeping these guys in "coverage" is not working.