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Why would anybody want Belichick fired in favor of BOB?


We disagree. I think 6 Lombardi’s and a 20 year dynasty give Belichick all the cache he needs until he decides to hang them up, which imo will be after the 2024 season. Go look at any dynasty and what happened to them after they ended, almost all go into long droughts. I think his goal is to get them back to regular contention before retiring, and I think he deserves the latitude to do that. And while plenty of people here are gung ho to fire him, not one has a serious replacement for him.
People are going want to fire belichick because they long to see successful people fail so they can feel more content with their miserable lives.
Last night I watched the classic movie 12 Angry Men. It was like reading this board only on that movie the ignorant gained insight.
 
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I know there was the rumors they were pissed off Stidham went to a wedding during OTA's or something but there had to have been some sort of agreement with Bill and Cam when he signed. I assume Cam signed for so cheap because Bill basically told him if he's healthy he's the starter because I cannot for the life of me fathom why else Cam would have been playing down the stretch that season when it was clear he was done. I mean at least we could have gotten a look at Stidham to see if he was with keeping as a backup.
I think the most reasonable answer is that Legarm Newton acted mature and professional and earned respect and opportunity while Stidham acted like an immature child and never gained any confidence or trust.
 
Not necessary Rob since he clarified what he said but I have seen some people say 2020 shouldn't count against Bill as part of the struggles since Brady left.
Everything counts.
But if your expectation was that he underperformed as a coach or GM given the circumstances he had to work with you shouldn’t discuss football.
 
Actually, he is not.

Playoff victories without Tom Brady

Jeff Fisher.........5
Bill Belichick ...1

Regular season record without Tom Brady

Jeff Fisher .......173-165 (.512)
Bill Belichick......76-87 (.466)
Dear Sir, I am compelled to thrown down my glove and challenge you to a duel. Comparing Belicik to Fisher is an insult that cannot go un-challenged :)
 
No rational fan should want Bob as HC. I didn't even want him as OC but last year made us all desperate for average coaching.
He has the highest win/loss percentage and most playoff victories in Texan's history. What he did to revive Penn State after the worst scandal in the college's history was nothing short of amazing. He worked with Saban in Alabama... he's the front runner for the job IMO and we should want him.

I think coaches can improve the way young players can improve... plus he's a Boston guy, he'll have loyalties that run deeper than most coaches. I just want them to retain Groh as the GM and keep BB around as a consultant. I don't want BB fired, I want a nice smooth transition.
 
So if Belichick wants to coach another ten years and he never gets more than 9-10 wins and a lot of eight win seasons and never wins another playoff game, we just have to just endure that because Belichick earned it. What if it is ten years of 5-6 wins a season? If Brady didn’t opt out of his contract, do you think Belichick would have kept re-signing Brady until he decided to retire even if Brady wanted to play to 50? By your logic, the Patriots should have also kept Brady on the roster even if he wanted to play until 60.

I am sorry, but the NFL is a results oriented league. I don’t think the fans and Kraft have to endure year after year of a crap product because Belichick is chasing a record. If Belichick was Kraft, he would have let himself go after what happened last season.

And based on the last two off seasons, I think Belichick’s only goal is to get the record. He has done next to nothing in free agency the last two years, he installed a coaching staff that he thought would make his life easier even though it was not in the best interest of the team or his second year QB, and he has pared down his work effort over the last few years.
I am probably a weirdo, but I have really enjoyed the last three seasons of NEP football. I enjoy seeing the team building and the different approaches that BB has tried. I don't need my favorite football team to win a SB, Hunt trophy or a playoff game to enjoy the season. In some ways it is refreshing to not have the GOAT QB and be expected to win a SB every year. Like I said, I'm kinda a weirdo for feeling this way, but it is what it is. Just a football team that I fell in love with in 1975 and I will always find ways to enjoy their season.
 
My fear is that we have become the 1980s Steelers. There are a lot of parallels there. They were the dominant team of the 1970s and when they lost their talent from that era, their HOF head coach was good enough to never allow the Steelers to really suck but they were just an average team that sometimes made the playoffs and were rarely successful when they did.

We are in year three of a post Brady rebuild (I am giving Belichick a mulligan on the Newton year) and the Pats look to be no closer to being a contender than they did at the start of the rebuild. In fact, they look to potentially be farther away. We have not seen any signs of this team getting better. Just treading water. They could surprise this year, but I don't think you want to bet on it.

I think as long as the Krafts own the team and are invested, I doubt the Pats will ever become a disaster. Teams that have poor organizational structures are usually teams with meddlesome owners (Dallas, Washington) or teams where the owners don't really give a crap (Jacksonville, Cleveland).

And right now, I would rather be the Rams than the 202x Patriots. Hell, I would rather the Pats totally suck for a year or two and allow them to draft at least one or two franchise players than what they have been post Brady.
Why would you rather be the Rams? This team has better talent and a better coaching staff than the Rams. Also, sucking in the NFL doesn't seem to lead to anything.
 
We disagree. I think 6 Lombardi’s and a 20 year dynasty give Belichick all the cache he needs until he decides to hang them up, which imo will be after the 2024 season. Go look at any dynasty and what happened to them after they ended, almost all go into long droughts. I think his goal is to get them back to regular contention before retiring, and I think he deserves the latitude to do that. And while plenty of people here are gung ho to fire him, not one has a serious replacement for him.

And why wasn't brady afforded that same leeway after a 20 year dynasty and 6 Lombardis? Bill offered him the insulting deal after a super-bowl winning year when he came back for a 2 year deal.

we all praise Bill's approach of "its about what you can do for me now not your past" to defend letting go of Brady and other players. Yet when it comes to bill its "well the last 20 years"

should it not also apply?
 
And why wasn't brady afforded that same leeway after a 20 year dynasty and 6 Lombardis? Bill offered him the insulting deal after a super-bowl winning year when he came back for a 2 year deal.

we all praise Bill's approach of "its about what you can do for me now not your past" to defend letting go of Brady and other players. Yet when it comes to bill its "well the last 20 years"

should it not also apply?
I disagreed with not doing what he could have to keep Brady and would have ridden that until the wheels came off. At the same time, it’s not like he did it when Brady was 38. And Brady lasted just three more seasons and solidified his legacy by doing what he did in Tampa.

No point in being angry about it since it’s essentially a frustrating footnote to an otherwise incredible career. If Brady went on to play 5-10 more years and kept crushing it, I’d probably be more irritated.
 
I would love to see Bill load up on offense like he did in 2007. give Mac 1 year with high end offensive talent. free agency and the draft. WR and OT. they will have a nice middle of the roster team. time to load up on the top end of the roster.
 
I am probably a weirdo, but I have really enjoyed the last three seasons of NEP football. I enjoy seeing the team building and the different approaches that BB has tried. I don't need my favorite football team to win a SB, Hunt trophy or a playoff game to enjoy the season. In some ways it is refreshing to not have the GOAT QB and be expected to win a SB every year. Like I said, I'm kinda a weirdo for feeling this way, but it is what it is. Just a football team that I fell in love with in 1975 and I will always find ways to enjoy their season.

Last year was building? Belichick threw away last year He did what every bad team does with young QBs. He changed the offensive system. Didn‘t give him weapons. He hung his young QB out to dry multiple times in the season. Last year was a disaster on offense that would have gotten any other coach in the league fired.

But the problem is we are “building“ the same way Belichick always has. Focus on building a strong defense and a running game and not putting the investment in passing talent and let the QB elevate the talent around him. Except it is Mac Jones and not Brady. This team is designed the same way the Pats were designing teams ten years ago. He has added a little speed in some areas, but I don’t think Belichick has changed his team building philosophy at all.

Again, I have always been a “In Bill We Trust” guy, but Bill seems to be unwilling to adapt to the league like he has done in the past. And if he is content in continuing building middle of the pack teams, it is time to move on.

If he exceeds expectations this year and the Pats make the playoffs and win a playoff game or two, then I will change my mind. If this Pats miss the playoffs again this year, it is clear they are not building anything and it is time to move on when they have cap capital to actually rebuild.

I don’t need AFCCG appearances or Super Bowls, but I do want to see progress. Last year the Pats regressed. If they miss the playoffs again this year, they are just treading water in mediocrity.
 
And why wasn't brady afforded that same leeway after a 20 year dynasty and 6 Lombardis? Bill offered him the insulting deal after a super-bowl winning year when he came back for a 2 year deal.

we all praise Bill's approach of "its about what you can do for me now not your past" to defend letting go of Brady and other players. Yet when it comes to bill its "well the last 20 years"

should it not also apply?
He gave him an 8 million dollar raise and a 2 year 70 mill extension. Brady asked that the years be voidable and that the franchise tag be waived, while he was allowing Miami to tamper during the investigation.
Brady had 2 years and 62 mill left in a contract he chose to void rather than restructure to ease the cap hit.
Giving an $8 million dollar raise and 30 mill and 32 mill extension years is not insulting to a guy who turned around and took 2/50.
Ultimately Brady left to make less.
 
I would love to see Bill load up on offense like he did in 2007. give Mac 1 year with high end offensive talent. free agency and the draft. WR and OT. they will have a nice middle of the roster team. time to load up on the top end of the roster.

Well that's what he should do with a QB on a rookie contract. And what most other teams do. Instead he's just filling the roster with the same middle of the road players.

I mean look at what the teams did for Hurts, tua, Allen the list goes on. And it all helped those young guys.

Bill gave Mac a DC in Patricia which sey everyone back. And now this year Juju as his best receiver. We are going to be woefully outmatched if our defense can't stop the other team or our run game can't get going.

We should be a more competent offense with BOB running the show. But we saw in the 2021 playoffs and season the limits this type of style of play has.
 
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And why wasn't brady afforded that same leeway after a 20 year dynasty and 6 Lombardis? Bill offered him the insulting deal after a super-bowl winning year when he came back for a 2 year deal.

we all praise Bill's approach of "its about what you can do for me now not your past" to defend letting go of Brady and other players. Yet when it comes to bill its "well the last 20 years"

should it not also apply?
Brady was given this leeway, he asked for his free agency and got it. Ultimately he was the one who chose to leave and was correct to do so. It was the best move for both player and team.

Would you rather we were like the Lions who held Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson hostage until they retired way too early and preventing them from winning a ring?

The Patriots weren’t going to win a ring after 2018 unless they took a down year like they did in 2020. Brady would lose one of the final years of his career on a dumpster fire while they reset their cap. That would be unfair to him after all his years of service.
 
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Why would you rather be the Rams? This team has better talent and a better coaching staff than the Rams. Also, sucking in the NFL doesn't seem to lead to anything.

Than the Patriots of the 2020s thus far? Absolutely. One Super Bowl win trumps no playoff wins.

And many teams how parlayed sucking into championships. The odds are better that teams will suck for a long time. But you look at the Bills and Bengals and they built their current team on his draft picks. A smart team can parlay a year or two of sucking into a playoff contender.
 
I am probably a weirdo, but I have really enjoyed the last three seasons of NEP football. I enjoy seeing the team building and the different approaches that BB has tried. I don't need my favorite football team to win a SB, Hunt trophy or a playoff game to enjoy the season. In some ways it is refreshing to not have the GOAT QB and be expected to win a SB every year. Like I said, I'm kinda a weirdo for feeling this way, but it is what it is. Just a football team that I fell in love with in 1975 and I will always find ways to enjoy their season.
That's a thoughtful, self-aware post. You always want to win, but were my 30+ years of fanhood pre-Brady/Belichick a waste? No, all the seasons that were in the muddled middle, even the "collapse" seasons, had meaning of their own.

That said, a few things...

- I think we always and habitually overvalue offense over defense, and passing over everything else. And I think in the current world of the NFL, every fan can parrot his sports radio faves and say "it's a passing league," and that covers the why of it. I don't think BB buys it, which is staggering, given that he had a 2-decade ride along with the GOAT. But that said, maybe it proves something if he diminishes the primacy of the position.
- I think that BB is always after whatever contrarian big game he can land. He likes being ready for, and making hay from, secular trends. You can see that from the '21 spending spree. I think it was successful enough... he bought much of the roster for a couple to a few years on deflated cap dollars. But the main thing is, it shows he likes thinking of a way that thinking gives him an edge, especially a way nobody else is going after
- I think this is part of his view of the post-Brady Pats and the post-Brady league. Think of the caponomics if "okay" is good enough in the passing game, when you can devote resources to the defense, the o-line, and the running game. I think he knew he had to feed Brady receivers for as long as he has a Brady, and if a Mac Jones becomes a Brady he'll do it again. But while he's NOT Brady, BB is going to build defense and try to come up with some way for the budget RB stable to excel.
- This also comports with observations of one of the big collapses last year... trying to install an outside zone blocking scheme. He tried to make a radical change that I think was meant to unlock explosive plays at the RB position.
- Side-track: also consider the caponomics of running back by committee. The whole league discovered that 3 RBs gaining 800, 700, and 500 yards respectively, plus TDs and receiving numbers to match, was just as good as one bell cow with a 2000 yard season. Fantasy football guys can laugh and say we got nothin'. Real life is that we are usually top third of the league in running numbers. We didn't invent RBBC, but I think BB was a fan and we were probably influential in it, given that the conventional wisdom in the 90s was that you needed "triplets," a star QB, RB, and WR, to be able to succeed at the SB level.
- Back to 2022: Unfortunately he had a QB coach coaching the O-line (even worse comedown because he was doing it in the wake of Scar,) and he had a DC playing OC. (You tell me wtf that was.)
- But the main thing is... doesn't the change to blocking scheme also look like a move you make if you are moving some emphasis to the run game, from the passing game? Or one of you Xs and Os guys check me on this... what could the OZB (outside zone blocking, not ounce blitz) scheme do for a passing game?

QB thoughts.
This is Mac's low-key hot-seat year. Next year is the holy-crap, do-we-have-to-admit-failure? year. He remains cheap for now. Does he return to a trajectory we'd expect given his rookie numbers? If so, all the doom-and-gloom bets are off. I'm enough of an optimist to see the Patriots in the playoff hunt come December. But I would also not be surprised if Jones is just broken forever. Not everybody has the temperament we've gotten used to at the QB position. Mac's been undercut by coaching in NE. No idea how he'll process that.

I don't think we really know what we've got with him. You want the game to slow down for him... hell, I don't know how that was going to happen given last year's chaos. Honestly. Brady never had to face that much internal ineptitude. I somehow think Brady woulda coulda done more with that situation, but he's the GOAT. We're not hitting that lottery again. And don't forget, he left specifically because he was sick of the "situation" in NE, that is, not enough to buy him the primo targets. He had to go somewhere stocked to make his later years worth it. And good for him - his interests diverged from ours. He got what he needed for his final chapter, an optimal shot at "the next one."

Main takeaway, I think the merry-go-round of super-overvalued passing emphasis appears to be in BB's sights. You have to pay the QB an inordinate amount if he's any good. Then you have to pay WRs an inordinate amount. You also have to put up with the nonsense from the WRs who are head cases, sorry, redundant phrase, they're all head cases. I mean, Terry Glenn, she was pretty good. Man. BB was even ahead of the curve with the whole pronouns thing, but I'm pretty sure that's something people are supposed to apply to themselves...

I think he'll roll with whatever results he does or does not get, but BB thinks a team starting from scratch is best served going defense first, with a fair passing game (it can't actively stink,) and a good running game, but a great running game through a standout individual back is a luxury we can't sustain.

So anyway, yeah, I always find stuff to get interested in too... would love to see progress this year, but I'm with you. Being a fan in bad years makes the good years better. The guys who jumped on the bandwagon in 01 and jumped off around 06, and the ones who jumped off and bought Tampa gear, don't know what they're missing.

They coulda been Patriots fans... they weren't, not really. They were fan-adjacent :D
 
That's a thoughtful, self-aware post. You always want to win, but were my 30+ years of fanhood pre-Brady/Belichick a waste? No, all the seasons that were in the muddled middle, even the "collapse" seasons, had meaning of their own.

That said, a few things...

- I think we always and habitually overvalue offense over defense, and passing over everything else. And I think in the current world of the NFL, every fan can parrot his sports radio faves and say "it's a passing league," and that covers the why of it. I don't think BB buys it, which is staggering, given that he had a 2-decade ride along with the GOAT. But that said, maybe it proves something if he diminishes the primacy of the position.
- I think that BB is always after whatever contrarian big game he can land. He likes being ready for, and making hay from, secular trends. You can see that from the '21 spending spree. I think it was successful enough... he bought much of the roster for a couple to a few years on deflated cap dollars. But the main thing is, it shows he likes thinking of a way that thinking gives him an edge, especially a way nobody else is going after
- I think this is part of his view of the post-Brady Pats and the post-Brady league. Think of the caponomics if "okay" is good enough in the passing game, when you can devote resources to the defense, the o-line, and the running game. I think he knew he had to feed Brady receivers for as long as he has a Brady, and if a Mac Jones becomes a Brady he'll do it again. But while he's NOT Brady, BB is going to build defense and try to come up with some way for the budget RB stable to excel.
- This also comports with observations of one of the big collapses last year... trying to install an outside zone blocking scheme. He tried to make a radical change that I think was meant to unlock explosive plays at the RB position.
- Side-track: also consider the caponomics of running back by committee. The whole league discovered that 3 RBs gaining 800, 700, and 500 yards respectively, plus TDs and receiving numbers to match, was just as good as one bell cow with a 2000 yard season. Fantasy football guys can laugh and say we got nothin'. Real life is that we are usually top third of the league in running numbers. We didn't invent RBBC, but I think BB was a fan and we were probably influential in it, given that the conventional wisdom in the 90s was that you needed "triplets," a star QB, RB, and WR, to be able to succeed at the SB level.
- Back to 2022: Unfortunately he had a QB coach coaching the O-line (even worse comedown because he was doing it in the wake of Scar,) and he had a DC playing OC. (You tell me wtf that was.)
- But the main thing is... doesn't the change to blocking scheme also look like a move you make if you are moving some emphasis to the run game, from the passing game? Or one of you Xs and Os guys check me on this... what could the OZB (outside zone blocking, not ounce blitz) scheme do for a passing game?

QB thoughts.
This is Mac's low-key hot-seat year. Next year is the holy-crap, do-we-have-to-admit-failure? year. He remains cheap for now. Does he return to a trajectory we'd expect given his rookie numbers? If so, all the doom-and-gloom bets are off. I'm enough of an optimist to see the Patriots in the playoff hunt come December. But I would also not be surprised if Jones is just broken forever. Not everybody has the temperament we've gotten used to at the QB position. Mac's been undercut by coaching in NE. No idea how he'll process that.

I don't think we really know what we've got with him. You want the game to slow down for him... hell, I don't know how that was going to happen given last year's chaos. Honestly. Brady never had to face that much internal ineptitude. I somehow think Brady woulda coulda done more with that situation, but he's the GOAT. We're not hitting that lottery again. And don't forget, he left specifically because he was sick of the "situation" in NE, that is, not enough to buy him the primo targets. He had to go somewhere stocked to make his later years worth it. And good for him - his interests diverged from ours. He got what he needed for his final chapter, an optimal shot at "the next one."

Main takeaway, I think the merry-go-round of super-overvalued passing emphasis appears to be in BB's sights. You have to pay the QB an inordinate amount if he's any good. Then you have to pay WRs an inordinate amount. You also have to put up with the nonsense from the WRs who are head cases, sorry, redundant phrase, they're all head cases. I mean, Terry Glenn, she was pretty good. Man. BB was even ahead of the curve with the whole pronouns thing, but I'm pretty sure that's something people are supposed to apply to themselves...

I think he'll roll with whatever results he does or does not get, but BB thinks a team starting from scratch is best served going defense first, with a fair passing game (it can't actively stink,) and a good running game, but a great running game through a standout individual back is a luxury we can't sustain.

So anyway, yeah, I always find stuff to get interested in too... would love to see progress this year, but I'm with you. Being a fan in bad years makes the good years better. The guys who jumped on the bandwagon in 01 and jumped off around 06, and the ones who jumped off and bought Tampa gear, don't know what they're missing.

They coulda been Patriots fans... they weren't, not really. They were fan-adjacent :D
I like that you enjoy analyzing the team building aspects that BB seems to be employing. I gather a lot of those types of opinions about this team through all the fans on this board and then latch on to the info that seems most logical and intelligent to me. The people on this board are my cheat sheet. I really don't have the desire/time to do it myself and I enjoy the extreme differences each fan expresses when analyzing the Patriots (although some posters have definitely frustrated me over the years). I guess my point is (if there is one), I don't feel comfortable determining other people's fandom and I don't really care as long as people are being somewhat respectful to each other when expressing their fandom. It is just a football team that we follow as a form of entertainment and there is very little effect it should have on our day-to-day lives (excluding the game that shall not be named..lol...that still bugs me). Can't wait for TC to start.
 
Last year was building? Belichick threw away last year He did what every bad team does with young QBs. He changed the offensive system. Didn‘t give him weapons. He hung his young QB out to dry multiple times in the season. Last year was a disaster on offense that would have gotten any other coach in the league fired.
I really thought the defense was a great example of "team building". That unit was a huge building block for this year. Also, this is probably a weird concept to think about as a positive, but I fell the terrible line play may have really helped with Mac's development going forward. the game was speeded up a siht ton and he was forced to read defenses better, mainly for self-preservation. I'm not saying it was intentional, but I am hoping it pays dividends this coming season. Humans tend to learn hard lessons through mistakes, there were lots of mistakes last year and based off of BB's track record I have faith in him to correct many of them going forward. Always an optimist/homer...it will always be my preferred way to enjoy my sports teams.
 
And why wasn't brady afforded that same leeway after a 20 year dynasty and 6 Lombardis? Bill offered him the insulting deal after a super-bowl winning year when he came back for a 2 year deal.

we all praise Bill's approach of "its about what you can do for me now not your past" to defend letting go of Brady and other players. Yet when it comes to bill its "well the last 20 years"

should it not also apply?

Brady wanted out, and if Belichick wanted out I would be fine with that as well.
 
My fear is that we have become the 1980s Steelers. There are a lot of parallels there. They were the dominant team of the 1970s and when they lost their talent from that era, their HOF head coach was good enough to never allow the Steelers to really suck but they were just an average team that sometimes made the playoffs and were rarely successful when they did.

We are in year three of a post Brady rebuild (I am giving Belichick a mulligan on the Newton year) and the Pats look to be no closer to being a contender than they did at the start of the rebuild. In fact, they look to potentially be farther away. We have not seen any signs of this team getting better. Just treading water. They could surprise this year, but I don't think you want to bet on it.

I think as long as the Krafts own the team and are invested, I doubt the Pats will ever become a disaster. Teams that have poor organizational structures are usually teams with meddlesome owners (Dallas, Washington) or teams where the owners don't really give a crap (Jacksonville, Cleveland).

And right now, I would rather be the Rams than the 202x Patriots. Hell, I would rather the Pats totally suck for a year or two and allow them to draft at least one or two franchise players than what they have been post Brady.

The core of the problem is QB. I had no problem with them taking Jones because it was a rare opportunity to get a first round QB, and it’s almost impossible to get a good one in free agency. Their defense and run game are more than good enough to be a true contender, but these days you don’t win a Lombardi with those as your real strengths. The last example I can think of a team doing that was the Manning Bronco’s. So either Mac Jones has to turn into a franchise caliber QB, or it’s back to the drawing boards, and Belichick’s run is essentially over. This is a significant reason I would let him finish on his own terms, as I believe completely that 2024 is his last season coaching, and I don’t believe he will go into the front office as anything more than a consultant. I think that when he retires as coach he will go into full retirement. My hope is that Kraft and Mayo have a deal for him to take over when the 2024 season ends.
 


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