Why would anybody want Belichick fired in favor of BOB?

[n6249c]

Isn't player resistance an indictment of the coaching?

If players are so smart about it why do they need coaches?

 

[TheRainMaker]

With these NFL players, there is some development at play with a rare late bloomer, but for the most part the fans know young talent when they see it. Screw the record... they're far away from being a contender. Let's see some exciting young core players to build around for the future and stop stretching our imagination that many of these underwhelming, average draft picks are actually going to be great. I just want to see some better player development via draft, free agency, or however they do it.

Interesting. Who don’t you like?

In Bill’s early years guys like Seymour, Wilfork and Warren was arguably the best front 3 in the NFL. Teams were scrambling to try to run the 3-4 like the Pats.

While controversial, Mankins played well from the start.

Maybe throw in Mayo who played on very bad defenses.

Gronk and Hernandez were two more guys that you saw right away that they had “it”.

Chandler Jones and Hightower made an instant impact.

Collins showed something as well.

Of the recent drafts picks, there really isn’t anybody that stands out that are foundational players that the Pats must keep. The same thing is said by people in the media and analysts saying they have some fine players, but nobody that’s going to affect the team by their departure.

 

[borg]

People know the context of the Cleveland years…I don’t get why people keep using those against him.

Absolving Bill from the entirety of his Cleveland years based on a midseason announcement of relocation in Bill's 5th and final season before he was fired requires a tremendous amount of revision.
Years 1-3 of his Brown's tenure, Bill was 8 games under .500
6-10
7-9
7-9
In year 4, Bill guided the 11-5 Browns to the playoffs and his only postseason victory without Brady.
Going into Year 5, Cleveland was the favorite to reach the Superbowl but his team stumbled out of the gates going 4-5 before the team's exit plan was announced which did indeed derail the rest of the season. Browns finished up 1-6 by winning their last ever home game in Week 16 (of 17).
Years 1 thru 4.......Bill was 31-33
Years 1 thru the Browns' exit announcement in year 5.....Bill was 35-38
It's funny to me, Bill gets lauded for Cleveland's successful 1994 season but how dare anyone include his 3 prior years of sub-.500 coaching or his mediocre start to '95.

 

[203Pat]

In Bill’s early years guys like Seymour, Wilfork and Warren was arguably the best front 3 in the NFL. Teams were scrambling to try to run the 3-4 like the Pats.

While controversial, Mankins played well from the start.

Maybe throw in Mayo who played on very bad defenses.

Gronk and Hernandez were two more guys that you saw right away that they had “it”.

Chandler Jones and Hightower made an instant impact.

Collins showed something as well.

Of the recent drafts picks, there really isn’t anybody that stands out that are foundational players that the Pats must keep. The same thing is said by people in the media and analysts saying they have some fine players, but nobody that’s going to affect the team by their departure.

The 2009-2013 drafts were the biggest reason Bill was able to transition from the first half of the dynasty to the second.

2009: Patrick Chung, Sebastian Vollmer, Julian Edelman
2010: Devin McCourty, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, and Brandon Spikes to a lesser extent
2011: Nate Solder, Shane Vereen, Stevan Ridley, Marcus Cannon
2012: Chandler Jones, Donta Hightower
2013: Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan, Duron Harmon

Coming out of 5 drafts in a row with a mix of pro bowl level players and plus level starters allowed the best of the roster to be supplemented by free agents like most good teams do. After a string of very bad drafts Bill has hit on some solid players as of late. Nothing close to the stretch above and obviously none of them will matter much if Mac really can't play but the draft, and retaining the drafted players on a second contract, is how we get out of this funk.

 

[Rob0729]

Belichick will retire soon so this question will answer itself BUT I tend to think the media underestimates some of the most important factors in success.

That's organizational philosophy (constructing a roster and deciding where the money goes, how much you want to play backups, etc.) and continuity.

My fear is that the Patriots will become like so many teams that fail at both of these necessities.

I do believe it's possible to ignore both of these and win a Super Bowl, like the Rams did. But I'd rather not become the Rams. With their young "innovative" offensive coach, who 2x now was muzzled in a Super Bowl.

My fear is that we have become the 1980s Steelers. There are a lot of parallels there. They were the dominant team of the 1970s and when they lost their talent from that era, their HOF head coach was good enough to never allow the Steelers to really suck but they were just an average team that sometimes made the playoffs and were rarely successful when they did.

We are in year three of a post Brady rebuild (I am giving Belichick a mulligan on the Newton year) and the Pats look to be no closer to being a contender than they did at the start of the rebuild. In fact, they look to potentially be farther away. We have not seen any signs of this team getting better. Just treading water. They could surprise this year, but I don't think you want to bet on it.

I think as long as the Krafts own the team and are invested, I doubt the Pats will ever become a disaster. Teams that have poor organizational structures are usually teams with meddlesome owners (Dallas, Washington) or teams where the owners don't really give a crap (Jacksonville, Cleveland).

And right now, I would rather be the Rams than the 202x Patriots. Hell, I would rather the Pats totally suck for a year or two and allow them to draft at least one or two franchise players than what they have been post Brady.

 

[203Pat]

My fear is that we have become the 1980s Steelers. There are a lot of parallels there. They were the dominant team of the 1970s and when they lost their talent from that era, their HOF head coach was good enough to never allow the Steelers to really suck but they were just an average team that sometimes made the playoffs and were rarely successful when they did.

We are in year three of a post Brady rebuild (I am giving Belichick a mulligan on the Newton year) and the Pats look to be no closer to being a contender than they did at the start of the rebuild. In fact, they look to potentially be farther away. We have not seen any signs of this team getting better. Just treading water. They could surprise this year, but I don't think you want to bet on it.

I think as long as the Krafts own the team and are invested, I doubt the Pats will ever become a disaster. Teams that have poor organizational structures are usually teams with meddlesome owners (Dallas, Washington) or teams where the owners don't really give a crap (Jacksonville, Cleveland).

And right now, I would rather be the Rams than the 202x Patriots. Hell, I would rather the Pats totally suck for a year or two and allow them to draft at least one or two franchise players than what they have been post Brady.

I am curious as to why everyone gives Bill a pass on 2020?

 

[Rob0729]

I am curious as to why everyone gives Bill a pass on 2020?

I am just not counting it as part of the rebuild. They didn't have a potential QB of the future at that point. It isn't so much of a free pass. I just think of it as a transistion year.

 

[Ring 6]

I am curious as to why everyone gives Bill a pass on 2020?

Exactly what does “give a pass” mean?

 

[203Pat]

Exactly what does “give a pass” mean?

Not necessary Rob since he clarified what he said but I have seen some people say 2020 shouldn't count against Bill as part of the struggles since Brady left.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

...Going into Year 5, Cleveland was the favorite to reach the Superbowl but his team stumbled out of the gates going 4-5 before the team's exit plan was announced which did indeed derail the rest of the season.

As I recall, RUMORS of the franchise move started well before (as in MONTHS before) the rumors were proven to be true and the team's exit plans were officially confirmed. Players and coaches were being asked about whether they wanted the franchise to move, before the season even started. Modell's movements were tracked and everyone knew Baltimore was wooing him.

 

[Ivan]

Who are the people who are using the Cleveland years against him? Maybe it's not using it against "winning is what matters" Bill, but trying to add context.

Maybe the context is that he's an average HC/GM without a certain QB. Maybe the context is that his record in 5 years in CLE is under .500 and his record in NE without a certain QB is also under .500 in 5 years. Maybe the context is the system/Patriot's way is a bunch of manure. Maybe the context is that Bill's not an idiot and maximized the results for 20 years. Maybe the context is that a 71 year old HC/GM isn't the long term solution. Maybe the context is Bill's coaching tree is riddled with failures in the HC position.

He drafted and mentored that QB, and built multiple dynasties with and around him. And if you want to add some “ context” you can go ahead and name the other dynasties of the salary cap era? Or I can save you the time and tell you that there aren’t any. As great as Brady was he would not have won those rings without great players and coaches around him. Unfortunately there are far too many idiot fans in the New England fan base who are incapable of appreciating what Belichick built here the last 20 plus years.

 

[Ian]

Absolving Bill from the entirety of his Cleveland years based on a midseason announcement of relocation in Bill's 5th and final season before he was fired requires a tremendous amount of revision.
Years 1-3 of his Brown's tenure, Bill was 8 games under .500
6-10
7-9
7-9
In year 4, Bill guided the 11-5 Browns to the playoffs and his only postseason victory without Brady.
Going into Year 5, Cleveland was the favorite to reach the Superbowl but his team stumbled out of the gates going 4-5 before the team's exit plan was announced which did indeed derail the rest of the season. Browns finished up 1-6 by winning their last ever home game in Week 16 (of 17).
Years 1 thru 4.......Bill was 31-33
Years 1 thru the Browns' exit announcement in year 5.....Bill was 35-38
It's funny to me, Bill gets lauded for Cleveland's successful 1994 season but how dare anyone include his 3 prior years of sub-.500 coaching or his mediocre start to '95.

View attachment 51697

They started the 1995 season 3-1 and were playing really well, the outlook was bright - and then the whispers started. Again, I get people being mad at Bill now, but it’s amazing how many people saw the documentary that have since changed course due to the talk radio narrative.

The “Bill is a mediocre coach without Brady” is so easy to say. But that’s like blowing off the job he did with Cassell in 2008 just because they got hosed in a fluky season where 11 games wasn’t enough to make the postseason. I don’t get it.

But the revisionist history does sort of go both ways. How 2008 doesn’t matter is a little baffling. We’ve seen bad quarterbacks do worse with more. It could have been a disaster. He also went 3-1 with Garoppolo /Brissett. Again, they could have gone 0-4 to start that year and then maybe 2016 doesn’t pan out.

Brady’s been gone three years. It is what it is to this point. In the end, my opinion doesn’t really matter because he’ll either succeed or he won’t.

But Belichick’s legacy won’t be determined by Cleveland. It’ll be determined by the last 20yrs+ and whatever he does in his final seasons here.

 

[Ian]

In Bill’s early years guys like Seymour, Wilfork and Warren was arguably the best front 3 in the NFL. Teams were scrambling to try to run the 3-4 like the Pats.

While controversial, Mankins played well from the start.

Maybe throw in Mayo who played on very bad defenses.

Gronk and Hernandez were two more guys that you saw right away that they had “it”.

Chandler Jones and Hightower made an instant impact.

Collins showed something as well.

Of the recent drafts picks, there really isn’t anybody that stands out that are foundational players that the Pats must keep. The same thing is said by people in the media and analysts saying they have some fine players, but nobody that’s going to affect the team by their departure.

Don’t forget, several of the guys you’re talking about were taken a lot higher than where they normally pick. A lot of those “wow” guys are not usually there by the late first round.

 

[Ian]

I am curious as to why everyone gives Bill a pass on 2020?

I don’t necessarily. I’d like to know what Stidham did to fall so badly out of favor where they wouldn’t even let him start even when it was clear something was wrong with Newton…but I digress.

 

[203Pat]

I don’t necessarily. I’d like to know what Stidham did to fall so badly out of favor where they wouldn’t even let him start even when it was clear something was wrong with Newton…but I digress.

I know there was the rumors they were pissed off Stidham went to a wedding during OTA's or something but there had to have been some sort of agreement with Bill and Cam when he signed. I assume Cam signed for so cheap because Bill basically told him if he's healthy he's the starter because I cannot for the life of me fathom why else Cam would have been playing down the stretch that season when it was clear he was done. I mean at least we could have gotten a look at Stidham to see if he was with keeping as a backup.

 

[Brady6]

Idiots want a change. Sane Patriot fans know that firing Belichick would be lunacy.

I do not put much stock in someone who just insults a segment of people because they disagree with his or hers opinion. Like if I said people are stuck in the past are idiots, sane Patriots fans know that what Belichick did in the past is good enough to keep his job.

 

[Rob0729]

Idiots want a change. Sane Patriot fans know that firing Belichick would be lunacy.

If the Pats don't make the playoffs this year, it will be a half a decade since the Patriots have won a playoff game and three seasons in five years where they missed the playoffs. Belichick literally threw away last season making Patricia one of the worst offensive coordinators in history. A similar move got Andy Reid fired by the Eagles back in the day.

I am not so sure firing Belichick would be lunacy at that point. I have been an "In Bill We Trust" guy forever and longer than a lot of people who are questioning him now. But I don't think he is willing and/or able to adapt to today's game or running an offense without an elite QB. He won't give Mac Jones the weapons or invest in the exterior offensive line.

As far as I am concerned, the Patriots need to make the playoffs this season or I believe and fully support Belichick being fired. Next year, the Pats will have a lot of cap space and the Patriots will need a new GM in place to try to rebuild this team for the future and that future wouldn't include Belichick anymore. I am not being over reactionary. If the Pats don't make the playoffs this year, we will be four years out from Brady and be no closer to being a contender than the day Brady left.

Seriously, how more years of mediocrity do we need to have before we give Belichick. Belichick has taught me to root for laundry and no one is not expendable when their production falls off even Brady. I think that includes the coaching staff. I just don't know if Belichick is the guy he used to be.

 

[ahmed]

No rational fan should want Bob as HC. I didn't even want him as OC but last year made us all desperate for average coaching.

 

[Ivan]

If the Pats don't make the playoffs this year, it will be a half a decade since the Patriots have won a playoff game and three seasons in five years where they missed the playoffs. Belichick literally threw away last season making Patricia one of the worst offensive coordinators in history. A similar move got Andy Reid fired by the Eagles back in the day.

I am not so sure firing Belichick would be lunacy at that point. I have been an "In Bill We Trust" guy forever and longer than a lot of people who are questioning him now. But I don't think he is willing and/or able to adapt to today's game or running an offense without an elite QB. He won't give Mac Jones the weapons or invest in the exterior offensive line.

As far as I am concerned, the Patriots need to make the playoffs this season or I believe and fully support Belichick being fired. Next year, the Pats will have a lot of cap space and the Patriots will need a new GM in place to try to rebuild this team for the future and that future wouldn't include Belichick anymore. I am not being over reactionary. If the Pats don't make the playoffs this year, we will be four years out from Brady and be no closer to being a contender than the day Brady left.

Seriously, how more years of mediocrity do we need to have before we give Belichick. Belichick has taught me to root for laundry and no one is not expendable when their production falls off even Brady. I think that includes the coaching staff. I just don't know if Belichick is the guy he used to be.

We disagree. I think 6 Lombardi’s and a 20 year dynasty give Belichick all the cache he needs until he decides to hang them up, which imo will be after the 2024 season. Go look at any dynasty and what happened to them after they ended, almost all go into long droughts. I think his goal is to get them back to regular contention before retiring, and I think he deserves the latitude to do that. And while plenty of people here are gung ho to fire him, not one has a serious replacement for him.

 

[Rob0729]

We disagree. I think 6 Lombardi’s and a 20 year dynasty give Belichick all the cache he needs until he decides to hang them up, which imo will be after the 2024 season. Go look at any dynasty and what happened to them after they ended, almost all go into long droughts. I think his goal is to get them back to regular contention before retiring, and I think he deserves the latitude to do that. And while plenty of people here are gung ho to fire him, not one has a serious replacement for him.

So if Belichick wants to coach another ten years and he never gets more than 9-10 wins and a lot of eight win seasons and never wins another playoff game, we just have to just endure that because Belichick earned it. What if it is ten years of 5-6 wins a season? If Brady didn’t opt out of his contract, do you think Belichick would have kept re-signing Brady until he decided to retire even if Brady wanted to play to 50? By your logic, the Patriots should have also kept Brady on the roster even if he wanted to play until 60.

I am sorry, but the NFL is a results oriented league. I don’t think the fans and Kraft have to endure year after year of a crap product because Belichick is chasing a record. If Belichick was Kraft, he would have let himself go after what happened last season.

And based on the last two off seasons, I think Belichick’s only goal is to get the record. He has done next to nothing in free agency the last two years, he installed a coaching staff that he thought would make his life easier even though it was not in the best interest of the team or his second year QB, and he has pared down his work effort over the last few years.