Why Deion Branch over Julian Edelman ?

[DaBronxPats14]

Welker caught 122 passes last season, and was a huge part of why the team got to the Super Bowl. The team can save wear and tear on him just by having Lloyd on the field to take away some of the tough catches he needs to make. They don't need to take him off the field when he's the only WR on the roster who demands double teams. What they've been doing is asinine, and the offense has suffered as a result of it.

They had an opportunity to take an offense that was already very difficult to stop and make it better. Instead, they chose to go with just making it different.

And with said/typed it makes ya wonder and scratch ya head!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

But the amount of 2WR2TE they ran against Tennessee is obviously relevant. You are using semantics to prohibit any meaningful discussion, since the logical conclusion from that discussion doesn't fit in the argument you are making.

Happens often around here killing any meaningful discussion. When I first started posting here there was a little of that involving any attempt to rationally discuss the Brady contract situation which was at an impass... Some here felt he was lucky the team was even approaching him 2 years early on the heels of his third ring - believe it or not. Turned out he had agreed to their basic parameters early on and the hangup was they were ****ing around with his bonus money structure because they had assumed he wouldn't have any issue with that...either.

Tell you what, if Welker can play through much more of this experiment in his contract season without visibly declining, he's a better man and more mentally tough than I even assumed he was.

 

[Deus Irae]

So the number that you think would have happened under different circumstances IS meaningful? Meaningful is what he actually did, which has been pointed out to you time and again as well.
You have not been paying attention if you think the personell the Patriots use for the first 3 plays of the first drive of a game is indicative of what they will do all day.

You have not been paying attention if you think that the

Edelman
Lloyd
Gronk
Hernandez
RB

grouping is something that was just being used for a play or two. Again, just as in the other thread, you're arguing a position that you know is wrong.

 

[BradyManny]

And in that game, Welker had almost twice as many snaps as Edelman (43 to 23). So the idea that, based on the first 3 plays of the game, that Edelman would have taken more snaps than Welker in a 2 TE offense, doesn't have much more basis to it than what Andy is saying.

But it's not just based on the first 3 plays of the game, Edelman continued to get the nod in that formation throughout the game.

Something changed from week 1 to week 2 in the depth chart of that personnel package. I think we can agree on that. Edelman was getting the nod in week 2, for whatever reason, and there's several.

The Hernandez injury forced that personnel package to be called less often than the original gameplan likely called for. I think this is reasonable conjecture.

Therefore, had Hernandez not been injured, the Edelman-Welker snap count disparity would've been greater. Again, a reasonable conclusion, I would say. Certainly reasonable enough that it isn't worth dismissing outright.

 

[Kontradiction]

We're not talking about what they ended up doing. We're talking about what they set out intent on experimenting with doing because that is what they want to do. They want the two TE set to be the primary set they run this offense out of and they want 2 perimeter receivers playing in it for the most part and not a slot WR even if he is the best in the business. I'm not sure I see the need to pidgeonhole yourself like that, especially seeing what can happen when you lose the TE who really the nexsis for the whole concept. Not to mention when your OL is already a work in progress and you're offense is in flux and playing uncomfortably as a result. I really don't see why you would opt to force the issue at a time when you don't really have that other outside WR to compliment Lloyd who isn't even assimilated into the offense himself. Especially after you cut the 3 system experienced
guys who were competing for the spot in camp. Hell, you've struggled to field one let alone two outside WR's for the better part of several years now. So again, for me, it's a matter of what DI eluded to, throwing the baby out with the bath water when really there wasn't the need to. Plenty of time to test theories here and there depending on how things unfold. They opted to test them out of the gate. Only reason I can envision for that is they planned to make another move or two if things worked out. And they underestimated the enemy and they didn't anticipate the ever present risk of injury.

Thing is, they can still execute the two TE set (and even make it more effective) with Welker out there instead of Edelman. Again, unless there is some sort of lingering injury issue, it doesn't make sense for Welker not to start the game (and, personally, that's what I think, and hope, was happening).

 

[BradyManny]

They want the two TE set to be the primary set they run this offense out of and they want 2 perimeter receivers playing in it for the most part and not a slot WR even if he is the best in the business.

This is the key part of the discussion to me.

In that 2WR package, what routes is Edelman running - I'd have to go back and look or maybe someone with the all22 can inform. Is he considered a slot receiver in that package? Is he running underneath stuff, middle of the field stuff? Or is he outside the numbers?

If, as you say, they want two perimeter receivers out there - and I think that appears to be the case - then my objection is not that Edelman is playing over Welker; it would be that Edelman is playing over Branch or the unsigned Gaffney. Until Edelman can display he can produce at their level in this offense.

Though, I'd still like to point out, the one key exception aside, Wes has had some success running vertical routes in this offense, especially last season. He had some big seam routes OTOH (vs Jets, vs Phins).

 

[Kontradiction]

This is the key part of the discussion to me.

In that 2WR package, what routes is Edelman running - I'd have to go back and look or maybe someone with the all22 can inform. Is he considered a slot receiver in that package? Is he running underneath stuff, middle of the field stuff? Or is he outside the numbers?

If, as you say, they want two perimeter receivers out there - and I think that appears to be the case - then my objection is not that Edelman is playing over Welker; it would be that Edelman is playing over Branch or the unsigned Gaffney. Until Edelman can display he can produce at their level in this offense.

Though, I'd still like to point out, the one key exception aside, Wes has had some success running vertical routes in this offense, especially last season. He had some big seam routes OTOH (vs Jets, vs Phins).

From what I could tell, Welker's success running vertical routes in this offense was on the outside as well. I know he was lined up at flanker in the first Jets game and got through the zone to get open. Would have been a score if Revis didn't make a great effort play.

 

[Sicilian]

But it's not just based on the first 3 plays of the game, Edelman continued to get the nod in that formation throughout the game.

Something changed from week 1 to week 2 in the depth chart of that personnel package. I think we can agree on that. Edelman was getting the nod in week 2, for whatever reason, and there's several.

The Hernandez injury forced that personnel package to be called less often than the original gameplan likely called for. I think this is reasonable conjecture.

Therefore, had Hernandez not been injured, the Edelman-Welker snap count disparity would've been greater. Again, a reasonable conclusion, I would say. Certainly reasonable enough that it isn't worth dismissing outright.

You're right that it's not worth dismissing outright, but losing a player like Hernandez has to result in a gameplan shift since he's such a crucial part of the passing game. It's also reasonable to theorize (which is all ANY of us are doing), that once Aaron was gone, the coaching said, "Well, we need to play Edelman more now, so we might as well give him the few 2 TE snaps we're planning since he's a better blocker and Welker will still get almost 90% of the meaningful game snaps." Obviously not those exact words, but that idea.

Basically, you can't draw the conclusion that, because Edelman got the snaps in the 2-TE formation after it was essentially abandoned in this game, that if it were the primary formation he still would have gotten ALL the snaps or even the majority. The whole original gameplan (which we never knew and will never know), had to be completely scrapped.

 

[Deus Irae]

...The whole original gameplan (which we never knew and will never know), had to be completely scrapped.

This is the salient point, and it's why people pointing to the specific snap totals in game 2 are arguing a meaningless point. What we do know, though:

We know that the team has told us that this is the way they want it, as both McDaniels and Belichick have talked about it.

We know that Welker was on the bench to start the game.

We know that Welker wasn't targeted until right around the two minute mark of the first half.

We know that Welker was running mostly clear routes in the first half against the Cardinals.

We know that Edelman has been almost completely non-productive in the passing game in 3 of the 4 halves so far this season.

We know that Welker is still drawing bracket/double coverage when he's on the field.

 

[Kontradiction]

We know that Welker is still drawing bracket/double coverage when he's on the field.

Just as importantly, we know that Edelman is not.

 

[ATippett56]

Another reason why Deion Branch is back on the 53 man roster is Brandon Lloyd appears on the first injury report of the week.

Lloyd (thigh) limited in practice - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[Sicilian]

This is the salient point, and it's why people pointing to the specific snap totals in game 2 are arguing a meaningless point. What we do know, though:

We know that the team has told us that this is the way they want it, as both McDaniels and Belichick have talked about it.

We know that Welker was on the bench to start the game.

We know that Welker wasn't targeted until right around the two minute mark of the first half.

We know that Welker was running mostly clear routes in the first half against the Cardinals.

We know that Edelman has been almost completely non-productive in the passing game in 3 of the 4 halves so far this season.

We know that Welker is still drawing bracket/double coverage when he's on the field.

The wacky part of all this is that we probably won't have any idea what's going on for the foreseeable future. Beyond the fact that each game has a different plan (including games in the past where Welker hasn't started), we had the injury to Hernandez throwing things off in Game 2. Now this week you'll probably see Branch change up the snap totals a bit. Then once (hopefully) Winslow gets up to speed, he'll cause a change. And finally, when that's all settled, Hernandez will return and the whole thing will shift again. We may not have a good read on who they value and how they want to use guys until week 12

 

[Deus Irae]

The wacky part of all this is that we probably won't have any idea what's going on for the foreseeable future. Beyond the fact that each game has a different plan (including games in the past where Welker hasn't started), we had the injury to Hernandez throwing things off in Game 2. Now this week you'll probably see Branch change up the snap totals a bit. Then once (hopefully) Winslow gets up to speed, he'll cause a change. And finally, when that's all settled, Hernandez will return and the whole thing will shift again. We may not have a good read on who they value and how they want to use guys until week 12

I agree. I called it a holding pattern until Hernandez returns. What burns my ass about this is that it never had to happen.

 

[Sicilian]

I agree. I called it a holding pattern until Hernandez returns. What burns my ass about this is that it never had to happen.

I'm assuming you mean because of the cuts to all the WR's after camp. If so, I agree on Branch because after week 1, I don't see why he wasn't resigned right then. Even if they wanted to make sure his contract wasn't guaranteed, there wasn't really a reason for him to sit out week 2.

As for Gaffney, I think his health is still the issue, so it wouldn't have made much of a difference right now.

And Stallworth, I just don't think he had it this year. Remember, he lost his job in 07 late, and this preseason didn't look like any great shakes (had a case of the dropsies too).

The only viable WR option they could have kept was Branch, and like I said, I don't know why he wasn't on this team by week 2 at the latest.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm assuming you mean because of the cuts to all the WR's after camp. If so, I agree on Branch because after week 1, I don't see why he wasn't resigned right then. Even if they wanted to make sure his contract wasn't guaranteed, there wasn't really a reason for him to sit out week 2.

As for Gaffney, I think his health is still the issue, so it wouldn't have made much of a difference right now.

And Stallworth, I just don't think he had it this year. Remember, he lost his job in 07 late, and this preseason didn't look like any great shakes (had a case of the dropsies too).

The only viable WR option they could have kept was Branch, and like I said, I don't know why he wasn't on this team by week 2 at the latest.

What I mean is the decision to needlessly change the offense in such a way that it became built even more around a non-blocking TE who'd missed games in the two seasons prior to this, and who didn't have any adequate replacement behind him. Hernandez should have been candy, not oxygen.

 

[Ring 6]

You have not been paying attention if you think that the

Edelman
Lloyd
Gronk
Hernandez
RB

grouping is something that was just being used for a play or two. Again, just as in the other thread, you're arguing a position that you know is wrong.

How many plays was it used for?
You want to infer something from that and call it fact. That clearly is wrong, and you know that, just as in the other thread.

 

[Deus Irae]

How many plays was it used for?
You want to infer something from that and call it fact. That clearly is wrong, and you know that, just as in the other thread.

And again, you take the obvious and ignore it, since I'm not inferring anything of the kind....

I'm done with you. Get back to me when you're ready to discuss this stuff honestly.

 

[ATippett56]

What I mean is the decision to needlessly change the offense in such a way that it became built even more around a non-blocking TE who'd missed games in the two seasons prior to this, and who didn't have any adequate replacement behind him. Hernandez should have been candy, not oxygen.

To postulate, the Daniel Fells was signed back in March to be the backup to Aaron Hernandez. However, the New England Patriots did not anticipate for Daniels Fells to be injured at this juncture of the season.

 

[satz]

To postulate, the Daniel Fells was signed back in March to be the backup to Aaron Hernandez. However, the New England Patriots did not anticipate for Daniels Fells to be injured at this juncture of the season.

Hopefully , this is not true. you do not sign a blocking TE to repalce Hernandez. winslow is more of an aron type.

The Offense under oberian and josh are same but i think the first read is different. In josh`s offense the read progression start from the outside where as oberian was more of an inside look.

I still think taking an aging qb to pass outside first and then come to easier seam and in between the hash is a bad move.

satz

 

[Ring 6]

And again, you take the obvious and ignore it, since I'm not inferring anything of the kind....

I'm done with you. Get back to me when you're ready to discuss this stuff honestly.

Of course you are inferring it. Welker played 63 snaps, and you are saying there was a certain plan to keep him off the field.
There are dozens of possiblities of what would have ensued after the first 3 plays, as evidenced by 11 years of Belichick football here.
You, as you typically do, are taking the narrow minded view that the one you believe would have occured is the only one that existed.
You should be done with me, because you are better off selling your opinions to someone who doesn't see through them. Have a nice day.