What is the system?

[Brady6]

Huh?



The fact is that all of those players were overpaid when you look at what they got on their extension. None of them could really be argued as being worth it, aside from maybe Welker.



You totally lost me with the Percy Harvin comment, who didn't play more than a quarter or so prior to the last SB game. If you see that as "one of the key players" during the Seahawks run, I don't know what to tell you. One would assume that paying someone 11+ million wouldn't be worth ONE NFL game in 2013.

I said key cog in helping them win the Super Bowl as in the game itself. I would argue that if that one game was the Super Bowl and you returned a kick for a touchdown and led the team in rushing yards to help secure a championship than many GMs would gladly pay $11M. Any other situation I would agree, but Harvin did what Amendola didn't do he came up big when it mattered most so that forgives a lot.

I don't really see the issue with paying them both, you structure Edelman's contract similar to Amendola's and just give yourself some outs. Whatever we pay Edelman you can just add 1 year to it and $765K for this season and the total investment against the return is still solid for Edelman.

 

[Tunescribe]

The system is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth that you are a slave, Brady6. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

Complicating matters is that both blue and red are Patriots colors, so making a choice is difficult.

 

[supafly]

I said key cog in helping them win the Super Bowl as in the game itself. I would argue that if that one game was the Super Bowl and you returned a kick for a touchdown and led the team in rushing yards to help secure a championship than many GMs would gladly pay $11M. Any other situation I would agree, but Harvin did what Amendola didn't do he came up big when it mattered most so that forgives a lot.

A reasonable argument could be made that SEA severely would have overpaid for Percy Harvin's production had they paid him the veteran minimum, let alone an 11+ million dollar AAV contract where they gave up a plethora of draft picks (including a first rounder).

He scored a TD in the one game he appeared in fully, and that TD occurred when the score was 22-0 and the game was well in hand. He was nowhere near anything close to a vital part of their season, nor their SB victory, and if you think that "most GMs would be more than happy to pay his salary" for that kind of production, I implore you to immediately put in for the GM position at the New York Jets.

You seem like a very nice and respectful guy, and I think a lot of people could learn something for your attitude and posting style, but your constant tirade vs Danny Amendola has gotten terribly old, and I don't mean that as a personal cheapshot.

Even Welker, who could be the only slot player who one could argue made their money on their extension last year is now in danger of being restructured or outright cut on a 6m AAV salary.

If you think that Cruz earned his money on the 5/43 or 8.5 million dollar AAV extension, then more power to you, but the fact remains that ALL of those 4 players (Welker, Amendola, Cruz, Harvin) didn't earn their new money pacts, with the possible exception coming from Wes Welker, and even he is in danger of being cut or restructured if that tells you anything.

 

[supafly]

Whatever we pay Edelman you can just add 1 year to it and $765K for this season and the total investment against the return is still solid for Edelman.

So, according to your theory, Belichick would be still be happy if Edelman didn't prove worthy of NE's new money pact due to the fact that he was underpaid in the past?

Something tells me that Bill Belichick would not agree with this kind of thinking. New contracts are paid for the idea of future production and worth, not because they are happy that they received their production in the past years.

 

[Brady6]

A reasonable argument could be made that SEA severely would have overpaid for Percy Harvin's production had they paid him the veteran minimum, let alone an 11+ million dollar AAV contract where they gave up a plethora of draft picks (including a first rounder).

He scored a TD in the one game he appeared in fully, and that TD occurred when the score was 22-0 and the game was well in hand. He was nowhere near anything close to a vital part of their season, nor their SB victory, and if you think that "most GMs would be more than happy to pay his salary" for that kind of production, I implore you to immediately put in for the GM position at the New York Jets.

I am not a GM, which means what I say, and think does not have any consequences. I am not saying that I do not think the players were overpaid in 2013 what I am saying is that I do not think the teams have a major issue with their decisions to sign or acquirer the players.

You seem like a very nice and respectful guy, and I think a lot of people could learn something for your attitude and posting style, but your constant tirade vs Danny Amendola has gotten terribly old, and I don't mean that as a personal cheapshot.

I appreciate the kind words and as I have expressed to you in threads and in PM I have the highest level of respect and admiration for you as a member of this board. I do not agree that I am on a constant tirade about Danny Amendola; I think that I have a realistic vantage point of what Amendola is and what we can expect from him moving forward. I have stated multiple times that we should retain Amendola, and that my issue is not with Amendola it is with the expectations surrounding Amendola. I am not bashing Amendola is my point I am being fair, for some reason you are ultra-sensitive and defensive to anything said about Amendola, and I do not mean that to be a disrespectful it is just an observation. You want me to buy into a NFL players making this significant leap in his seventh season but you don’t really have anything other than a handful of games that he would have to duplicate week in and week out to point to as the reason to believe this is possible. In all honesty, I would not even have an issue with you advocating that, that could happen except for in doing so you are adamantly against paying Edelman a player who has already achieved the type of season people hope Amendola can have.

I guess I simply do not understand why you feel Amendola is the better player than Edelman is and worthy of a higher contract than Edelman? Do you believe that Amendola would have shown the flashes and potential he did in 2010-2012 had he been on the Patriots like Edelman? I do not, and that is not knocking Amendola that is reality; Welker played 98% of the snaps on offense, Gronkowski and Hernandez both worked primarily in the middle of the field, and we had Deion Branch running intermediate routes. We also invested in WRs like Lloyd, Johnson, Price, and Tate during that time who we were implementing into the offense or at least attempting to.

With that in mind and taking into consideration, that Edelman was a college QB who converted to WR his rookie season I think it is fair to believe Edelman received his first opportunity to prove the type of player he could be and took advantage of it. You do not see it that way, you see it as the times making the man instead of the man making the times, while I disagree with that I will go with it and ask the question if Edelman leaves and Amendola catches 100+ and gains 1000+ yards. The same argument could be made about the system being the reason Amendola succeeded and if that were the case wouldn’t he only be worth $3-$4 million?

I think you confuse my trying to understand your reasoning (because I value your opinions) for why Amendola is worth more than Edelman for a tirade is. That said I am not going to sit here and pretend I am the biggest Amendola fan in the world and I am posting in my #80 shirt as we speak. I do not despise him, I think he is a very good NFL receiver. I just believe Edelman is a better player and we would be making a catastrophic mistake letting Edelman walk and entrusting Amendola who I think lacks the ability to be the consistent slot receiver this offense needs. Amendola would be fine in the capacity that we used Hernandez in which is a player who was sporadic and could dominate certain matchup’s to the tune of 100+ yards, etc.

 

[Kontradiction]

Complicating matters is that both blue and red are Patriots colors, so making a choice is difficult.

You know, I know this really good defense doesn't exist. I know that when I watch it, the system is telling my brain that it is aggressive and physical. After nine years, you know what I realize?

[Watches Peyton Manning complete screen that goes for a first down on third and long]

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Brady6]

So, according to your theory, Belichick would be still be happy if Edelman didn't prove worthy of NE's new money pact due to the fact that he was underpaid in the past?

Something tells me that Bill Belichick would not agree with this kind of thinking. New contracts are paid for the idea of future production and worth, not because they are happy that they received their production in the past years.

I think that teams pay for previous production at times or at least look at the player in terms of total investment during their tenure against their contributions. To date the Patriots have paid Edelman $2,563,700 for 5 years of service and he has produced –

• 71 games played
• 199 receptions
• 2018 receiving yards
• 2 two point conversions
• 93 rushing yards
• 13 receiving touchdowns
• 2094 return yards
• 3 return touchdowns
• 26 tackles
• 3 forced fumbles
• 1 fumble recovery
• 1 defensive touchdown

• 4205 total yards from scrimmage
• 17 total touchdown

At an average of $512,740 over his first 5 years with the team, Edelman is likely if not the best one of the best investments the team has made over the past 5 seasons.

 

[supafly]

I think that teams pay for previous production at times or at least look at the player in terms of total investment during their tenure against their contributions. To date the Patriots have paid Edelman $2,563,700 for 5 years of service and he has produced –

• 71 games played
• 199 receptions
• 2018 receiving yards
• 2 two point conversions
• 93 rushing yards
• 13 receiving touchdowns
• 2094 return yards
• 3 return touchdowns
• 26 tackles
• 3 forced fumbles
• 1 fumble recovery
• 1 defensive touchdown

• 4205 total yards from scrimmage
• 17 total touchdown

At an average of $512,740 over his first 5 years with the team, Edelman is likely if not the best one of the best investments the team has made over the past 5 seasons.

I don't doubt your thoughts that Edelman has been a good investment during his time here, only that Bill Belichick isn't likely to give a damn about past performance when attempting to come up with reasonable compensation for the future. I'm not sure why any GM would take past production into the negotiations for a future pact? Belichick isn't paying Edelman for last year (the other 4 weren't quite as hot as you're making them out to be, but that's a whole other debate for another time), he's paying him for what he believes will happen in the future.

The only possible exception that I would see would be a case like Welker's 2012 franchise tag, where Belichick drops his 2013 offer down due to the fact that he feels that Welker was overpaid the year before with the 10 million dollars. We saw a prime example of that where Belichick's "2/10" deal from last year's offseason was rumored to really be seen as a "3/20" deal from the Patriots standpoint (which was higher than Belichick's original 3/18 offer in the first place). This was reported to be one of the reasons why Belichick dropped the "2/16" deal down to "2/10" after the use of the franchise tag the year before.

I hear what you're saying, and I'm not saying that you don't make sense from a reasonable standpoint, only that the NFL is much more cutthroat than many normal businesses are. If any GM is going to throw past production out the door, it's Bill Belichick. Those 2013, 2012, 2011 etc salary caps are long gone, so the only one he's interested in at this point is the 2014 and the future of the team.

 

[supafly]

I guess I simply do not understand why you feel Amendola is the better player than Edelman is and worthy of a higher contract than Edelman?

Forget about Amendola vs. Edelman....Belichick can make the decision on him in his own time, so whatever he chooses is fine with me. This is only about Julian Edelman and what his worth is to the NE Patriots, which probably isn't nearly as much as a lot of posters are suggesting. If he chooses to test the waters of free agency, the odds are pretty good that Belichick won't be matching the kind of money that others are offering; of course Edelman will have to make a decision himself, whether or not he'd rather stay here and take less to play for a winner, etc.

Obviously the professional talent evaluators and scouts had some questions for Julian Edelman, along with his injury concern last offseason, or he'd have received better offers. For whatever reason the same professionals (along with Belichick, whose reputation speaks for itself) saw enough out of Danny Amendola to warrant taking a chance on him for at least 2 years. Those 3.5 and 4.6 cap hits aren't great, but the risk was nowhere near what you often make it out to be either. I don't think that you'd be complaining nearly as much had Amendola had a cap hit of 2.5m last year instead of 3.5m.

If you want the most simplistic form of an acceptable answer as to why scouts and professional coaches and GMs valued Amendola more than Edelman, it'd likely be due to the fact that Amendola had proven himself much more than Edelman did. There is a tier in place here for these kinds of receivers. It goes:

Harvin---11 million AAV
Cruz-----9 million AAV
Welker---6 million AAV
Amendola-5.7 million AAV
Edelman---??????? (likely below all of them)

As we all know, had these kinds of contracts been signed THIS offseason, most of these numbers would be down across the board. Whether or not that plays into Edelman's situation, no one knows. We can pretty much agree that the odds that Belichick pays him 5m+ AAV are not very good, so he likely either takes that kind of deal somewhere else, or takes less to remain here.

 

[FCB02062]

Great, but why has "the system" ultimately failed in the playoffs for the last NINE seasons????? Anyone?????

Also, the article mentions Weis saying the "system" makes it "easier" for quarterback and receivers...if so, then why do so many drafted receivers and free agent receivers come to the Pats and have a hard time grasping the "system" and sucking?????