What is the system?

[JDot]

Not at all. My point was we paid a superior player a large sum of money because we could not just stick anyone into the system and have them be successful and Belichick acknowledged it a quality player is needed.

Talk about being defensive...

I am not being defensive at all. I have just unfortunately read the probably 1k posts by you about Amendola this year. And I really don't want to be sucked in to your obsession of him.

I assumed that this thread was about the Pats Offensive system. And how Jules fits in said system. But now I see this thread was just a low key way for you to bring it back to why you think Amendola is getting payed to much. As evident by your post quoted by me.

So having said that, I am out..

 

[Brady6]

I am not being defensive at all. I have just unfortunately read the probably the 1k post by you about Amendola this year. And I really don't want to be sucked in to your obsession of him.

I assumed that this thread was about the Pats Offensive system. And how Jules fits in said system. But now I see this thread was just a low key way for you to bring it back to why you think Amendola is getting payed to much. As evident by your post quoted by me.

So having said that, I am out..

WTF are you talking about, what I said about Amendola was implied as a positive. If anyone could have 100 catches and 1000 yards we wouldn't have spent big on a UFA slot receiver. We could have plugged any street UFA in for the veteran minimum. The point was it takes a good player to do so and the Amendola signing reflected that.

 

[PP2]

Getting back to the subject at hand, I think it's a very interesting thing to discuss. In the Brady/BB version of the EP offense, what makes Welker and Edelman so successful in it, but others like Ebert and Price misfits? Why do deep threat receivers almost never flourish in it, but short field receivers are more successful than not?

How is it that either Dobson or Thompkins as rookies could fit in so fast, but Ocho or Galloway, two experienced veterans, couldn't? (Spare the IQ comparisons, we've been through that many times).

I have some ideas, but never having played football myself, I would defer to those who have. It's too bad we don't hear from Jay Shields (Jays52) anymore, but there are a few posters out there who could contribute.

Anyone want to go poke a stick into the hole that leads to Unoriginal's burrow? Bet he could shed some light on this, being a former receiver.

 

[RayClay]

I just think it is extremely ignorant to suggest that Edelman’s 100+ and 1000+ yards season was a product of a system. In the 40+ years this franchise has been around, we have had three players catch 100+ footballs and Edelman was one of them. If it is a system, we really suck at teaching it because three people being able to learn it in 40 years, is not impressive.

I read threads like what it takes to catch 100 balls and gain a 1000 yards and I think, really. Why did we waste the $28.5 mil on Amendola we could have just plugged an UDFA in there and saved big bucks?

Because when we let Welker go, all we had left was a special teamer who'd only shown brief flashes as a receiver and was injured allll the time. His name was Edelman.

I love me some Troy Brown and Welker, but when you're a slot receiver for Brady, you're going to get a chance to catch 100 balls, because you're his safety valve receiver. You might average 4-5 yards a catch some games, so going only by totals doesn't tell you much. When we had Bledsoe, it was Coates.

Receivers that catch less balls but avegae 15-20 yards are valuable too, in fact our lack of deeper threats is a problem because teams are happy to allow someone to 3 yard catches in a game (see Denver.

Injuries to Dobson hurt us there and Amendola's injuries opened an opportunity for Edelman. Amendola had 10 receptions in game one, including post injury and that's pretty impressive for his first game with Tom. Besides the injury, he probably was behind the health Edelman in priority, but that was an indication he did his homework.

 

[RayClay]

Getting back to the subject at hand, I think it's a very interesting thing to discuss. In the Brady/BB version of the EP offense, what makes Welker and Edelman so successful in it, but others like Ebert and Price misfits? Why do deep threat receivers almost never flourish in it, but short field receivers are more successful than not?

How is it that either Dobson or Thompkins as rookies could fit in so fast, but Ocho or Galloway, two experienced veterans, couldn't? (Spare the IQ comparisons, we've been through that many times).

I have some ideas, but never having played football myself, I would defer to those who have. It's too bad we don't hear from Jay Shields (Jays52) anymore, but there are a few posters out there who could contribute.

Anyone want to go poke a stick into the hole that leads to Unoriginal's burrow? Bet he could shed some light on this, being a former receiver.

Patriots receivers have to make decisions on almost every route and I think that favors quick receivers. They're timing routes, so if the receivers runs them wrong (wiggins/ocho) or reads the defense wrong (read says cut left, receiver cuts right) Tom could be throwing the ball to where you were supposed to be and you're not going to get thrown to until you learn.

A lot of veterans don't have that type of system and it's hard to break old habits (getting "open" is wrong because you were supposed to break a different way).

 

[supafly]

In the 40+ years this franchise has been around, we have had three players catch 100+ footballs and Edelman was one of them.

I think looking at the current run would be much more appropriate.

In other words, forget about "40+ years" (has it really only been 40 yrs?), let's look at the fact that since Belichick/Brady have been here, we've seen it done in the majority of the years with Brown, Welker, and Edelman. I don't know the exact numbers, but just looking at those 3 players that you mention would point to a good 7-8 years of having 100+ catches in the short field while Brady/Belichick were here. The past years prior to them being here are somewhat irrelevant in my opinion.

Obviously, Belichick and Brady like the quicker timing routes that tend to take advantage of quicker QB releases, pre-snap read mismatches, and/or are simply throwing to the safety valve to take whatever the defense is giving you. Whether or not "anyone" could do that is a loaded question, but whoever is going to play there is likely to get a lot of looks, which will lead to a higher amount of receptions. It would seem that Belichick has some confidence that NFL quality players can get on the same page and excel with practice.

Why did we waste the $28.5 mil on Amendola we could have just plugged an UDFA in there and saved big bucks?

Obviously, the odds are going to be much higher of seeing more success with higher talent and skills, so while it's silly to think that "anyone" can step in at any given time, it's also reasonable to assume that the odds will be increased if you make it up the depth chart and prove some sort of rapport with our starting QB.

Belichick went after what was highly thought around the league as the next best thing, or possibly even in Belichick's mind (right or wrong) as someone who had the capacity to potentially replicate most of Welker's numbers over the course of the next several years. Let's remember that Amendola did look pretty good both in the preseason prior to the groin injury before the 3rd preseason game, and also in the opener vs BUF, so if Amendola remains healthy it's possible that we're not even remotely concerned about losing Edelman right now, aside from his obvious ST value.

It would seem to be a combination of both increased looks meshed with reasonable amount of talent.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Obviously, the odds are going to be much higher of seeing more success with higher talent and skills, so while it's silly to think that "anyone" can step in at any given time, it's also reasonable to assume that the odds will be increased if you make it up the depth chart and prove some sort of rapport with our starting QB.

Belichick went after what was highly thought around the league as the next best thing, or possibly even in Belichick's mind (right or wrong) as someone who had the capacity to potentially replicate most of Welker's numbers over the course of the next several years. Let's remember that Amendola did look pretty good both in the preseason prior to the groin injury before the 3rd preseason game, and also in the opener vs BUF, so if Amendola remains healthy it's possible that we're not even remotely concerned about losing Edelman right now, aside from his obvious ST value...

Tom Brady was sacked 40 times this season. Tom Brady had not been sacked more than 32 times in a season since his first year as the team's starter.

The Patriots scored 444 points this season.
Since the transformation of the offense was undergone in 2007, the only other time the Brady-led Patriots had scored fewer than 500 points was the 2009 season where Brady was returning from his injury/lost season.

People keep trying to float the notion that Edelman somehow made up for Welker (replaced him is the usual term), when he didn't, even with the help of Amendola. This was a much lesser offense than we are used to seeing, and we could see the results of that on the field, even in a lot of the wins. It wasn't all about the decline in play of the slot receiver(s), but that was a chunk of it. Talent at the position matters.

 

[patsfan-1982]

someone has already said it. Brady is the system and he loves throwing to the slot WR and 3rd down back's am sure if some other team/QB throws to Edelman over a 150 times in a season the way Brady did he will put up the same numbers anywhere but if you have a legitimate outside WR like most NFL teams do why would you throw to Edelman over a 150 times

 

[supafly]

Tom Brady was sacked 40 times this season. Tom Brady had not been sacked more than 32 times in a season since his first year as the team's starter.

The Patriots scored 444 points this season.
Since the transformation of the offense was undergone in 2007, the only other time the Brady-led Patriots had scored fewer than 500 points was the 2009 season where Brady was returning from his injury/lost season.

People keep trying to float the notion that Edelman somehow made up for Welker (replaced him is the usual term), when he didn't, even with the help of Amendola. This was a much lesser offense than we are used to seeing, and we could see the results of that on the field, even in a lot of the wins. It wasn't all about the decline in play of the slot receiver(s), but that was a chunk of it. Talent at the position matters.

Regarding Edelman specifically, I basically look at this past offensive season with an asterisk, due to some of the reasons that you provided. There's no doubt that Edelman's production had a lot to do with no other viable options, and the injury and rookie factors as well. I think we'll get a much better read on Belichick's feelings re: Edelman if/when some numbers start to get leaked in terms of Patriot offers.

I wouldn't think that Belichick is going to offer anything close to what some are projecting myself, so I think unless Edelman is willing to take a conservative deal where he would leave money from another team on the table, he'll be gone. Just my opinion though. It's hard to guess what Belichick is thinking, but I'd be a bit surprised if he chose to pay Edelman more than about 4.5m AAV--tops.

 

[Deus Irae]

Regarding Edelman specifically, I basically look at this past offensive season with an asterisk, due to some of the reasons that you provided. There's no doubt that Edelman's production had a lot to do with no other viable options, and the injury and rookie factors as well. I think we'll get a much better read on Belichick's feelings re: Edelman if/when some numbers start to get leaked in terms of Patriot offers.

I wouldn't think that Belichick is going to offer anything close to what some are projecting myself, so I think unless Edelman is willing to take a conservative deal where he would leave money from another team on the table, he'll be gone. Just my opinion though. It's hard to guess what Belichick is thinking, but I'd be a bit surprised if he chose to pay Edelman more than about 4.5m AAV--tops.

I hear you, and I don't disagree. My point's not really Edelman, or even Amendola. It's more that the team is going to have to adjust the sytem a bit more than they did last season without Welker, just as they had to adjust without Moss. They're going to probably have to do it through diversifying the offense, because this team has had two legit top shelf threats pretty much every year since 2007, and they're now down to one. It was Welker/Moss, then it was Welker/Gronk/Ahern. Now it's just Gronk, and even that's only going to be there if he can stay on the field.

 

[DarrylS]

If I read this correctly, if we sign a free agent receiver he should have already proved his worth in the Erhardt-Perkins system.

Perhaps the famous adjustment issues with the Pats for many receivers, may have less to do with cognitive ability, but more familiarity with the system they have been brought up in.

 

[RayClay]

If I read this correctly, if we sign a free agent receiver he should have already proved his worth in the Erhardt-Perkins system.

Perhaps the famous adjustment issues with the Pats for many receivers, may have less to do with cognitive ability, but more familiarity with the system they have been brought up in.

It has to do with reading the defense and making the decision Brady expects you to.

 

[Observer]

The system -> all about passing
Passing -> all about Brady

Therefore, the system -> Brady, i.e receivers that fit Brady's comfort zone and go where he expects them to go. Brady's comfort zone = quick, short routes -> emphasis on slot receivers and TEs.

 

[Brady6]

I think looking at the current run would be much more appropriate.

In other words, forget about "40+ years" (has it really only been 40 yrs?), let's look at the fact that since Belichick/Brady have been here, we've seen it done in the majority of the years with Brown, Welker, and Edelman. I don't know the exact numbers, but just looking at those 3 players that you mention would point to a good 7-8 years of having 100+ catches in the short field while Brady/Belichick were here. The past years prior to them being here are somewhat irrelevant in my opinion.

Obviously, Belichick and Brady like the quicker timing routes that tend to take advantage of quicker QB releases, pre-snap read mismatches, and/or are simply throwing to the safety valve to take whatever the defense is giving you. Whether or not "anyone" could do that is a loaded question, but whoever is going to play there is likely to get a lot of looks, which will lead to a higher amount of receptions. It would seem that Belichick has some confidence that NFL quality players can get on the same page and excel with practice.

I was being sarcastic about the 40 years.

I think that any player that is the primary target in an offense has a chance to be successful. In New England that is generally an inside WR; other places like Houston or Cleveland that is an outside WR like Andre Johnson and Josh Gordon. We do not refer to them as system WRs despite the fact that their system is designed for them to be targeted 150+ times in a season. Vereen was targeted 84 times in his ten games (including the playoffs) so does his success come because of being a system RB?

In my opinion, learning a system and exceling in it is a positive and not something that should be used to devalue your achievements.

Obviously, the odds are going to be much higher of seeing more success with higher talent and skills, so while it's silly to think that "anyone" can step in at any given time, it's also reasonable to assume that the odds will be increased if you make it up the depth chart and prove some sort of rapport with our starting QB.

Belichick went after what was highly thought around the league as the next best thing, or possibly even in Belichick's mind (right or wrong) as someone who had the capacity to potentially replicate most of Welker's numbers over the course of the next several years. Let's remember that Amendola did look pretty good both in the preseason prior to the groin injury before the 3rd preseason game, and also in the opener vs BUF, so if Amendola remains healthy it's possible that we're not even remotely concerned about losing Edelman right now, aside from his obvious ST value.

It would seem to be a combination of both increased looks meshed with reasonable amount of talent.

Amendola’s performance against the Bills was one game, if you have no concern over losing Edelman because of that one game I think that you are setting yourself up for a tremendous disappointment. Amendola had a good game just as he did against the Dolphins in week 15 and against the Redskins and 49ers last season. He is inconsistent, so if you want to put all your eggs in that basket I have a feeling you will be regretting it with the exception of 2-4 games a year.

That said I have no issue with retaining Amendola, I just disagree with your assertion that we would be fine without Edelman, you must be forgetting that Edelman was the player with 2 touchdowns in the week 1 game against the Bills that has you feeling so strongly about Amendola.

 

[Ring 6]

If I read this correctly, if we sign a free agent receiver he should have already proved his worth in the Erhardt-Perkins system.

Perhaps the famous adjustment issues with the Pats for many receivers, may have less to do with cognitive ability, but more familiarity with the system they have been brought up in.

The Patriots system HAS ROOTS in the old Erhardt-Perkins system but it has evolved into something that doesn't really resemble it, including the heavy use of site reads, hurry up, ad spread, which didn't exist in that system

 

[Ring 6]

Regarding Edelman specifically, I basically look at this past offensive season with an asterisk, due to some of the reasons that you provided. There's no doubt that Edelman's production had a lot to do with no other viable options, and the injury and rookie factors as well. I think we'll get a much better read on Belichick's feelings re: Edelman if/when some numbers start to get leaked in terms of Patriot offers.

I wouldn't think that Belichick is going to offer anything close to what some are projecting myself, so I think unless Edelman is willing to take a conservative deal where he would leave money from another team on the table, he'll be gone. Just my opinion though. It's hard to guess what Belichick is thinking, but I'd be a bit surprised if he chose to pay Edelman more than about 4.5m AAV--tops.

i think that no one offers Edelman more than that 4.5 mill, and maybe not more than 3/10.

Edelman did a great job this year. He does a great job running after the catch. He played in an offense where, aside from him:
The #1 target was injured for half the season
The #2 target, who relies on quick breaks in and out of cuts was nursing a groin injury all season.
The #3 target was incarcerated.
The #3 target to replace him missed half the season with a broken wrist.
The outside receivers were all injured for numerous games, the best of which was hampered through camp and slow to develop a chemistry with Brady.

The "Edelman-centrc" Patriot offense was the least productive Patriot offense in years. That is not Edelmans fault, it is an indication that his production was out of necessity not design.

Scoring was down a TD a game from 13 and 5-7 points from each of the last 3 seasons. Scoring in games without Gronk was down more than 10 points a game from last year.

Teams don't pay big money to a player who steps in and gets catches while the offense takes a step backward.

As far as the 'system' I'm not sure why the term system player got into this, but the point at hand is that the system the Patriots run puts heavy emphasis on short, quick passes, ad running quick players through traffic to get them open. That philosophy played into edlemans production, and in a different system his skillset would not be as valued.

 

[PP2]

The Patriots system HAS ROOTS in the old Erhardt-Perkins system but it has evolved into something that doesn't really resemble it, including the heavy use of site reads, hurry up, ad spread, which didn't exist in that system

You are dead wrong on that.

One reason the Pats excel so well in the hurry up, is because the philosophy of the EP offense uses football concepts rather than the specific routes called for by the West Coast offense or the tree philosophy of the Coryell. When West Coast offense goes into hurry up, they more often than not, go to a very simplified playbook.

This allows Brady to use just one or two words (think "alabama") to alert his receivers as to what his intentions are, and why he gets the snap off so fast when he is in hurry up, because while "who does what" changes, the underlying tactics do not, and so Brady doesn't have to change his reads even though the looks and formations are different.

So while BB has taken the EP offense and turned it into a system, the underlying philosophy is still very much intact.

 

[PP2]

Patriots receivers have to make decisions on almost every route and I think that favors quick receivers. They're timing routes, so if the receivers runs them wrong (wiggins/ocho) or reads the defense wrong (read says cut left, receiver cuts right) Tom could be throwing the ball to where you were supposed to be and you're not going to get thrown to until you learn.

A lot of veterans don't have that type of system and it's hard to break old habits (getting "open" is wrong because you were supposed to break a different way).

I really doubt the answers are that simple which is why I am interested in generating a football discussion in this thread rather than having know-it-all types of "explanations" that we get from certain posters.

Not all routes are timed, especially when the play breaks down. Why is it that when the play breaks down, players like Branch and Welker still put themselves in a position to make a reception and others don't?

I also doubt it is all about reading the defense, especially on hot reads.

Although I do agree that when the offense goes into a "if this, then that" mode, certain receivers like Ocho freeze up because they have option anxiety.

 

[RayClay]

I really doubt the answers are that simple which is why I am interested in generating a football discussion in this thread rather than having know-it-all types of "explanations" that we get from certain posters.

Not all routes are timed, especially when the play breaks down. Why is it that when the play breaks down, players like Branch and Welker still put themselves in a position to make a reception and others don't?

I also doubt it is all about reading the defense, especially on hot reads.

Although I do agree that when the offense goes into a "if this, then that" mode, certain receivers like Ocho freeze up because they have option anxiety.

I'm not a football expert, but I think what i said was basically true.

I hope you find some technical answers, but avoid know it alls. I'll try to avoid responding to your questions in the future.

As far as Ocho goes, I posted a video of Wiggins showing how, by not cutting back sharply as he was supposed to, Ocho was open, but didn't screen off the defender, so The pass which was already in the air was picked off.

I doubt he suffers from anxiety, as you put it.

I also posted an article about their option system.

 

[Deus Irae]

PP, here's another Chris Brown piece. You can probably consider it a blueprint for what they want/need from their slot WR in general.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/happy-feet-how-wes-welker-makes-the-patriots-go/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0