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What is Logan's principle???

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Pats726, Aug 25, 2010.

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  1. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I am really confused as to what the issues are here and WHAT principle he is standing steadfast on.
    He was one who I thought that the Pats should draft that year..thought more 2nd 3rd than a 1st, but I thought he would be a great fit and HE WAS. But now, given this situation..I am having a HARD time understanding what his beef is with the team.
    I've heard his words regarding this from the past..heard a VERY GOOD scenario on D&C...and
    I am still confused as to WHAT principle he is standing up on.
    It's mentioned that he was underpaid rookie contract and that happens..it's NOT like he's the only one. There is a mention about going to Kraft and being told it qill be taken care of after the uncapped year.....I think he misspoke and really meant THIS year, but the offer that the Patriots gave him was nothing at all to sneeze at...35 million over 5 years?? I think to any lineman THIS is a solid offer and would take it in an instant. Instead, Mankins turned up his njose and sat on his fanny...claiming principle.
    What the heck is HIS principle that he's sitting out??? Kraft lied to him? How why?? Is taking 7 mil a year an insult?? Is THAT offer being treated poorly?? (I think all would NOT see this as the case at ALL...Logan time to get off the high horse and get your head out of your backside..) I have tried to see WHAT OTHER principle he's standing tall on..other than simple GREED..OR GREEDIER than anyone SHOULD be. Not sure there's ANY answer..really. EVEN in what he said..that Kraft told him he's be taken care of...and THAT offer is REASONABLE and fair and nothing short of that. If Mr Mankins is making a stink that he's not the TOP lineman paid..then he can take himself back to the ranch and play with the steers and STAY there. No coming back to NE or anywhere..Frankly I doubt Kraft promised him the HIGHEST contract.
    So what else is there?? WHAT other reason?? I feel like his agent has not helped him and I really think he's in some kind of dream world..In bad economic times, being greedy like this is quite silly and dumb..and shows LITTLE character...BUT he may have painted himself into a corner..NOT playing this year and..if there's a lockout next, it will be 2 years NO money NO playing..and that value will GO WAY DOWN...
    But what are the high and mighty principles he is playing out??? If it's greed..then he's a selfish SOB and should be gone... What OTHER real reasons are there?? Soiled athlete is something that is thrown around a LOt..maybe his picture should be there.
    But I have also wracked my brains to see what/if and tried to see other angles on this..but have come up totally empty. I hear rumblings of "principle" BUT given what I have heard in audio from the past..it seems the ONLY principle is pure greed. I would like to believe it is more than that, BUT???? No idea what it would be.
  2. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Trade him for Albert Haynsworth, or an edge pass rusher. Guards are overrated as is.
  3. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    I genuinely believe that he just didn't like the structure of the deal with my assumption being that the guraranteed $$ is either spread out or structured in a way that he feels is not consistient to what other players in the league are receiving.

    Everything else is just rhetoric (agent, Mankins, etc).

    My .02$
  4. JackBauer

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    Albert Haynesworth?

    Seriously?

    No, I mean seriously?
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Patriots would put Buddy Farnham there before they traded for Haynesworth.
  6. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    Could have used a bit more of that.....
  7. folamzz

    folamzz Banned

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    The homers amaze me. 35 million over 5 years is something to sneeze at. Evans and Mangold just got over 50 million dollars. If you are a big time player in this league, anything less than 40 million dollars for your first deal after playing out your rookie deal is ludicrous.
  8. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I'd consider it, yes. If the Pats struggle to stop the run, and the loss of Warren proves significant, then it should be considered. I think he's owed short money over the next 2 years, before bonuses kick in. I'm not saying to do it, as much as I'm saying I'd consider it. Guards are overrated, and as much as I'd take a draft pick for Mankins if he doesn't resign, I'd much prefer an established player, preferably a front 7 guy on D. This team has enough picks and young players to work in as is. Brady isn't getting any younger, and I would prefer a move that helps them compete right now.
  9. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Has nothing to do with homerism IMO. It comes down to value the player and the position has to the org.

    Simply put, the Pats don't think LM is Tier 1 value like they do Brady, Moss, Wilfork, Seymour (2006) or worth $40-$50m guaranteed.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  10. plk

    plk Rookie

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    I wonder if one of you who has the ability to set up a poll would do so.

    What I would really like to know is what percentage of the people who are following the Mankins contract situation think that they have reasonably certain knowledge about what Mankins was offered by the Patriots.

    I would also like to know what percentage of the people who are following the Mankins contract situation think that they have reasonably certain knowledge about what Mankins thinks that Kraft promised him.

    Obviously the questions can be phrased in many different ways. I would be very interested in the results.
  11. The Brandon Five

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    Probably because he didn't perform at a Tier 1 level in the biggest game of his career, unlike Jahri Evans.
  12. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You think that the Patriots are stupid enough to downgrade Mankins over a game 3 years ago?
  13. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Thats a good question. I'd like to think that 5/35 is pretty close to the mark. Kraft is very sensitive to the "Pats don't spend /c they are cheap" flap and I think, leaked to the media the team's proposal to LM.

    As we've discussed, the actual terms and struture is an unknown (at least to me)
  14. folamzz

    folamzz Banned

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    The OP is saying mankins should not be upset at 35million over 5 yrs. The patriots can put whatever value they want on a position, the player should also be able to put whatever value he wants on himself. An all-pro OL who played out his rookie contract is worth Evans/Mangold type contract.

    That is the principle mankins is standing on.
  15. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    I don't think the Pat's personnel dept would weigh a single game so heavily on it's overall eval of a player.
  16. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    Your right, how silly of me to assume that they would evaluate him based on in-game performance. I hear that he did well in the swimsuit competition.
  17. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Understood. And the Pats' principal (right or wrong) is that for whatever method of measurement (market, LM's value to team, positional value to team), LM is not worth the dollars that he is seeking.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  18. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Logan, you might be right, but you've made yourself look like a jackass. Git.
  19. The Brandon Five

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    It's just my opinion. Not being an NFL player, coach or scout, I probably don't understand everything that goes into the evaluation of a player, but the way I see it is that an elite guard would not have a bad game when faced with an elite DL. It wasn't about it being one game, it's that he was over-matched in that game by elite talent. Maybe he was hurt?
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Again, you think the team is stupid enough to downgrade Mankins over ONE SINGLE GAME that took place 3 years ago?
  21. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nobody knows what the "principle" is or what "lies" Logan is reacting to. It's all pure speculation. Not that we shouldn't speculate, but imagining a possible scenario then deciding that either side is stupid, scummy, etc. based on our own imaginings is all too easy.
  22. MoLewisrocks

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    According to his agent the offer was never for 5 years $35M. That was likely just the new money in the 6 year proposal that included his RFA season. So it was 6/$38.5M and since his agent said there was also a 7 year proposal that was likely 7/$45M. Total value of a deal is meaningless absent the context of fully guaranteed money. Evans got $19M, Mangold technically got bupkiss... He settled for the new deal rolling guarantees that don't commence until THE NEXT LEAGUE YEAR whenever that may be... Sources claimed that the deal NE offered Mankins included no "funny money" and the requisite bonus and guarantees to make it a top 3 deal, none of which until this year contained any rolling guarantees... Considering they gave Wilfork $18M in signing bonus and guaranteed his first three years salary for a total of $24M FULLY AND TOTALLY GUARANTEED I can't imagine they offered Logan some ****amamie deal that would warrant a total meltdown. Therefore I can only conclude that what got his cowboy panties all in a bunch is that when they said they'd take care of him it didn't mean they thought he was the best interior lineman in the league and would be paid accordingly, and he thought it did. And why they or he would honestly think that is beyond me. Evans just won a ring and his FO believes he is the second most talented and significant player on their team. It's arguable Mankins is even in the top 5 talent or significance wise on this team. Mangold is arguably the best young Center in the NFL and he's only 26 (and he isn't fully guaranteed anything at the moment...). He is one of the core 4 (or 5 if you count the Sanchise, which might be premature) players around which the JETS are hoping to build their superbowl juggernaut. Logan's been to one Superbowl in his first 5 years and he didn't exactly compete for MVP... It was in fact one of his worst performances as a Patriot. Some say that was the result of Neal going down. Well then...perhaps up to now it's been a case of Neal being arguably one of the top 5 talents and players of significance on this team because every time he goes down so goes the OL. He has a couple of rings, too.
  23. IllegalContact

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    by the same token, what are the principles of bob kraft and bill belichik?

    the problem stems from the philosophy of not doing contracts until the last possible moment. the problem with that is that it winds up costing you more.

    maybe if the pats were more open to redoing deals more than a few months ahead of expiration, they would reduce acrimony as well as save some $$ in the process. If the pats extended mankins a year ago, I can bet you they would have had him for the price they are pursuing now.

    when this team was winning superbowls, holding out until the last possible moment made more sense. now, at a time when the notion of hometown discount is a distant memory, the pats front office will have to get more aggressive in keeping the players they wish to keep.

    for an organization who charges more per ticket than any other, you'd figure they would be a bit more aggressive. at least with the guaranteed portion.

    in order to set someone off this way, either the person needs to be full of crap (which up until this event was not a description anyone would have used about mankins while the same cannot be said about the front office)
    or he has a legitimate gripe. at this level of acrimony, it is certainly not about splitting hairs.

    you may want to blame him or even his union, but he has a logical argument as to why HE alone should be the one who pays for the current labor situation. he likely sees the owners position in this as a poor one which makes the situation worse.
  24. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    why do people only discuss the principles of the player?
  25. robertweathers

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    Maybe he was hurt. Who knows.

    What helps your arguement is that a case can be made that with the exception of the 85 Bears, 70s Steelers and maybe late 70s Cowboys lines, the 07 Giants D-line was the greatest pass-rushing d-line of any SB team. That was elite talent. However, with Brady's sore ankle, Neal going down. Faulk getting hurt, Watson and K. Brady prooving to be completely useless in pass protection or not being used to help altogether, the the line's ability to protect Brady was compromised severly. So with that said, it's not a clear-cut mater of fact that in the one on ones, Mankins is not elite.

    Its assumed that in their evaluation of Mankins, the Pats have use 10,000 snaps to determine how good he is and quite possibly their conclusion states that he is an excellent run blocker and ok pass blocker and believe that he is not worth $40m in guarantees. On the flip side, if their eval is "tier 1" on both, than the Pats will let him go because they view other areas as more critial and believe that they can get a player with relative skill for a fraction of the cost.

    As with all the contract issues (Law, Branch, Asante, Sey, etc.)time will tell if their evaluation is accurate.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  26. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Uh maybe because THE PLAYER was the one cited as talking about principle, not the owner.

    That would be my guess.
  27. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We don't. We discuss the team's principles all the time. But in this case, you have a player publicly stating that he's holding out as a matter of principle. Aren't you curious what principle he's referring to?
  28. The Brandon Five

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    And how has he performed in all of the playoff games since then? Let's see there was the Wild Card game this January where they were able to get pressure with three guys and...
  29. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    you blaming him for the ray rice TD run, too? stupidity of the highest level to put the ravens game on mankins. why not also blame the QB who looked like he didn't care that day?
  30. The Brandon Five

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    I get it, the OL has nothing to do with the Ravens pass rush.

    Who said anything about Ray Rice?
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