TripGate Breaks Wide Open: Cimini of ESPN-NY Alleges It Came From The Top

[Rob0729]

Other than the actual tripping, I really think this whole thing has been overblown. That said, I love watching the Jets* on the defensive making this whole thing worse than it would have been if they just shut up. I am convinced the league wants this to go away, but the Jets* are actually starting to make it impossible to do so.

Westoff should have never said what he did. By constantly on the defensive and trying to preserve his reputation, he only casts more suspicion on himself. He figured throwing the Pats into the situation would cause misdirection. It made him look like an idiot.

I also think it is funny that a no name back up player would tell the press that the sideline wall was coached all year. Could you ever see a Patriots player say something like that? Not that the Pats would cover it up, but Belichick would never let his players speak out of school or off script no matter the subject. It tells me that Ryan has no control of his lockerroom that a no named TE who can't even make the active roster on gsmeday can contradict everything the Jets* are trying to put out there that this was an isolated incident and Alosi acted alone. Jeff Cumberland is quickly becoming the Deep Throat of the Jets*.

I am glad that instead of preparing for Steelers, the Jets are in spin mode for Trip Gate. I think it will further cause the downward spiral of the team. I can't see them acting like the Pats post Spygate and circle the wagons and dedicate the rest of the year to one season long "FU" to the league.

*Caught Cheating

 

[nabwong]

I just woke up and thought I made a mistake and stumbled into the jets forum.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

The ultimate cover up would be if Wrecksy and/or Westoff ordered SA to trip the guy.

At that point, all bets are off. I wonder if that's why the guy is suspended vs fired.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Correction: gunners routinely run out of bounds and back onto the field and can legally make a play (tackle the punt returner). The only thing they are prohibited from under the rules is being the first player to touch the ball (illegal touching). So, it is strategically advisable for gunners to get downfield as fast as possible which includes RUNNING OUT OF BOUNDS en route. THAT is why the Green Beans set up the wall of coaches/players along the sideline -- which, in itself, is not illegal IF the line comprises coaches and SUBSTITUTE PLAYERS. In this case, it comprised a coach and players not in uniform and SHOULD HAVE BEEN PENALIZED!!! I also have little doubt that this maneuver came from either Westhoff or Jabba Wrecks.

Good analysis, it's also my understanding that inactive players on the sidelines are supposed to stand behind the white line that is three feet behind where they were standing. That would also have made what they were doing "illegal."

 

[Joker]

Good analysis, it's also my understanding that inactive players on the sidelines are supposed to stand behind the white line that is three feet behind where they were standing. That would also have made what they were doing "illegal."

This has already been covered and Westhof admitted it...the Patriots did it...run along, nothing to see here....

 

[Kontradiction]

I double dare old Roger to strip their 2011 first round pick and fine them 250,000 big ones.

The Precedent is set:

1) Forfeit a First Round Draft Pick
2) Fine the Team & Coaches involved $750,000.

What goes around, comes around.

The only problem with this is...

Spygate didn't have the potential to injure players. Thighgate, on the other hand, had that potential from the start. The officials are there to call penalties on the gunners when they don't get back in bounds in a timely manner. In fact, I believe that one such penalty was called earlier in that same game.

Jobs should be lost for what was done, especially in Roger Goodell's "It's all about safety" NFL. Furthermore, the Jets should face an enormous penalty, if it's found that the original story of a 'rogue' employee acting alone and without authority is not the truth.

Putting on my critical thinker's cap, there isn't any hard evidence as of right now that this was ordered from the top down. It LOOKS mighty suspicious (Ryan watching Carroll the whole time, the special teams coach denying it which would mean that the Jets are not a well-run organization), however the only so-called "proof" that you have of the Jets brass ordering this to happen is an anonymous player in an ESPN article. You'll forgive me if I'm not fully convinced if I'm the NFL. They need more proof than what we have right now before they dock the Jets a first rounder and a sum of money from the Jets.

And I'm saying this as someone that is completely disgusted by the job Goodell has done thus far as well as someone that despises the Jets.

 

[shmessy]

.....Now add on top of it that the Jets brass got it into their heads to deny even seeing the episode, when cameras show Ryan's eyes focused on nothing else throughout the play. Idiots. Everybody knows that it's the coverup that gets you, not the crime. When you start lying, it makes it look like you have a LOT to hide. And the league office does not appreciate being taken for a fool.

Bingo, 'Chick.

The wall was a very minor issue, deserving of punishment, but a very minor kind (except to Mr. Alosi for the knee).

The organizational (from the top-down, i.e. Tannenbaum, Ryan, Westhoff, etc.) deception and obfuscation not to the press (they can lie all they want to the press), but to the LEAGUE OFFICIALS is what turned this small brush fire into a conflagration.

That is the story here. Anything else is just emotional noise.

 

[Joker]

I see...so what you are saying is the Patriots dressed five spies up in Jet uniforms and placed them on the sideline to wreak havoc and assault the other team??..

...uh yes ,Senator...that is exactly right...I never saw those guys before..never heard of them...never saw their faces...never coached them...never even asked for my clipboard back from them...I'm afraid it's the Patriots again ,Senator...

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Three thoughts:

1) Cimini has to be right. There is no way that, even in Rex-world, a low level Assistant Coach would feel that he could decide on his own to engineer the sideline in a way that is against the rules.

2) This is not going away. Highly visible members of the New York news and sports media do not like to be played for fools. The Jets have already exposed to ridicule many of them who went into the tank and wrote articles endorsing the Jets' "Super Bowl Season." Now these same reporters are being exposed to the criticism of their peers in national and other media for buying the explanation that Tannenbaum, Ryan and Westhoff offered. They're pissed off and won't let the story go.

3) This is worth pursuing because, in the final analysis, trying to affect the outcome of a game illegally along the sidelines and trying to injure an opposing player are at least as serious as filming an opponent's defensive signals from the sidelines instead of the press box or the stands.

 

[shmessy]

The only problem with this is...



Putting on my critical thinker's cap, there isn't any hard evidence as of right now that this was ordered from the top down. It LOOKS mighty suspicious (Ryan watching Carroll the whole time, the special teams coach denying it which would mean that the Jets are not a well-run organization), however the only so-called "proof" that you have of the Jets brass ordering this to happen is an anonymous player in an ESPN article. You'll forgive me if I'm not fully convinced if I'm the NFL. They need more proof than what we have right now before they dock the Jets a first rounder and a sum of money from the Jets.

And I'm saying this as someone that is completely disgusted by the job Goodell has done thus far as well as someone that despises the Jets.

I understand, and agree with your premise, but here's the problem with your position. The Jets (from Tannenbaum to Ryan to Westhoff) IMMEDIATELY after the game stated to the media (no big deal) and then to the league officials (BIG deal) that they didn't see the incident, and had no knowledge of it until told about it after the game.

The CBS video CLEARLY shows Ryan 5-7 feet to the left and BEHIND the LOS (line of sight) of the gauntlet. The video clearly shows that Ryan is focused on one thing and one thing ONLY - - Nolan Carroll. His eyes are directly on Carroll and his walks right over to him after the play and stands over him.

The issue at this point (though it could become later) is not whether it was ordered by Ryan, westhoff, etc. The issue is the clear lie that at least Ryan perpetrated when he told the league that he didn't see the incident or notice the gauntlet formation. THAT is the smoking gun. Everything else right now is just conjecture.

If Ryan stated to the league officials that he never saw the incident and had no knowledge of a concerted gauntlet being formed (RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS LINE OF SIGHT), then he abjectly lied to the league and its officials.

I'm sorry, Kontra, but that is a major problem for him right now.

 

[Kontradiction]

I understand, and agree with your premise, but here's the problem with your position. The Jets (from Tannenbaum to Ryan to Westhoff) IMMEDIATELY after the game stated to the media and hen to the league officials that they didn't see the play, and had no knowledge of it until told about it after the game.

The CBS video CLEARLY shows Ryan 5-7 feet to the left and BEHIND the LOS (line of sight) of the gauntlet. The video clearly shows that Ryan is focused on one thing and one thing ONLY - - Nolan Carroll. His eyes are directly on Carroll and his walks right over to him after the play and stands over him.

If Ryan stated to the league officials that he never saw the incident and had no knowledge of a concerted gauntlet being formed (RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS LINE OF SIGHT), then he abjectly lied to the league and its officials.

I'm sorry, Kontra, but that is a major problem for him right now.

If I were in a position of power, the way Goodell is, I'd wait to see if I could accumulate some more evidence other than the head coach's line of sight during a particular play (it's understandable why he'd be watching the gunner, to take the devil's advocate PoV) on special teams before I fined the team $100,000 and a first round draft pick. Doing that now, based on what he has available to him (which, I'm assuming, is the same we have available to us) would only be another huge brainfart by Goodell. Don't get me wrong, I'd point and laugh at the Jets if it happened based on the evidence that the NFL currently has, but it would still be a very bad move that took place without a lot of clear logic being involved.

 

[Hoodie]

"........Coach Rex Ryan and special teams coordinator Mike Westhoff both tried to distance themselves from the controversy, claiming that Alosi acted unilaterally. So they expect us to believe that a strength and conditioning coach, a guy at the bottom of the coaching-staff food chain, was doing something illegal and they knew nothing about it.

Sorry, but that doesn't pass the smell test.

In the everything-is-choreographed world of the NFL, it's hard to believe a strength coach was a solo rogue. One of Alosi's Gang of Five, a rookie tight end named Jeff Cumberland, said good 'ol Sal had been ordering the inactive players to stand that way since the beginning of the season.

And his superiors didn't know about it?

"Where it came from, I have absolutely no idea," Westhoff said with a straight face, refusing to admit he ordered the "Code Red." (Sorry, just some Col. Jessup humor from "A Few Good Men.)........

......And yet the Jets plead ignorance. Right. There's a term for this; it's called institutional knowledge."

This is exactly how I feel about the McDaniels situation in Denver. McDaniels denies and Scarencchia takes the fall.

 

[shmessy]

If I were in a position of power, the way Goodell is, I'd wait to see if I could accumulate some more evidence other than the head coach's line of sight during a particular play (it's understandable why he'd be watching the gunner, to take the devil's advocate PoV) on special teams before I fined the team $100,000 and a first round draft pick. Doing that now, based on what he has available to him (which, I'm assuming, is the same we have available to us) would only be another huge brainfart by Goodell. Don't get me wrong, I'd point and laugh at the Jets if it happened based on the evidence that the NFL currently has, but it would still be a very bad move that took place without a lot of clear logic being involved.

Kontra, I have no problem with Rex watching the gunner. There's nothing wrong with that.

The problem is with him claiming he didn't SEE the gauntlet or what happened to the gunner (thereby lying) to the league officials. The video clearly shows that he DID. How much more obviousness do you need?

 

[Kontradiction]

Kontra, I have no problem with Rex watching the gunner. There's nothing wrong with that.

The problem is with him claiming he didn't SEE the gauntlet or what happened to the gunner (thereby lying) to the league officials. The video clearly shows that he DID. How much more obviousness do you need?

So you're going to dock the Jets a first round pick and a $100,000 fine for saying that he didn't see something that he apparently did?

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

If I were in a position of power, the way Goodell is, I'd wait to see if I could accumulate some more evidence other than the head coach's line of sight during a particular play (it's understandable why he'd be watching the gunner, to take the devil's advocate PoV) on special teams before I fined the team $100,000 and a first round draft pick.

I think you guys are going to be extremely frustrated. The announcement that the league is going to issue a "memo" seems to me to be an indication that the league believes clarification is necessary.

I also think you have to expect that the league has no idea how prevalent this problem is. Without knowing whether ESPN is going to pull out video of dozens of teams doing "human walls" over the past 10 years, if you hammer the Jets, you have a major problem on their hands. I think the league's MO is to put out the memo, say "now you're on notice even if you claim you weren't before," and then enforce it going forward. In this sense, what Westoff did was shrewd. He fired a warning shot to the league -- if you punish us for a human wall you may have a much bigger problem on your hands. I think intentionally or not he's got a good sense of how the league thinks. And if the league thinks clarification is necessary, I doubt it's going to get too much into a debate of who ordered it or didn't -- unless it (the league) was lied to.

I don't think the league gives a rat's a** whether Jets people are lying to the press, unless part of the lie is a league violation. (For example, if Westhoff's comments are deemed to rise to the level of a complaint against another team.) Where the league would care, I think, is if team representatives lied to the league as part of an investigation. For example, if Ryan told the league that he didn't know what was going on, then I would think and hope something would be done about it.

I think you're going to see a memo, a vague statement by the league about how "if more facts come to our attention we will revisit," etc. Meanwhile, though, I expect journalists will stay on the story -- it's too good not to. If the Jets lets Alosi be the fall guy, that's repulsive. I also expect there's a chance that as this guy sits at home without a paycheck unable to get a job, he might turn on the team, and that's where it could get really interesting.

But for those of you dreaming that our 33d pick will turn into a 32d, I would just say don't hold your breath. Not saying right or wrong, but just plan to be incredibly frustrated. In many ways, I'm ok with that -- I think this story will chug along just fine on its own. And seeing the Jets with a distraction is what I care about most. Although, I might note that we ripped off 18 wins after our distraction, and if Rex can turn this into a "it's us against the world" kind of thing, I have some concern we're throwing a raft to a drowning team.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

So you're going to dock the Jets a first round pick and a $100,000 fine for saying that he didn't see something that he apparently did?

And to whom did he say that? Is the league going to start punishing coaches for what they say to the press? Seems like a much much different story if team personnel lies to the league. But did the league even do an investigation here, or did it just let the Jets do it internally?

 

[sieglo]

Ok, but it was the player who was breaking rules by running out of bounds. The dudes were being dinks for standing that close to the line, but they weren't breaking any rules, as far as I can tell. Sal broke a rule (I assume) by kneeing the guy and he's been SEVERELY punished. I think it's over.

This is not true. Only certain personnel are allowed in the area that the Jets had people lined up. And the people they had lined up were NOT those authorized personnel.

 

[Joker]

I have some concern we're throwing a raft to a drowning team.

so is Mike Westhoff, who just stated in a press interview that Jet life rafts are equipped with snack bars and these only have small thumb sized speakers with wires leading north somewhere to a secret listening post in the dunes of Cape Cod.

 

[shmessy]

So you're going to dock the Jets a first round pick and a $100,000 fine for saying that he didn't see something that he apparently did?

I have no idea what the punishment should be. The league has officials who get salaries for making that determination.

Admittedly, I'm a (very) biased party. It would be an opinion exercise for me to conjecture what the penalty should be - - you'll notice I have never said HOW MUCH the penalty should be.

I do believe, however, that lying to league officials deserves a penalty. Do you think the league should give them a free pass for lying to their offiicials?

 

[Kontradiction]

And to whom did he say that?

It's a question posed to shmessy. Hence the question mark at the end of the post.

Is the league going to start punishing coaches for what they say to the press?

I would hope not. That's the case I'm trying to make here... that we can't just go about and punish coaches (even if they're Jets coaches) for things like that. I'll expand on this in my next quote...

Seems like a much much different story if team personnel lies to the league.

Only if you have proof that he's lying to try to cover up an order from the top down that the Jets coaches on the sidelines take out the opposing team's gunner to improve field position. I don't see how Ryan saying that he didn't see it and picture evidence proving that he did constitutes evidence of such a fact. Furthermore, if I were Goodell, I would take that action that was caught on tape and try to build a case based off of it with interviews with the Jets players and coaching staff (Alosi included, since it stands to reason that he's be pissed off over being the fall guy in this whole thing) to try to get the hardcore evidence necessary to prove that the Jets ordered this thing from the top down. If found, THAT'S where I dock the draft pick and levy the fine.

But did the league even do an investigation here, or did it just let the Jets do it internally?

Knowing Roger Goodell, I'd say no, the league probably didn't do any sort of investigation.