The Jets Rebuiding...

[Tunescribe]

Tim Graham disagrees.

"Most talented: Jets. The collection of players crackled at times. Maybe all the "Hard Knocks" cameras are bringing it out, but I saw more highlight-reel plays at SUNY Cortland than anywhere else."

How'd they look? AFC East camp musings - AFC East Blog - ESPN

Heh, he also wrote this HUGE disclaimer:

Most unfocused: Jets. Of all the AFC East camps, the Jets were the least conscientious during my visit. This could be chalked up to the timing. I got to them last, and players had reached that antsy point where they needed a game. But the blithe atmosphere stood out to me nonetheless.

 

[Rexorcism]

Heh, he also wrote this HUGE disclaimer:

Most unfocused: Jets. Of all the AFC East camps, the Jets were the least conscientious during my visit. This could be chalked up to the timing. I got to them last, and players had reached that antsy point where they needed a game. But the blithe atmosphere stood out to me nonetheless.

I'm not arguing that, the conversation was strictly about the most talented group.

I don't know who would expect Belli to not have the most focused camp.

 

[kdels62]

Perhaps you should sit down and take a deep breath, and seriously reassess WHY you are a fan of the Green Beans. The whole Revis fiasco has been terribly mismanaged and your head coach is just as much to blame for it as Tannenbaum. The personnel philosophy of those two with Woody Johnson as idiot enabler has built a house of cards that's already begun teetering. Get out, save yourself now.

It wasn't terribly mismanaged. I think their biggest fault was telling Revis we want to re-sign you. Revis took it to mean you guys are gonna make me the highest paid guy. That wouldn't be a problem if not for the Asomugha deal. My biggest concern is that Revis may really be unwaver on his demands of 16 million per year average and why haven't the Jets re-signed other in the meantime.

If the team can manage to maintain players at a reasonable cost they won't lose anything that can break them and maybe that house of cards stay up. You are right though 1 misstep too many and this team could take steps back in the upcoming years.

 

[Ring 6]

Statistics don't win games that is correct. However, you ask me what I saw in the regular season last year and I told you. Then I presented you with a source to indicate that I wasn't the only one to look at it that way.

It is just wrong to use a stat that is one of hundreds of factors in decding wins and losses to overcome the result of wins and losses.
Here is one. Before last year under BB the Patriots were 66-1 when leading at the start of the4th quarter. Last year they lost 4 of those games. That is something that hardly ever happens, so if something that hardly ever happens is removed the Pats are 14-2. See the flaw in your argument?
YOUR players couldnt tackle Ted Ginn. You deserved to lose.

Next you make it seem that the thought of a head coach getting better as he gains experience is foolish even though thats the nature of pretty much every profession.

I asked you to give examples, you give this.

Then you A) assume that I believe Sanchez is good right now B) Judge a rookie based on 1 season of play. Then you compare him to another quarterback who A) plays a different style B) has a different skill set C) has different work ethics D) was in his 3rd year. Actually Sanchez was on par with most rookie QBs in the last 25 years. Then you say Sanchez is bad because of his skillset which you can believe of course but not without also acknowledging that for most QBs the rookie/ first year starting year is usually an outlier.

Not comprehending so well huh?
I didnt compare him to Russell I said Russell was the only starting QB in the NFL last year worse than Sanchez.
What am I to judge him on other than his skills and his play? Clearly you want to judge him on hope.
How is he 'on a par with most rookies the last 25 years'? You simply made that up.
And no it is not true that most rookie QBs that suck get better. I understand its all you have going for you, and its every Jet fans mantra, but it simply is not accurate that rookie QBs who play that poorly get better more often than not.
You realize that '25 year history' you are talking about makes him more likely to bust than succeed with such a poor rookie year, right?

 

[Ring 6]

It wasn't terribly mismanaged. I think their biggest fault was telling Revis we want to re-sign you. Revis took it to mean you guys are gonna make me the highest paid guy. That wouldn't be a problem if not for the Asomugha deal. My biggest concern is that Revis may really be unwaver on his demands of 16 million per year average and why haven't the Jets re-signed other in the meantime.

If the team can manage to maintain players at a reasonable cost they won't lose anything that can break them and maybe that house of cards stay up. You are right though 1 misstep too many and this team could take steps back in the upcoming years.

How can it not be terribly mismanaged if he isnt there and they found out on the day he was supposed to report that he wasnt going to? They were actually watching the clock to see if he would show up by 5:00.
What is your idea of mismanging a situation? How could it be worse than it is?

Also, Asomuga's deal was in place when the team told him he was the best player in the history of football and they will pay him more.

 

[Ring 6]

I posted a link from a football expert claiming Brick is the best in the league already. That was discredited since it was Brian Baldinger who isn't credible apparently. So should I ask for a list of pre-approved "experts" who may or may not have made a list ranking o-linemen?

Your Baldinger link does not work.
The Bleacher report may as well have been written by a 12 year old.

 

[Rob0729]

It wasn't terribly mismanaged. I think their biggest fault was telling Revis we want to re-sign you. Revis took it to mean you guys are gonna make me the highest paid guy. That wouldn't be a problem if not for the Asomugha deal. My biggest concern is that Revis may really be unwaver on his demands of 16 million per year average and why haven't the Jets re-signed other in the meantime.

If the team can manage to maintain players at a reasonable cost they won't lose anything that can break them and maybe that house of cards stay up. You are right though 1 misstep too many and this team could take steps back in the upcoming years.

From everything I have heard, it is more about the guarantee than the yearly salary (although that plays into it). According multiple reports, the Jets want Revis to take a deal like Ferguson where he gets a pay bump this year, but really doesn't see big time guarantee money until the start of the 2011 season. Greg Bishop from the NY Times says that the last offer to Revis gave him an addition $5 million guaranteed in 2010, but nothing else guaranteed. If this is true, the Jets are seriously mismanaging the negotiations. Forget the average annual salary. Any new deal for Revis should come with far more than $5 million in new guaranteed money.

 

[kdels62]

It is just wrong to use a stat that is one of hundreds of factors in decding wins and losses to overcome the result of wins and losses.
Here is one. Before last year under BB the Patriots were 66-1 when leading at the start of the4th quarter. Last year they lost 4 of those games. That is something that hardly ever happens, so if something that hardly ever happens is removed the Pats are 14-2. See the flaw in your argument?
YOUR players couldnt tackle Ted Ginn. You deserved to lose.


I asked you to give examples, you give this.


Not comprehending so well huh?
I didnt compare him to Russell I said Russell was the only starting QB in the NFL last year worse than Sanchez.
What am I to judge him on other than his skills and his play? Clearly you want to judge him on hope.
How is he 'on a par with most rookies the last 25 years'? You simply made that up.
And no it is not true that most rookie QBs that suck get better. I understand its all you have going for you, and its every Jet fans mantra, but it simply is not accurate that rookie QBs who play that poorly get better more often than not.
You realize that '25 year history' you are talking about makes him more likely to bust than succeed with such a poor rookie year, right?

Really now. You might just be trying to get under my skin or you really really have no grasp of how the league works in general. Stafford was equally ****ty as Sanchez and the guys up in Buffalo were pretty ****ty. Chad Henne had a lower TD per attempt ratio than Sanchez. All of them were at Sanchez's level or worse. But I don't care about them their performances mean nothing to me.

I'm judging Sanchez based on the the fact that he flashed potential and was a rookie last year. Simply put he sucked last year. Most games he was ineffective and on some occasions he was detrimental to the team. He also had gems: Week 1 against the Texans, week 2 against the Pats, Week 5 against the Dolphins, week 8 against the Dolphins. That is the nature of rookie QBs. What is unprecedented is how he performed in the playoffs.

Joe Flacco, a good quarterback by most people's standards has had poor playoff performances.
Postseason stats: 57-120 for 660 and a QB rating of 46.5 and 1 touchdown


Mark Sanchez, an average rookie quarterback (bad quarterback) by most people's standards had decent to good playoff performances displaying clutch playmaking ability.
Postseason stats: 41-68 for 539 and QB rating of 92.7 and 4 TDs

Rookie QBs are not supposed to play well in the playoffs or in the regular season even for that matter. The point is that it is impossible to judge any player especially QBs based on rookie year performances. However, it is reasonable to expect better performances this season. Given precedent What Should We Expect From Mark Sanchez in 2010?, and given his playoff performance.

Do you really want me to present stats showing Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, John Elway, Vinny Testaverde, struggling they're rookie years? Even taking it further Drew Brees struggling his first few years. Will Sanchez be them, maybe if the Jets are lucky? But his performances were the norm rather than the exception.

 

[kdels62]

From everything I have heard, it is more about the guarantee than the yearly salary (although that plays into it). According multiple reports, the Jets want Revis to take a deal like Ferguson where he gets a pay bump this year, but really doesn't see big time guarantee money until the start of the 2011 season. Greg Bishop from the NY Times says that the last offer to Revis gave him an addition $5 million guaranteed in 2010, but nothing else guaranteed. If this is true, the Jets are seriously mismanaging the negotiations. Forget the average annual salary. Any new deal for Revis should come with far more than $5 million in new guaranteed money.

News before the embargo has the Jets claiming the issue is the total compensation and saying they will discuss guarantees at a later date. Meanwhile the agents for Revis say the Jets have no guarantees on the table. So it just seems like a cluster**** of he said she said.
The problem for the Jets with guarantees is that the Jets can't give full guarantees. Because of the CBA they can only give guarantees equivalent to the free cap space they had the year before which for the Jets is all of $200,000. There are ways around it but right now it's hard to tell where negotiations are.

 

[Tunescribe]

It wasn't terribly mismanaged. I think their biggest fault was telling Revis we want to re-sign you. Revis took it to mean you guys are gonna make me the highest paid guy.

The point you're leaving out -- and it's a big one -- is his head coach constantly telling everyone that he's the best cornerback in the league. Wrecks has continued to beat that drum during training camp. For instruction on how these sorts of things should be conducted professionally, I refer you to the Patriots' handling of Logan Mankins.

 

[kdels62]

The point you're leaving out -- and it's a big one -- is his head coach constantly telling everyone that he's the best cornerback in the league. Wrecks has continued to beat that drum during training camp. For instruction on how these sorts of things should be conducted professionally, I refer you to the Patriots' handling of Logan Mankins.

So you're holdout is better than my holdout?

 

[Ring 6]

Really now. You might just be trying to get under my skin or you really really have no grasp of how the league works in general. Stafford was equally ****ty as Sanchez and the guys up in Buffalo were pretty ****ty. Chad Henne had a lower TD per attempt ratio than Sanchez. All of them were at Sanchez's level or worse. But I don't care about them their performances mean nothing to me.

Chad Henne was worse because of a lower TD% are you kidding me.
You do realize that if the Colts tried against you and didnt try against Miami then the Fins had the same record as you with a lesser defense and running game right?

I'm judging Sanchez based on the the fact that he flashed potential and was a rookie last year. Simply put he sucked last year. Most games he was ineffective and on some occasions he was detrimental to the team. He also had gems: Week 1 against the Texans, week 2 against the Pats, Week 5 against the Dolphins, week 8 against the Dolphins. That is the nature of rookie QBs. What is unprecedented is how he performed in the playoffs.

QBs who are generally bad and have a few highlights in a word, suck.

Joe Flacco, a good quarterback by most people's standards has had poor playoff performances.
Postseason stats: 57-120 for 660 and a QB rating of 46.5 and 1 touchdown


Mark Sanchez, an average rookie quarterback (bad quarterback) by most people's standards had decent to good playoff performances displaying clutch playmaking ability.
Postseason stats: 41-68 for 539 and QB rating of 92.7 and 4 TDs

He had a good game against Cincy throwing 15 times.
He was poor against SD
He was poor against Indy

Rookie QBs are not supposed to play well in the playoffs or in the regular season even for that matter. The point is that it is impossible to judge any player especially QBs based on rookie year performances. However, it is reasonable to expect better performances this season. Given precedent What Should We Expect From Mark Sanchez in 2010?, and given his playoff performance.

Based on his playoff performance, I would think that if there is a game where the Jets run at will and get a huge lead and ask him to rarely throw, he will do well, and in competitive games he will play poorly.

Do you really want me to present stats showing Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, John Elway, Vinny Testaverde, struggling they're rookie years? Even taking it further Drew Brees struggling his first few years. Will Sanchez be them, maybe if the Jets are lucky? But his performances were the norm rather than the exception.

Finding examples of good players who had bad rookies years doesnt meet your standard, because you also have to show there werent just as many bad ones. That is my point. Duh, of course good QB were better later in their career than in their rookie year. But the bad ones are bad as rookies, bad as 2nd year guys and on and on.
Jet fans are saying that Sanchez WILL be good, relying simply on rookies get better. No they dont all get better. And the issues with ability that Sanchez has are similar to the MANY failed QBs that you want to pretend didnt exist.

 

[Tunescribe]

So you're holdout is better than my holdout?

Why are you making me explain this? It all comes down to team building and letting players know that no individual is indispensable. Wrecks sends the opposite message and not only has it hurt his team directly on the field, it also has created a huge ongoing distraction. If a player is going to sit out with unreasonable demands, you (A). make the best offer to him you can and tell him so, then (B). if he doesn't accept it, move on and focus on grooming his replacement as if he doesn't exist. By constantly touting Revis as the best in the game Wrecks contributed mightily to creating this monster. By continuing to bemoan his absence, he's sending the wrong message to Revis's teammates, that they NEED him to succeed. Even if that's true (and it probably is), you want your team to believe otherwise -- especially whomever is tapped to take Revis's place.

 

[Rexorcism]

The point you're leaving out -- and it's a big one -- is his head coach constantly telling everyone that he's the best cornerback in the league. Wrecks has continued to beat that drum during training camp. For instruction on how these sorts of things should be conducted professionally, I refer you to the Patriots' handling of Logan Mankins.

Yep the Logan Mankins situation is working out so much better.

 

[kdels62]

Chad Henne was worse because of a lower TD% are you kidding me.
You do realize that if the Colts tried against you and didnt try against Miami then the Fins had the same record as you with a lesser defense and running game right?


QBs who are generally bad and have a few highlights in a word, suck.



He had a good game against Cincy throwing 15 times.
He was poor against SD
He was poor against Indy




Based on his playoff performance, I would think that if there is a game where the Jets run at will and get a huge lead and ask him to rarely throw, he will do well, and in competitive games he will play poorly.


Finding examples of good players who had bad rookies years doesnt meet your standard, because you also have to show there werent just as many bad ones. That is my point. Duh, of course good QB were better later in their career than in their rookie year. But the bad ones are bad as rookies, bad as 2nd year guys and on and on.
Jet fans are saying that Sanchez WILL be good, relying simply on rookies get better. No they dont all get better. And the issues with ability that Sanchez has are similar to the MANY failed QBs that you want to pretend didnt exist.

You're kidding me right. At no point did I say Sanchez was a guaranteed thing to be good. You've said that Sanchez will not be good. I was gonna include examples of bad QBs as well but that wasn't a topic of debate since I never claimed Sanchez was gonna be great. I'm simply pointing out that you are being really narrow sighted and really abrasive with little more than you're condescending tone as an argument. I believe Sanchez is an unknown asset. He flashed potential amid a bad season that is quite honestly expected from all rookie quarterbacks and unless you're premature to judge that is a good starting point for most prospects.

I didn't say Henne was worse I'm saying he wasn't better and if he was it was negligible amount. But then again Henne should be better he was a second year pro and three year starter at Michigan.

What is unprecedented is Sanchez's success in the playoffs. Given he has fewer college starts than any rookie starter ever.

Against the Bengals: 12-15 for 182 and a touchdown with a passer rating of 139.4 isn't spectacular but it's really efficient. Good is the best word for this performance.

Against the Chargers: 12-23 for 100 yards, a td, a pick and a 60.1 passer rating. Mediocre but he threw the go-ahead score and made the passes when needed. Like I said mediocre but he had some clutch plays.

Against the Colts: This is where I wonder if you watched the game. Sanchez was excellent. I was disappointed when the team made it clear they would rather die a slow death with Thomas Jones rather than see if Sanchez could win it. 17-30 for 257, 2 TDs, a pick and a 93.3 passer rating. Never seemed rattled made great professional throws and took shots. Rookie QBs don't perform like that in the playoffs it's unheard of.

So yes Sanchez for the most part sucked last season but he also flashed and in the playoffs was way above average for a rookie QB.

 

[kdels62]

Why are you making me explain this? It all comes down to team building and letting players know that no individual is indispensable. Wrecks sends the opposite message and not only has it hurt his team directly on the field, it also has created a huge ongoing distraction. If a player is going to sit out with unreasonable demands, you (A). make the best offer to him you can and tell him so, then (B). if he doesn't accept it, move on and focus on grooming his replacement as if he doesn't exist. By constantly touting Revis as the best in the game Wrecks contributed mightily to creating this monster. By continuing to bemoan his absence, he's sending the wrong message to Revis's teammates, that they NEED him to succeed. Even if that's true (and it probably is), you want your team to believe otherwise -- especially whomever is tapped to take Revis's place.

But both our teams still have holdouts. You're also acting like if Rex didn't say anything no one would look at Revis as the best defender in football. I agree Rex shouldn't talk about Revis so much but at the same time he's just saying what everyone is thinking. By doing so he's not letting his team doubt what they can do. He'll take the pressure of worrying about Revis on himself and just let the players play. The biggest thing here is that Logan Mankins as good as he is, isn't the consensus best at his position.

On a positive note our rookie CB is looking awesome and it should be fun to have two comparable players playing on the Jets and Pats to see who got the better deal.

 

[Tunescribe]

Yep the Logan Mankins situation is working out so much better.

Certain things are beyond a team's control, one of them being a player acting illogically. It's how you handle the cards you're dealt that differentiates how the Patriots are dealing with Mankins vs. the Green Beans with Revis.

 

[Tunescribe]

But both our teams still have holdouts. You're also acting like if Rex didn't say anything no one would look at Revis as the best defender in football. I agree Rex shouldn't talk about Revis so much but at the same time he's just saying what everyone is thinking. By doing so he's not letting his team doubt what they can do. He'll take the pressure of worrying about Revis on himself and just let the players play. The biggest thing here is that Logan Mankins as good as he is, isn't the consensus best at his position.

On a positive note our rookie CB is looking awesome and it should be fun to have two comparable players playing on the Jets and Pats to see who got the better deal.

Re., the bolded part of your statement: This doesn't make sense. By opening his mouth early and often about Revis, Wrecks CREATED doubt among players that they can win without the guy. It's become a big distraction for the team in general. His chances of getting Revis back would've been much better had he been quiet and focused on developing his replacement(s).

 

[Deus Irae]

So you're holdout is better than my holdout?

Yep the Logan Mankins situation is working out so much better.

1.) The Patriots don't have any holdouts. Mankins is an unsigned free agent, not a player with multiple years left on his contract.

2.) Mankins is an excellent OG, but the Patriots don't scheme the entire offense around him. The Jets, on the other hand, scheme the defense around Revis.

 

[kdels62]

Re., the bolded part of your statement: This doesn't make sense. By opening his mouth early and often about Revis, Wrecks CREATED doubt among players that they can win without the guy. It's become a big distraction for the team in general. His chances of getting Revis back would've been much better had he been quiet and focused on developing his replacement(s).

He's saying what everyone's thinking and also saying that he believes in what this team is capable of without 24.

You said that you're player is being unreasonable so is Revis and right now the Pats and the Jets are in the same boat regardless of how they handled it.