Welcome to PatsFans.com

The Jets Rebuiding...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AzPatsFan, Aug 19, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I grow very weary of all the criticism directed at Belichick and the Patriot's Drafting prowess over the past four years.

    So I decided to see how a really effective Team did building itself into the next powerful, Superbowl club, over that time. The Jets approach is to trade several higher round picks to secure a few premium picks and secure stars. Here are the results.
    ______________________________________________________________

    Jets 2007
    Daryl Revis 01 CB Probowl
    David Harris 02 ILB near Probowl

    And three UDFA made the club. Mike DeVito DE, Robert Turner OT, and J Iihedigbo S. DeVito has a couple of starts and may develop into a starter this year.

    Pats 2007
    Brandon Meriwether 01 S Probowl
    Wes Welker 02 WR trade Probowl
    Randy Moss 04 WR trade Future HOF

    ______________________________________________________________

    Jets 2008
    Vernon Gholston 01 DE BUST!
    Justin Keller 01 TE good starter possible ProBowler
    Dwight Lowery 04 CB nickle back, #4 CB
    Erik Ainge 05 QB 4th string probably cut already

    and three UDFA made the club. Danny Woodhead WR, Ropati Pituitua DE, Kerwin Cummings OLB, None are starters.

    Pats 2008
    Jerod Mayo 01 ILB DROY
    Terence Wheatly 02 CB Inj and disappointment
    Shawn Crable 03 OLB BUST & cut
    Jonathan Whilhite 04 CB sometime starter and 4th nickle back
    Matthew Slater 05 WR/S ST starter

    And two UDFA made the the club BJGE RB, Gary Guyton ILB, Guyton is ILB incumbant starter, BJGE has a couple of 100 yard starts
    ______________________________________________________________

    Jets 2009
    Mark Sanchez 01 QB starter hyped future star
    Shon Greene 03 RB annointed starter
    Matt Slauson 06 OL

    And one UDFA made the club. Jamaal Westermann OLB

    Pats 2009
    Patrick Chung 02 SS annointed starter
    Darius Butler 02 CB starter
    Ron Brace 02 NT
    Sebastian Volmer 02 OT future Probowl LOT
    Brandon Tate 03 WR probable starter
    Ty MacKenzie 03 ILB possible starter
    Rich Ohrnberger 04 G/C
    George Bussey 05 OT
    Jake Ingram 06 LS starter
    Myron Pryor 06 DT !!
    Julian Edelman 07 WR Starter !!!
    Daryl Richards 07 DE

    And one UDFA made the club. Brian Hoyer QB 2nd string and already started 1 game. Future starter here or elsewhere

    _____________________________________________________________

    Jets 2010
    Kyle Wilson 01 CB probable starter and nickle
    Valdimir Ducasse 02 LG annointed starter
    Joe Mcknight 04 RB annointed 3rd down back
    John Connor 05 FB annointed eventual successor to Tony Rchardson when he retires

    Pats 2010
    Devin McCourty 01 CB probable starter and nickle
    Rob Grounkowski 02 TE
    Jermaine Cunningham 02 OLB
    Brandon Spikes 02 ILB already a starter
    Taylor Price 02 WR
    Aaron Hernandez 04 TE
    Zoltan Mesko 05 P already a starter
    Ted Larsen 06 C/G
    Thomas Welch 07 T
    Brandon Deadrick 07 DE
    Kade Wilson 07 DE/NT

    And probably one UDFA will make the club's PS. Dane Fletcher ILB
    ___________________________________________________________
    [sarc on]

    It is really illuminating to see a throughly, professional Team which has mastered the art of drafting, only produce 1 BUST in Top Ten picks, and one starter from its UDFAs. Meanwhile it has produced as many as 8 starters from its past four drafts. They have a possible single starter from their 4 dsicovered UDFAs.

    By comparison, the hopelessly, incompetent Patriots have produced only two ProBowlers and traded picks for only another Probowler; and also another HOF WR. They have only managed to produce 12 confirmed starters, and 8 more probable starters this season, for a total of 20. Meanwhile they have been able to find only three starters from among their 4 discovered UDFAs, over the past four years.

    It is easy to see how the Jets have caught up and surpassed the Patriots in the quality of their roster. Drafting as they have in a better and preferential position every year, and using their picks most wisely.

    [sarc off]

    Bonus Question for All:

    Lets put the press hype and media puffery in its place.

    Who is the Better QB to come from the 2009 college Draft? Mark Sanchez, 6-2 220, USC, 53.8% comp, and 63.0 QBR; or Brian Hoyer 6-2 215, Michigan State, 70.4% comp, and 82.6 QBR ?
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  2. BradyToAmendola

    BradyToAmendola Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Very good and interesting post. But wouldn't it be fair to include the 2006 draft as well, considering in that draft the Jets added 2 of the best offensive linemen in the NFL at their respective positions in Nick Mangold and D'brickshaw Ferguson? As well as Eric Smith who I believe is a starter currently and Leon Washington who was pretty good in his time there.

    I agree for the most part though, our drafts have been just as good if not better than theirs with the exception of the 06 draft.
  3. Patriot 37

    Patriot 37 Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    No Love for Edelman ?
  4. Gunnails

    Gunnails Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,622
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    ============================================================================================================


    How many people outside of Pat fans even know who Hoyer is?

    I know who he is, but I could not pick him out of a line up, is he any good?
  5. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    29,358
    Likes Received:
    46
    Ratings:
    +59 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I think we saw Monday night about the positives and negatives of the Jets' drafting strategy. They try to put all their eggs in one basket (or a few basket) which produces solid (if not Pro Bowl) starters. The problem is that they sacrifice depth and they look incredibly shallow at most positions. The Jets could be in serious trouble if they get a rash of injuries at some positions.

    With the Pats, they have some good starters and far better depth. Over a 16 game season if you are hit with injuries, this is a better way to go.
  6. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,755
    Likes Received:
    52
    Ratings:
    +71 / 3 / -1

    My Jersey:

    He looks fine in practices and exhibition games. Then again, so does Sanchez, but he sucks when it matters.
  7. Elijah

    Elijah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #11 Jersey
    You'd actually be surprised at how good he is, given that he was an UDFA a year ago. He's rather conservative with his passing, though. He doesn't really throw it far, but he doesn't force passes into places where it could likely be picked off. Of course, this is just judging from what I've seen during the Titans, Texans, and preseason Saints games. But one thing is for sure, whether it be good or bad: he's more careful with his passing than Sanchize.
  8. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    29,358
    Likes Received:
    46
    Ratings:
    +59 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    In fairness, I don't think we can compare Sanchez and Hoyer. Hoyer has looked great when he was in, but it is mostly against back ups. Monday night, Sanchez was 8 for 8 against the Giants' back ups and moved the ball down the field. He looked average against the starters, but HOF-like against the back ups. So I think saying Hoyer is better now is a stretch.

    Hoyer could be better, but the only way we will ever find out while he is a Patriot is the last thing we all want to happen. So I will conceed that Sanchez is better until we see otherwise.
  9. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    OOOOOOpps! i'll fix it.
  10. Mangold74

    Mangold74 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    What positions is the depth of the Pats that much better then the Jets?

    I believe in building through the draft, but when the Jets started to rebuild with the 2006 draft they had very little talent on this team across the board.

    They used every possible resource to build this team:
    Draft
    Brick
    Mangold
    Eric Smith
    Brad Smith
    Leon Washington
    Drew Coleman
    Harris
    Revis
    Keller
    Lowery
    Sanchez
    Greene
    Slauson
    Kyle Wilson
    Ducasse
    Connor
    Mcknight

    Trade
    Jenkins
    Braylon
    Santonio
    Cromartie

    Free Agent
    Woody
    Richardson
    Bart Scott
    Calvin Pace
    Pool
    Leonhard
    Tomlinson
    Taylor

    UDFA
    Devito
    Westerman
    Ihedibo


    Holdovers
    Brandon Moore
    Shaun Ellis
    Cotchery

    So while I agree that drafting is the most important aspect of building a team, Mike Tannenbaum has proven that you have to use every possible resource. With the quantity of picks the Pats have had every year they should have more impact players.
  11. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,056
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    If you are going to give the Pats credit for trading picks for Moss and Welker as part the the draft, then you should do the same for the Jets.

    The Jets traded draft picks for Santonio Holmes, Braylon Edwards, Kris Jenkins, Kevin O'Connell and Antonio Cromartie.
  12. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,755
    Likes Received:
    52
    Ratings:
    +71 / 3 / -1

    My Jersey:

    1.) The Patriots have been drafting at the lower end of the drafts. The Jets have been drafting from higher positions.

    2.) The Patriots have traded down to accumulate picks. That increases the chances of finding starting players, based upon percentages, but it also lessens the chances of finding elite talent, also based upon percentages.
  13. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,755
    Likes Received:
    52
    Ratings:
    +71 / 3 / -1

    My Jersey:

    Edwards has been a bust of a trade to date, as has O'Connell. Cromartie just happened, as did Holmes. Jenkins, when healthy, has been a good move.
  14. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    They said the same thing about a reserve QB from USC who never even started in college, name of Matt Cassell... until he started and went 11-5 too. Hoyer's 70.4% and 82.8 QBR was a mite better than fellow 2009 Freshman Sanchize, who went 53.8% and a 63.0 QBR.

    Those latter numbers are only HOF numbers for one guy. A QB who completed just 51% of his passes, and threw 40 more INTs than TDs in his career. Do you really want me to broadcast his ignominious identity, with such sh!tty stats. He too like Sanchize, was a pure publicity hype and media frenzy, from the NY media. :rocker:
  15. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    29,358
    Likes Received:
    46
    Ratings:
    +59 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    The Pats are deeper in the secondary, ILB, RB, WR, d-line (although there are questions with their starters at this point), and possibly o-line. I would say the Jets are better at many of those positions starting, but not with depth. It was quite clear based on how both back ups played in the first preseason game that the Pats seem to be ahead of the Jets by a wide margin in the depth department.

    As for the quantity picks, the Pats haven't had quantity picks until last year. They had seven picks in 2008. They had 9 in 2007, but six were in the sixth and seventh round. They had 10 in 2006, but 5 of them were fifth round or later. With so many late round picks in those years, you look for depth more than "impact players".

    In the last two years, the following players look to be "impact players":

    Pat Chung (starter)
    Sebatian Vollmer (starter)
    Darius Butler (probable starter)
    Brandon Tate (probably starter in a 3 WR set)
    Tyrone McKenzie (role player)
    Jake Ingram (near perfect long snapper)
    Julian Edelman (possible starter)
    Devin McCourty (possible starter)
    Brandon Spikes (starter)
    Rob Gronkowski (probable starter)
    Jermaine Cunningham (possible starter)
    Taylor Price (could be a good role player)
    Aaron Hernandez (possible starter)
    Zoltan Mesko (starting punter)
  16. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,157
    Likes Received:
    14
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Thanks. I needed the laugh.
  17. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    That is a fair response. Why don't you fill in a few more years back, and post it here? i'm too tired of doing the research.

    I predict it wouldn't be much different as i can think of Logan Mankins, Ty Warren and and Laurance Maroney to offset Leon Washington and Nick Mangold and D Brick, off the top of the head.
  18. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,157
    Likes Received:
    14
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    :confused:

    One of these is not like the others.
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,755
    Likes Received:
    52
    Ratings:
    +71 / 3 / -1

    My Jersey:

    We've been through the "D'Bust" thing several times in the past. He's only the 3rd or 4th best LT in his own division. Light is better, Long is better and Vollmer may be better.
  20. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Fair is fair.

    Please post the picks they paid for the likes of Jailbird, Braying, Kris Jenkins, KrOCk, and Pollen mutha.

    Notice that I spelled out Kris Jenkins name as he has no past that merits censure...
  21. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    19,949
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Also, Slausen is now the default LT because Ducasse didn't progress as anticipated.
    Apparently Rex and his DC are less than enamored with their positional backups, either, noting they sucked against the Giants and they likely will be needed this season. Last season depth never really was tested. You're not usually that lucky two seasons in a row.
  22. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Belichick beleives the same thing. It would be interesting to see what trades, vet FA signings, other team UDFA cuts and subsequent pickups produced. Anyone want to do it?
  23. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Not necessarily. After 4-5 years of backing up, he will want to stretch his wings and will play out his option...
  24. Mangold74

    Mangold74 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    What exactly does Brick have to do for you to give him any credit?
  25. Zeus

    Zeus PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    942
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I agree with the general thought here. One addition for 2009 is Myron Pryor, a pretty serviceable player for a 6th round pick.
  26. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    7,093
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You can't rebuild through the draft when you only draft 4 guys each year.
  27. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,157
    Likes Received:
    14
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I'll give him credit for exactly what he is: a serviceable LT.
  28. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I disagree. Belichick knows this is a CAP era even if it's off right now. You cannot build a team of All-stars. You can't afford it. So he doesn't want what he knows he can't keep.

    And you can't even mortgage the future for a year or two of All-stars and winning, before you have to dismantle for the CAP. It has all been tried before, and failed numerous times.

    What you can do is accumulate a Team of fine players with a few near Allstars, and just enough leavening of All-Pros, and a crew of good reserves capable of starting. He plans on wearing out the opposition over the long season of 16 games and as many as four playoff games. Have you ever considered that?

    Why do you think the Patriots get stronger the longer the season is?

    Why are the Patriots so tough in the Playoffs?

    You think in terms of 22 starters. He thinks in terms of about 70 players.

    Belichick plans on a roster of 53 starters, 8 PS guys being groomed, all of whom can be future starters. Another 4 or 5 players who have been injured and are on IR. And a "Shadow Roster" of 5-10 who are a phone call away. Some of the shadow guys actually are brought in in TC, taught the system, so they can be evaluated or scratched; and are sent away to await a phone call.

    By the time the Playoffs roll around, he faces Teams composed of stars and scrubs with lots of holes. He still has 22 starting caliber players and no holes, but probably fewer stars (they might be on IR). No Team ever won the Superbowl with 42 player-games missing due to injury. Belichick did. He is crazy like a Fox.

    As for a comparison of depth.

    The Jets have, or rather had, a good Offensive line. Faneca supposedly got old, so he was shipped off, and a second round draft pick Vladimir Ducasse was given his job at LG. But it turns out that there are two problems. Ducasse from a small school and not a lot of experience playing football, is not ready; and Woody the ex-Pat RT has apparently given in and eaten himself out of a job. The only reserves you have are Slauson, never considered stating material and a 6th round draft pick; and Hunter, a UDFA. Two holes, no answers is a conundrum.

    Compare to the Patriots, who also have a vacancy, or potential vacancy, at LG due to a holdout by Probowl LG Logan Mankins.

    The first substitute was to move 5 year RT starter Nick Kaczur who is losing his job, to LG. It lasted one week and he went down with a bad back and is likely going to IR.

    Insert first reserve 5 year vet G Dan Connelly who has started 5 games last season.
    If he doesn't cut it, we pop the stack and
    Try Ryan Wendell, three year PS trainee; if he doesn't cut it,
    Try one year 4th round draftee Rich Ohrnberger; if he doesn't cut it
    Try 42 game ex-starter Eric Guiacuic; if he doesn't cut it,
    Try 6th round draftee Ted Larsen.
    If he doesn't cut it, get serious.
    Move a spare reserve tackle, try one year 5th round draft pick George Bussey; if he doesn't cut it,
    Insert reserve/starter tackle Mike Levoir.
    Or
    Pay the man.

    Do you start to get the Picture and the difference between the Jets and Patriots ????
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  29. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Outplay Joe Thomas, Jake Long, Matt Light, and then SeBastian Volmer. :)
  30. Captain Cliche

    Captain Cliche Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Robert Kraft mentioned "managing depth" in a recent interview. A key component of the salary cap era.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page