The concussion conundrum

[Frezo]

This link will take you to a site that shows states that have passed legislation regarding concussions among school athletic programs. I didn't know that states were being this pro active. Hopefully it isn't just bluster.

Education Week: Concussion Laws by State

 

[lurker1965]

The whole football-concussion issue had been on my mind a lot in recent months, even before Junior Seau's death. Now, it's front-and-center pretty much constantly. I'm all over the place with thoughts about it.

On one hand, I hate how it's been taking some of the naturally aggressive play away from the NFL game per Goodell-driven legislation. On the other hand, it appears that practically NOTHING will protect players from long-term health problems, and that's scary as hell.

Now we've got extremists calling for even more radical rules changes, ex-players filing suit by the hundreds, guys retiring early, people prohibiting their kids from playing organized football, etc., etc. So what's next? Is pro football ending as we know it, slowly morphing into touch football? Is medical science finally catching up to a sport whose very essence was a mistake to begin with?

I've loved this game since I was a kid, but things seem headed for a crossroads. Or are they? Is an end to the game as we've known it inevitable, or is this just a passing wave of media over-analysis? I wonder if the concussion issue and all the fallout around it has tempered anyone's enthusiasm for the game as a fan. For me, it's been hanging like a little black cloud and I'm waiting for the sun to shine.

One idea getting short shrift is removing the 5 yard chuck rule. We might know it from the "re-emphasis." Before a DB could stop a reception buy jamming a receiver 10 yards from the LOS and throwing off his route and timing: currently the DB has to go for a potentially concussion causing "big hit" to jar the ball lose after the catch.

I'm not saying everything pre-1978 was awesome, but this rule does more concussion harm than good and is easier to change than developing a new helmet. (Not that a new helmet would not be good.)

I think that pro football will become more and more of a purely spectator sport rather than a participatory one. It is too dangerous to be played in backyards and parks with the same rules as exist in the pros, and that is the real bad news for the sport. I think it will still exist and be quite popular, dangerous sports like motor racing, etc. still exists despite the risk to life and limb. But it is going to be more of a thing for people to watch rather than to play.

Pick-up games are already that, if you don't count weird stuff like two hand touch, steady QB and stuff of convenience as football.

People do motor racing. Probably you did when you were younger and stupider. You are in your Dodge Dart and some guy pulls up next to you at a red light in a Ford Pinto and revs his engine and it is on.

 

[lurker1965]

I just realized why Goodell and the NFL are not releasing the "proof" they allegedly have against the banned players in the bounty thing. They are baiting the union to be protecting "the culture of concussions/bounties on 'the head'" so in every lawsuit on concussions they can point at NFLPA as the bad guy.

Oh, if they are already planning on tossing blame the game itself might be screwed, unless they can prove the influence of the evil NFLPA crested under Taglibue but waned under the heroic Goodell.

 

[Betterthanmost]

I know it is not a fact that concussions had anything to do with Seau, but in light of his incident, I will not want my son playing the game. Wife always talk about the dangers of football and I use to use people like Seau to tell her that if you played the game the right way, you will come out ok. Now I am not sure of that stand.

 

[LivinLovin&Breathin_Brady]

All this stuff is just more BS to bring down the giant, which is the NFL.

In every sport, athletes are suffering from one or more concussions. There's shaken baby syndrome and plenty of every day people suffering from concussions and head trauma and surviving without being diagnosed CTE.

It's sad that these dumb doctors don't question or look into the players lifestyle, which could have led to CTE. Snort enough drugs at a young age and of course your brain will rot on the inside. Combine that with the usage of prescription drugs, steriods, HGH, pain-killing shots in the locker room or on the field on a week to week basis (for most with so-called CTE, probably daily basis) and STDs they probably caught from groupies and the brain is probably about had it, by the time they are in their 50s.

Depression can be caused by, loss of the spotlight(just look at TO who was desperate enough to go on Dr.Phil for 5 more seconds of fame), bankruptcy (because most were just pass through school only for their ability to play football and not for education purposes, they no nothing about business) lack of being able to find another job that's gonna pay them.(Egos are too big for McDonalds at this point) and divorce. All these factors can help the brain rot from the inside as well and lead to suicide and some cases.

I haven't even watched ESPN since they started this obsession with CTE and concussions in the NFL and to me it's stupid that they would blame concussions for why players are killing themselves. They have to look at the bigger the picture.

 

[SEA_Pat]

All this stuff is just more BS to bring down the giant, which is the NFL.

Yeah, science. Pffft. Who believes that crap?

EDIT:

I did a quick search and came across a very detailed and interesting article published by the New York State Bar Association's Entertainment, Arts and Sports Law Journal. It's not lightweight reading, but quite well written and comprehensive in its discussion about the state of affairs in terms of the medical research and people involved, the history of the issue within the NFL and the potential liability and legal arguments from each side in a potential lawsuit.

http://www.campbell-trial-lawyers.com/65A57F/assets/files/News/NYSPA (kain).pdf

As you can see from there, there is no longer any dispute about the long-term impacts of concussions even in the view of the NFL! This is from a poster issued by the NFL in July 2010:

The NFL’s new warning, made in the form of a poster, uses the following language in describing illnesses caused by multiple concussions: “[T]raumatic brain injury can cause a wide range of short- or long term changes affecting thinking, sensation, language, or emotions.” These changes may lead to problems with memory and communication, personality changes, as well as depression and the early onset of dementia. Concussions and conditions resulting from repeated brain injury can change your life and your family’s life forever.

The NFL is clearly playing for time knowing that once the evidence reaches a certain statistical point, they're going to court to argue damages. This article provides a quite detailed analysis of the various legal arguments and their strengths and weaknesses. So who knows what the liability will eventually be. But it's obvious that this day will come. And that CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephelopathy) IS a real medical consequence of multiple concussions.

Hence this discussion - what's next? Once this shizzle hits the fan, there are going to be changes.

 

[Tunescribe]

I know it is not a fact that concussions had anything to do with Seau, but in light of his incident, I will not want my son playing the game. Wife always talk about the dangers of football and I use to use people like Seau to tell her that if you played the game the right way, you will come out ok. Now I am not sure of that stand.

Did you play football in school perchance? If your son's school has a good coach and a good program, he should be OK. The lessons to be learned from playing football are incredibly valuable for a young man.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Did you play football in school perchance? If your son's school has a good coach and a good program, he should be OK. The lessons to be learned from playing football are incredibly valuable for a young man.

No I did not, I was not born here and came here for Grad school. I have a body built like a linebacker and know that if I were born here, I would have played. I am 6-4, 255ft all muscle. People see me and they think I surely play football.
It has been my dream to live my dream through my son lol. All I am saying is that, I will no longer influence him to play the game it will all have to been him.

 

[JohninLynn]

Football’s human cost makes one shutter
Pinning blame brings much moral clutter
As fans we have a hand
It’s the game we love, and
Lots of millionaires’ bread and butter

 

[Joker]

Vuudu..if your son is young...take him to a golf pro...THAT is the new sports frontier...huge money...zero contact...the worst that can happen is he idolizes John Daley and eats himself into a cardiac ward

 

[PonyExpress]

The NFL is similar in some respects to a volunteer military. Those who sign up for combat arms are aware that they may suffer injury. That is a fact of combat service. In return for risking their lives they receive adulation and glory from a grateful nation.

There are questions regarding the chain of causation. Some ex-athletes have been troubled post career. Some studies report a correlation between head trauma and degenerative neurology. What about confounding factors that may explain players post-career behavior, such as pre-existing instabilities, steroid abuse, drug abuse, alcoholism etc? 1- R-squared factors statistically have been ignored in the press.

 

[lamafist]

The NFL is similar in some respects to a volunteer military. Those who sign up for combat arms are aware that they may suffer injury. That is a fact of combat service. In return for risking their lives they receive adulation and glory from a grateful nation.

The problem with the analogy, however, is that the military is necessary, and football isn't. Morally speaking, there's a huge difference in allowing someone to put themselves in harm's way for the protection of the nation vs. for its entertainment.

Maybe, though, the NFL could solve the problem by taking a cue from the military, and have the players replaced by drones. (Hey, it worked for Hugh Jackman in Real Steel.)

There are questions regarding the chain of causation. Some ex-athletes have been troubled post career. Some studies report a correlation between head trauma and degenerative neurology. What about confounding factors that may explain players post-career behavior, such as pre-existing instabilities, steroid abuse, drug abuse, alcoholism etc? 1- R-squared factors statistically have been ignored in the press.

There's plenty of compelling medical evidence for the potentially devastating effects of repetitive brain trauma that has nothing to do with ex-athletes. The more data we get on the subject, the uglier the picture it presents. Certainly, in the case of ex-athletes, the other factors you mention could come into play -- and theirs effects would be potentiated by the CTE.

 

[Betterthanmost]

One interesting thing is that, I will be hesitant to let my kid play, but in knowing all the risks, I will joyfully play.
Does it make sense?

 

[PonyExpress]

The problem with the analogy, however, is that the military is necessary, and football isn't. Morally speaking, there's a huge difference in allowing someone to put themselves in harm's way for the protection of the nation vs. for its entertainment.

Maybe, though, the NFL could solve the problem by taking a cue from the military, and have the players replaced by drones. (Hey, it worked for Hugh Jackman in Real Steel.)

There's plenty of compelling medical evidence for the potentially devastating effects of repetitive brain trauma that has nothing to do with ex-athletes. The more data we get on the subject, the uglier the picture it presents. Certainly, in the case of ex-athletes, the other factors you mention could come into play -- and theirs effects would be potentiated by the CTE.

NFL players play a regulated padded game and average life expectancy of participants exceeds that of general American population. It is the spirit of the game which is martial. Some people find that martial quality morally objectionable, either because they are unaware of what "sport" really is at its core, or because they seek to transform the meaning of "sport" into something culturally unrecognizable.

Is there a published sample study of football players proving causation and not merely correlation between football-related concussions and degenerative conditions? Until that study appears the argument is unscientific.

 

[SEA_Pat]

NFL players play a regulated padded game and average life expectancy of participants exceeds that of general American population. It is the spirit of the game which is martial. Some people find that martial quality morally objectionable, either because they are unaware of what "sport" really is at its core, or because they seek to transform the meaning of "sport" into something culturally unrecognizable.

Is there a published sample study of football players proving causation and not merely correlation between football -related concussions and degenerative conditions? Until that study appears the argument is unscientific.

I disagree with your initial statement, lots of well-intentioned people who love football are very concerned about this, including myself.

The second statement is a factor in the legal arguments discussed in the article I referenced above. I assume the unspoken position of the NFL is that they're going to proceed until the statistical evidence is overwhelming while trying to find a solution. However, the SPOKEN position of the NFL is that there is clear and compelling evidence that demonstrates causation, I posted it above.

 

[PonyExpress]

I disagree with your initial statement, lots of well-intentioned people who love football are very concerned about this, including myself.

The second statement is a factor in the legal arguments discussed in the article I referenced above. I assume the unspoken position of the NFL is that they're going to proceed until the statistical evidence is overwhelming while trying to find a solution. However, the SPOKEN position of the NFL is that there is clear and compelling evidence that demonstrates causation, I posted it above.

Your claim to be "well-intentioned" is quite subjective. I have no idea what your intentions are.

As far as the references from the "article" you posted, (from a class-action lawyer publication) there is a single peer-reviewed article referred to whose scientific significance is under dispute, which seems logical based on the extremely small sample it considers.

It is interesting that mike webster recurs as a key figure in these studies, considering he was the most notorious steroid abuser on the Steelers. What factor did that play in his post-career problems? Unmentioned in your article. This is one confounding factor which trial lawyers would prefer be ignored in this discussion. That is because the intention of the article you posted is to lay the groundwork for making money, which is the profession of class action lawyers, not establishing scientific certainty.

 

[SEA_Pat]

Your claim to be "well-intentioned" is quite subjective. I have no idea what your intentions are.

Sure, that's kind of my point. You've stated previously that those who are questioning whether there is any real long-term danger from multiple concussions as a result of playing football are doing so because they don't like the "martial nature" of the game and find it morally objectionable. I am pointing out that I like the martial nature of the game and have no moral objection to it, but I remain concerned that the participants are placing themselves in a hazardous situation beyond the usual injuries that are incurred on the field.

Let me put it another way. I like mixed martial arts, and enjoy a great fight between two trained athletes. While they are often beat up and sometimes injured even quite severely during the fight (broken arms from armbars, for example), they eventually heal and they knew the possible consequences, so I have no issue with this. There's also a ref there to make sure things don't get out of hand. However, if the fight included them being locked in a cage with no referee and only one man is allowed to come out still breathing, yes, I have a problem with that even if the athletes agree to these conditions. It's society, we've kind of moved beyond the Roman amphitheater.

As far as the references from the "article" you posted, (from a class-action lawyer publication) there is a single peer-reviewed article referred to whose scientific significance is under dispute, which seems logical based on the extremely small sample it considers.

It is interesting that mike webster recurs as a key figure in these studies, considering he was the most notorious steroid abuser on the Steelers. What factor did that play in his post-career problems? Unmentioned in your article. This is one confounding factor which trial lawyers would prefer be ignored in this discussion. That is because the intention of the article you posted is to lay the groundwork for making money, which is the profession of class action lawyers, not establishing scientific certainty.

Dude, I am an engineer so I understand science. I also understand scientific certainty. Yes, you're correct, there is not a large enough sample size YET. However, the evidence that has been observed from the existing small sample size is so compelling that the NFL, who stand to be the biggest losers from this moving from hypothesis to proven, are already in agreement that this is a likelihood and are changing their policy accordingly.

You don't watch the first group of human subjects in a scientific experiment start vomiting blood from taking a new medication and say "okay, doesn't look good, but we need to run through five more groups before we can say for sure". The reason is that this is a moral hazard. If it were groups of mice, hey, they're mice. These are people. It works the other way too - when a cancer medication is partially through a trial and it is clear that it is saving the cancer patients, they stop giving the control group placebos because it's unethical to do otherwise. In both cases, you don't wait until you reach the required statistical sample size before taking action.

You're likely correct that the reason the NFL is reacting so quickly and are NOT stonewalling like they were before is that they are trying to gain protection from lawsuits. But this doesn't change the fact that it is the right thing to do. I'd be interested to see if you can find a neurologist who is challenging the quite well-known research findings that have sparked this discussion. The guys working for the NFL aren't.

 

[Joker]

well...I was on the other side of the fence but since I'm a retired engineer , your post has swung me 180 degrees to your side. In fact, I just spotted a whole herd of 10 ton elephants in the room with us...let's see...their names are Sonny Liston and Max Baer and Muhammed Ali and Joe Louis and Punchy McScrambledcranium...there is no scientific reason to allow professional boxing to go as currently practiced...I insist all gloves be made of nerf and only open handed, soft slapping of the shoulder area be permitted....now, I must insist something be done about these men driving 250 mph steel vehicles in perpetual left turns for that NFL=like organization, NASCAR...over!!!!...no more of this insanity...I don't care how reinforced the cage is inside or the headgear's ability to withstand blunt force....it's either Dodge Em' cars with foam rubber bumpers or nothing!!!~ I'm sure all NASCAR fans will agree and continue to support the billion dollar business.

Oh my God...I feel so rejuvenated with this feeling of awesome purpose...what else can I force litigation on to clean up this violent mess of a sporting world we suffer in???

Well, there's total eye protection headgear for ping pong players...that would almost eradicate blindness from errant pongs to the eye area...and NO MORE BEACH VOLLEYBALL!!!!...how many Robert Edwards do we have to lose before we learn our lesson?

Yes sir, I think if we combine all the might and input from the scientific community with that of the legal industry, we can really clean up this unbelievable mess the sports world has devolved into. Imagine...playing basketball on HARD WOOD FLOORS!!??? What the ???? Who thinks THAT is a sane idea???? No, no no and no...from now on we must insist on soft cushiony rubber surfaces with backboards and rims made of NERF like material....stop the insane carnage of ripped up tendons, slashed arms and gashed heads and blindness incurred from these shattering glass backboards....

Holy Cow!!! WE got a lot of work to do people!!! Let's get to work!

Watch out rugby leagues...beware world soccer...you BETTER run horse jockeys...we got your numbers now!!!

 

[Observer]

Paying people to hurt themselves for our entertainment is not nice. Lets stop paying them and if they still want to hurt themselves for fun, its fine.

 

[SEA_Pat]

well...I was on the other side of the fence but since I'm a retired engineer , your post has swung me 180 degrees to your side.

I would hope that whoever was on my side would be better at employing sarcasm than that.

Whether you like it or not, changes are coming. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that football will become boring. There's lots of great contact and action in sports like rugby, which I postulated might be the model for how changes occur when this particular pile of poop really hits the fan.