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The concussion conundrum


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There's lots of great contact and action in sports like rugby, which I postulated might be the model for how changes occur when this particular pile of poop really hits the fan.

Rugby????...that's your paradigm shift?????...let's take a cursory Google Image glance at your "suggestion"...

92433d1252874950-cauliflower-ear-61214.jpg


heh..yeah, I'll bet NFL players are gonna line up in droves to sign on for THAT look.."Progress!!!!"

james_thompson_1.jpg


Uh...sorry Coach Belichick...I couldn't hear the snap count...hey...where are all the fans going??????................

rugby_eye_gouge.jpg


Here we see Collie Flowers using the ol' tried and true eye gouge rugby technique....

I could go on but I'm getting sick looking at all these uber violent rugby shots...good suggestion, though SeaPat....I'm sure YOU will watch the NFL if it becomes rugby-ized...count me out.
 
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Rugby????...that's your paradigm shift?????...

I could go on but I'm getting sick looking at all these uber violent rugby shots...good suggestion, though SeaPat....I'm sure YOU will watch the NFL if it becomes rugby-ized...count me out.

Look, I'm not the one who is doing the concussion studies and I'm not the one who will change the rules of football. You're clearly angry and upset about it, but shooting the messenger is hardly a rational response.

I didn't, by the way, suggest that the NFL would suddenly take up rugby. I suggested that one of the possible solutions would be to remove the helmet and otherwise reduce the padding players are wearing such that they stop launching themselves at high speed at each other.

And as far as sports go, I would reckon that if you watched a high level rugby game you'd probably like it if you're a fan of the NFL. The Tri-nations, Six Nations and Rugby World Cup are among the best events of the year from my point of view. Especially as I am stuck in a world filled with bloody soccer.
 
It's an interesting theory...the level of protection does give you an air of invincibility. Everyone who has played is guilty of that same feeling...myself included. Some pay for it whilst others don't. I was hurt on the cleanest hit you could have imagined...one post concussion syndrome and an epilepsy diagnosis later and I can't play any form of contact sports. There is a need for these rules but there is no need to start thinking way out of the box. These injuries will happen regardless.

But the safety talk is going over the top. I agree with the rules being put ion place, I just haven't agreed with how they've been interpreted on the field by the officials. Goodell was asked about this prior to the Super Bowl and he said 'bare with us, it's a work in progress'. It's the same in any sport with any change in rules...interpretation is often inconsistent and bad at first but with time it gets better.

Don't be too angry with rule changes. They won't spoil the game once players are taught the proper ways to hit and the officials have had time to learn and adjust... they haven't spoiled rugby who have limitations on how you can hit. As fans, I don't even think some of you have a clue how dangerous this sport is even at the minutest of levels like over here in the UK. Some players who relish contact and aggressive play may whine, but I'm a walking example of why rule changes need to be there...my life style is drastically different to what it was.

What angers me more is the number of college players I watch who can't tackle. As a fan I'm not too bother about a blistering shoulder hit as long as the player I'm rooting for wraps up properly and stops the guy! College coaches have to do a better job of teaching these young guys how to tackle properly. Once it filters through from the NCAA and into the NFL, things will be fine.
 
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Totally "hit" on a pet peeve of mine. When I was a little kid learning to tackle meant watching the belly cuz it can't fake, wrapping up, and hitting at mid-body or lower when at all possible (or sliding down thereto, wrap-up in tact,) because ball carriers run with their legs, not their upper bodies or heads... A lot of the highlight reel hits we see would mean you got yelled at, not because it's dangerous, but because you had a better shot at a sure stop and you did it "wrong." Of course, that's applying fundamentals to "artists" who are way past fundamentals, sort of like telling Faulkner he writes run-on sentences or telling Hemingway he writes fragments.

Here's a rule-change suggestion, if you really want to get serious: the reverse-bounty, eye-for-an-eye system. You can rule some injuries incidental to the hit, but if it's determined that the vicious hit caused the injury, you get the book thrown at you.

You injure the player by virtue of a hit, clean or dirty, you're out of the game until he's back in the game, be it a quarter or a season. Automatic fine during that period of 50% of game check, to go to an NFL Players' Medical Fund.

You'd be halfway to two-hand touch real fast.
 
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Totally "hit" on a pet peeve of mine. When I was a little kid learning to tackle meant watching the belly cuz it can't fake, wrapping up, and hitting at mid-body or lower when at all possible (or sliding down thereto, wrap-up in tact,) because ball carriers run with their legs, not their upper bodies or heads... A lot of the highlight reel hits we see would mean you got yelled at, not because it's dangerous, but because you had a better shot at a sure stop and you did it "wrong." Of course, that's applying fundamentals to "artists" who are way past fundamentals, sort of like telling Faulkner he writes run-on sentences or telling Hemingway he writes fragments.

Here's a rule-change suggestion, if you really want to get serious: the reverse-bounty, eye-for-an-eye system. You can rule some injuries incidental to the hit, but if it's determined that the vicious hit caused the injury, you get the book thrown at you.

You injure the player by virtue of a hit, clean or dirty, you're out of the game until he's back in the game, be it a quarter or a season. Automatic fine during that period of 50% of game check, to go to an NFL Players' Medical Fund.

You'd be halfway to two-hand touch real fast.

Best response I've seen on this whole thread.

As a coach I teach exactly what you say...there should never be an excuse for hitting someone in the head because you should never be that high anyway. If you are, you're doing it WRONG.

I was a fan once who loved seeing the crunching high hits...until someone did it to me and it knocked me out of the game and changed my life dramatically. You can hit around the waist and make someone go 'oooo' and people cringe! It doesn't have to be chest upwards for it to be a great hit. 'Fans' would do well to remember that.

I would seriously recommend any American football fan watch rugby league and then tell me Goodell is wrecking the sport. It's controlled by a lot of rule that the players abide by and adapt to.
 
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Unless they can change the culture, and they are being forced to from the top down because the bottom up is full of morons who don't want to because they have plans B and C in the works - file bankrupcy and join the concussion lawsuit because whatever happens to you post football it's the league's fault.

Report: Jamal Lewis declares bankruptcy | ProFootballTalk

Not getting much sympathy in the comments section for his bancrupcy or concussion filings. Poignant and timely response though halfway down the page on this Memorial Day Weekend. P've taken the liberty of redacting a couple of his political comments so as not to derail the discussion.

marvinlewismiracleworker says:
May 27, 2012 9:18 AM
It’s really hard to feel bad for any of these goons Florio. Especially one that did time for coke dealing as a player, and still made more in one year than I will ever make in my lifetime.

I’m a vet who put himself through college and grad school and won’t make 14 mil my whole life. I’ve had my bell rung from playing football, boxing, and rugby, on top of military service. I don’t cry about how my rebuilt knees and herniated disks hurt when I wake up in the mornings or how some former employer should take care of me now. I don’t whine about my shifting moods or bouts of PTSD.

I’m tired of hearing about these players that make millions, break the law, avoid their taxes, register to live in Florida to not pay state income taxes, then file for workers comp/unemployment in California after their sorry butts get cut as they get older. Welcome to REAL LIFE nancy boys. Time to put your big boy pants on, clean the sand out of your sensitive areas, stop committing crimes you won’t get away with anymore (Jamal Lewis, Ray Lewis, Mike Vick, Travis Henry, Jerome Simpson), stop inseminating every woman that will spread’em for you (TO, Travis Henry, Antonio Cromartie, Santonio Holmes, Janoris Jenkins, on and on), and get to work at a real job after you’re done playing a game. Jeez, the only one I feel sorry for is Plaxico Burress who went to jail for exercising his 2nd amendment right, but just couldn’t find a decent holster for his firearm.

On a holiday weekend, where I’m thinking of buddies I’ll never see or hear from again. I’m tired of these pity party stories about these pieces of human excrement who blow through more money than I’ll ever have. Sickening. No wonder people don’t want to go to games and keep paying these goon’s salaries. Perhaps that’s why Goodell works so hard to protect the NFL shield brand: to keep the money flowing to idiots who don’t deserve it.
 
I would hope that whoever was on my side would be better at employing sarcasm than that.

Whether you like it or not, changes are coming. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that football will become boring. There's lots of great contact and action in sports like rugby, which I postulated might be the model for how changes occur when this particular pile of poop really hits the fan.

Concussions become problematic, and...

Pats draft Nate Ebner.

Coincidence?
 
Anyone here ever watch Australian Rules football? Now that's one tough sport. I wonder what the injury factors are like in that game.
 
I went to Australia in 93 for two weeks...stayed3 4 and 1/2 months. Best experience of my life. Been to New Zealand and Indochina. I've seen Rugby Union, Rugby League and Aussie rules live...I grew to really like it while I was down under, given the fact it was pretty hard to find the NFL televised anywhere back then.

That being said, for me, I want no part of a cross pollination between rugby and NFL football.

I'm all for equipment improvements and the attempt to eliminate head shots and knee/ankle takeouts. The league has already legislated this into their rules.

A vicious legal hit that takes a ball carrier down hard is at the core of the game. Concussion possibilities always exist...let me state this again...that possibility is ALWAYS there. You sign on to play NFL football, you know the risks. You also know the rewards. It's YOUR choice.A fireman knows he can get burnt up in a conflagration. A cop knows he can get shot on the job.When you begin to open a can of worms like trying to litigate concussions, where does it end? What part of any profession will remain exempt from lawsuits?

This is a demand/supply economy we live in. You let the lawyers at this issue and transmute the game of football, I guarantee the demand will drop. How much is anyone's guess ,but from reading the messages here it would seem a good 50% have no problem with this fork in the road. I do.
 
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As a coach I teach exactly what you say...there should never be an excuse for hitting someone in the head because you should never be that high anyway. If you are, you're doing it WRONG.

This point is well made and certainly relevant, but...

Unfortunately, in the research being done on the concussions, one of the issues is that when linemen meet at the snap of the ball, the G forces on the head when the big boys clash are very high. It's believed that the hundreds of contacts that happen like this are part of if not the major cause of the problem. I don't know how you would be able to change this aspect of the game while maintaining the core essence of football as I don't believe you could change or referee technique to avoid this clash of heads.
 
Anyone here ever watch Australian Rules football? Now that's one tough sport. I wonder what the injury factors are like in that game.

We get this on the TV too, it's fun to watch. But I would put the level of contact well below that of Rugby and Rugby League, and quantum levels below that of football. The only time where there's serious contact is when guys are leaping up to get balls in the air and end up getting creamed by other guys doing the same thing. You seldom see players get carried off the field in the games I've watched.
 
I went to Australia in 93 for two weeks...stayed3 4 and 1/2 months. Best experience of my life. Been to New Zealand and Indochina. I've seen Rugby Union, Rugby League and Aussie rules live...I grew to really like it while I was down under, given the fact it was pretty hard to find the NFL televised anywhere back then.

That being said, for me, I want no part of a cross pollination between rugby and NFL football.

I'm all for equipment improvements and the attempt to eliminate head shots and knee/ankle takeouts. The league has already legislated this into their rules.

A vicious legal hit that takes a ball carrier down hard is at the core of the game. Concussion possibilities always exist...let me state this again...that possibility is ALWAYS there. You sign on to play NFL football, you know the risks. You also know the rewards. It's YOUR choice.A fireman knows he can get burnt up in a conflagration. A cop knows he can get shot on the job.When you begin to open a can of worms like trying to litigate concussions, where does it end? What part of any profession will remain exempt from lawsuits?

This is a demand/supply economy we live in. You let the lawyers at this issue and transmute the game of football, I guarantee the demand will drop. How much is anyone's guess ,but from reading the messages here it would seem a good 50% have no problem with this fork in the road. I do.

Cool, always happy to hear of when other Patriot fans come over to our part of the world. I've had several great conversations with travelers who turned out to be fans about the team over the years.

As far as I understand it, you can't prevent lawyers from filing lawsuits. I don't want football to change either, but on the other hand, if the evidence demonstrates that the risk of these kind of long-term injuries that completely destroy a person's post-football life is very high, then something must be done. I hope they're able to figure out a solution that doesn't change the game fundamentally also. But if they can't, I'm afraid that it will have to happen. I believe you can still have a compelling game even if you make some significant changes.
 
Make equipment that won't cause injuries.

Make equipment that will prevent injuries.



Overly simplistic?

Maybe ... maybe not.
 
Cool, always happy to hear of when other Patriot fans come over to our part of the world. I've had several great conversations with travelers who turned out to be fans about the team over the years.

As far as I understand it, you can't prevent lawyers from filing lawsuits. I don't want football to change either, but on the other hand, if the evidence demonstrates that the risk of these kind of long-term injuries that completely destroy a person's post-football life is very high, then something must be done. I hope they're able to figure out a solution that doesn't change the game fundamentally also. But if they can't, I'm afraid that it will have to happen. I believe you can still have a compelling game even if you make some significant changes.

That's the $6 million question: HOW the game might possibly change because of this.

There has been a lot of good discussion in this thread. One point raised that intrigues me (but I doubt anything can/will be done about it) is addressing the means by how players become artificially bigger and stronger. I imagine that if pharmaceuticals (steroids/HGH, etc.) were removed from the equation entirely, the game would become safer by default. If the league could somehow get a firm grip on that problem, rules changes wouldn't necessarily be a front-burner consideration for player safety.
 
Perhaps those of you here who are familiar with rugby rules can address this...

Many people here (and elsewhere) take the "be like rugby -- ditch the helmets, etc.".

I've read a response to this that makes a lot of sense if the underlying assumption is true. But I don't know if it is true, hence the question.

The counter is along the lines of:

"It still wouldn't work. In rugby it's getting the ballcarrier down that matters, not such much how many yards he may drag the tackler before he goes down. So in rugby there's no need to go for the 'stop the guy dead in his tracks' shot. By contrast, in football yards matter immensely and so there is great incentive to deliver a 'stop the guy dead in his tracks' shot. If you took away helmets, either defenders would injure themselves more trying to deliver such shots or you'd have to change the rules of football to make yardage not matter as much."

Like I said, I don't know enough about rugby to know if the yards-don't-really-matter-much thing is true or not.
 
Perhaps those of you here who are familiar with rugby rules can address this...

Many people here (and elsewhere) take the "be like rugby -- ditch the helmets, etc.".

I've read a response to this that makes a lot of sense if the underlying assumption is true. But I don't know if it is true, hence the question.

The counter is along the lines of:

"It still wouldn't work. In rugby it's getting the ballcarrier down that matters, not such much how many yards he may drag the tackler before he goes down. So in rugby there's no need to go for the 'stop the guy dead in his tracks' shot. By contrast, in football yards matter immensely and so there is great incentive to deliver a 'stop the guy dead in his tracks' shot. If you took away helmets, either defenders would injure themselves more trying to deliver such shots or you'd have to change the rules of football to make yardage not matter as much."

Like I said, I don't know enough about rugby to know if the yards-don't-really-matter-much thing is true or not.

I think the biggest difference is that the passing game in football puts more players out in open space where collisions come from different angles of pursuit.
 
The biggest difference is you have 11 world class athletes versus 11 world class athletes, most with tremendous speed and launching power , colliding at the apex of their force...their body mass x world class acceleration....things will bruise and break...this is a given...and basically this is my point, if you infringe on the class of athlete that plays in the NFL, if you outlaw weight training and supplements, you'll end up with a game played by guys like ME...a ham and egger. I am NOT paying DIRECTV, the Patriots,or anybody else to see "regular guy" NFL football.

I get a certain satisfaction knowing I'm watching the BEST that live play the hardest hitting, most exciting sport since Spartacus. You give me Christians vs. Lions and I'm out...sorry..may as well watch friggin' pro lacrosse.
 
The biggest difference is you have 11 world class athletes versus 11 world class athletes, most with tremendous speed and launching power , colliding at the apex of their force...their body mass x world class acceleration....things will bruise and break...this is a given...and basically this is my point, if you infringe on the class of athlete that plays in the NFL, if you outlaw weight training and supplements, you'll end up with a game played by guys like ME...a ham and egger. I am NOT paying DIRECTV, the Patriots,or anybody else to see "regular guy" NFL football.

I get a certain satisfaction knowing I'm watching the BEST that live play the hardest hitting, most exciting sport since Spartacus. You give me Christians vs. Lions and I'm out...sorry..may as well watch friggin' pro lacrosse.

What about taking pharmaceuticals out of the equation? I'll bet if this received proper emphasis, linemen would be back down to 260-280 lbs. max, linebackers would be back down to 225-240 lbs., etc., etc. Even with the most scientifically applied NATURAL dietary supplements and weight training, I highly doubt that many players can hold 310 lbs-plus without drugs, which now seems "standard" among linemen. Pressure to compete and succeed drives players to extremes like this.

I always thought Ted Johnson was one unfortunate example of a pharmaceutically enhanced body. He suffered some tell-tale connective tissue injuries (I believe he blew biceps tendons in both arms). He had no neck. Sure, he probably suffered too many concussions, but I'll bet his post-football problems go beyond that.

Like I suggested, I think the league might be looking in the wrong place to preserve the game and its players.
 
This point is well made and certainly relevant, but...

Unfortunately, in the research being done on the concussions, one of the issues is that when linemen meet at the snap of the ball, the G forces on the head when the big boys clash are very high. It's believed that the hundreds of contacts that happen like this are part of if not the major cause of the problem. I don't know how you would be able to change this aspect of the game while maintaining the core essence of football as I don't believe you could change or referee technique to avoid this clash of heads.

You're spot on and you can't stop this. Even in Rugby, without equipment, there are issues with concussions. The reason they are slightly more under control is the rules enforced in the sport.

Equipment is needed, even if it does make players feel more invincible than they should feel. Even if you manage to get players tackling properly and cleanly, there is still going to be the issue of the linemen and the forces they put themselves through and there will still be concussions on would be tacklers and ball carriers. It's the nature of the sport and the player does have to take some responsibility when it comes to playing it. As I mentioned, I was hit cleanly and got hurt badly...it happens...it's the way of the sport. Whilst I welcome the rule changes, I accepted that I could get hurt badly when I started playing and when it happened I picked my head up and moved on.

In essence, I like what the NFL is doing. They are aiming on restricting where you can hit and hope that the coaching filters through...which it should have done anyway. I don't know any coach that doesn't teach how to hit and wrap properly so you need to clamp down on players who hit the wrong way with these rules and force them to do it the right way.

The aim is that by clamping down, they force players to tackle the way we've always wanted them too. NO coach ever wants to see a player hitting above the wast line anyway.

Perhaps those of you here who are familiar with rugby rules can address this...

Many people here (and elsewhere) take the "be like rugby -- ditch the helmets, etc.".

I've read a response to this that makes a lot of sense if the underlying assumption is true. But I don't know if it is true, hence the question.

The counter is along the lines of:

"It still wouldn't work. In rugby it's getting the ballcarrier down that matters, not such much how many yards he may drag the tackler before he goes down. So in rugby there's no need to go for the 'stop the guy dead in his tracks' shot. By contrast, in football yards matter immensely and so there is great incentive to deliver a 'stop the guy dead in his tracks' shot. If you took away helmets, either defenders would injure themselves more trying to deliver such shots or you'd have to change the rules of football to make yardage not matter as much."

Like I said, I don't know enough about rugby to know if the yards-don't-really-matter-much thing is true or not.

In theory, the lower you get, the more leverage you have and American Football is all about leverage and getting lower than the guy opposite you.

Yardage is not statistically measured in rugby, but when it comes to goal line defense, it's as important to make sure you stop a guy dead in his tracks as in any sport of its type.

I've always said the way rugby players tackle is more efficient than that of American football. Having lived in the north of England where Rugby League is a way of life, I got to watch a lot of it and I have always said the NFL should emulate it.

I rarely ever see a rugby player with the ball falling forward...EVER. Therefore for me that just enforces exactly what I have always thought...rugby players are better tackler than American footballers.

I played for 5 years and the best tackler I ever saw over here was a guy who played rugby. He aimed for the waist, wrapped up, grabbed jersey and churned his feet harder than anyone I ever saw...got his arm under the guys leg and lifted it from under him to help if need be. That's how you tackle and IMO it's more effective in preventing yardage than any form of high force shoulder hits NFL players like to do...it's more successful and much more efficient.

At worst, if you do it the right way, you stop him with forward progress or you hold him up in time for your team mates to help you...


I think the biggest difference is that the passing game in football puts more players out in open space where collisions come from different angles of pursuit.

I would say there's a tiny bit of difference, but the same theory and technique is applied in rugby. If you're coming from an angle, you do a similar thing. Just make sure you take the right angle, get your head in front of his body and use the opposite shoulder to the side of the field you are chasing. Wrap up and secure the ball carrier and keep your feet moving.
 
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IOW, Rugby players tackle like American football players are basically supposed to tackle in the first place (but a lot of us have said that)...

But ask yourself this: did Rugby ever have a segment on a national network called "Jacked Up"?

Like I said... in youth league at least, the coach would see one of those high on the body, shoulder-pad only hits, and say "That's great 93... run a lap..."

Of course, you could make a "below the numbers" rule... but people would just launch themselves at each others' knees... that's why I favor the "hey, same rules... but you injure someone you sit. You injure him forever, you sit forever" rule.
 
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