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T.J. Moe thread


I agree that 37 catches in 2012 for #3 and #4 receivers is a low bar. HOWEVER, this isn't whole story. #1 and #2 totaled 192 receptions. Woodhead had 40. These bars are much higher. I would expect/hope for much more from the #3 this year.

The fact that he got a lot of reps as you say, speaks volumes to how insanely ineffective Branch was this past season with his 16 total catches.

Hopefully we'll get better production from both of our WR3 and WR4, although as tony points out--the WR4 likely isn't going to contribute much unless of injury. Even then, the bar was set pretty low with:

WR3 Edelman 21 catches

WR4 Branch 16 catches

I think our WR4 (whoever that is) ends up with more than 16 catches this yr for sure, no matter what the circumstances are.
 
This is nonsense. Teams were interested in Moe being part of their 90 man squad. That is not the same as wanting him for their 53 man squad in place of those who have been in camp and have won positions. It is rare for any 5th rounder or later rookie not to make the Practice Squad.

Once again, as I mentioned earlier in this thread............we'll see. I'll be happy to eat humble pie in 4 months if I'm wrong but I think I'm right. Time will tell. Looking forward to revisiting this thread in a few months. Of course, at the rate it's going, it will still be an active thread on page 1. :)
 
OK, let me be more clear. Please list all the UDFA's that have been cut in the final cuts that were picked up by other teams. This is extremely rare. So, sure, we Moe could be cut in the final cuts and picked up by someone else. However, this is very unlikely.

Moe certainly has a chance to make the 53, competing for the likely mythical 5th WR roster spot. If you believe that he will beat out Amendola, Dobson, Boyce or Edelman, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And yes, perhaps Moe is so much better than the other 7 receivers that he will show the team that they cannot have a 53 man squad without him.

And yes, we will discuss the #5 WR spot at least until the first couple of weeks of the season. I think that Branch joined the team for Game 3 last year, replacing Josh's binkie.

Once again, as I mentioned earlier in this thread............we'll see. I'll be happy to eat humble pie in 4 months if I'm wrong but I think I'm right. Time will tell. Looking forward to revisiting this thread in a few months. Of course, at the rate it's going, it will still be an active thread on page 1. :)
 
OK, let me be more clear. Please list all the UDFA's that have been cut in the final cuts that were picked up by other teams. This is extremely rare. So, sure, we Moe could be cut in the final cuts and picked up by someone else. However, this is very unlikely.

Moe certainly has a chance to make the 53, competing for the likely mythical 5th WR roster spot. If you believe that he will beat out Amendola, Dobson, Boyce or Edelman, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And yes, perhaps Moe is so much better than the other 7 receivers that he will show the team that they cannot have a 53 man squad without him.

And yes, we will discuss the #5 WR spot at least until the first couple of weeks of the season. I think that Branch joined the team for Game 3 last year, replacing Josh's binkie.

WOW, ok let me be more clear. Here is what I am stating:
I think TJ Moe has a legitmate shot at making the 53 man roster. I have no idea how many WR's we will carry so therefore, I don't know who exactly he will have to beat out. I also believe, if he is cut, he will not make it to waivers. That's all. We'll see what happens late Aug / early Sept.
 
In my humble opinion, you couldn't be more wrong. First off, as mentioned, he is not that "short". He's 5'11 and 204lbs. If he does not make the 53 man roster, which I think he has a decent shot it, there is NO WAY he makes it through waivers to the practice squad. There were multiple teams interested in signing him after the draft as evidenced by his guaranteed money ($30,000). If he is cut, he will be claimed on waivers.

I'll give you that i thought i remembered his height listed somewhere as 5' 9 and didnt dbl-chk. mea culpa. He is still less than 6' in an era where all are looking for the 6'2+ wr.

Ok, My POINT - WAS DRAFT ---- Rd 7 = 48 PICKS, by my last count there are only 32 teams in the league. without re-reading the team list that means essentially that all 32 got a shot at him and half got 2 SHOTS in ROUND 7 and said - NO THANKS. that some other teams may be willing to sign up for some FREE CHICKEN after the draft means little about hsi prospects to MAKE those other teams. Pats I believe have consistenly had the highest ratio of UDFAs on final roster - and still isnt that many.
 
I agree that 37 catches in 2012 for #3 and #4 receivers is a low bar. HOWEVER, this isn't whole story. #1 and #2 totaled 192 receptions. Woodhead had 40. These bars are much higher. I would expect/hope for much more from the #3 this year.

I tend to look at the WR position as a whole, players 1-5--much like I do the CB position. That is why I am not concerned. You, on the other hand tend to look at trying to replace individual performances. In my opinion as long as the depth and talent of the positional grouping is potentially improved down the line, we are always in position to compete at a high rate.

Our RB's have consistently received catches in the rate between 55-70 in the Belichick era, with the exception of the 2011 season with BJGE. That makes me not worry about losing Woodhead's 40 catches nearly as much. History points to replacing that aspect just fine, maybe not all in one player, but as a RB corps altogether.

I also see Amendola/Edelman/Moe (whomever) continuing to receive the quick timing passes off of the LOS, so again...I'm not nearly as worried about the loss of Welker either. Much like Woodhead, we may not necessarily see one player take over the full bulk of the numeric production, but the purpose of the quick timing routes/short offensive attack will continue to go through someone. The offense is just designed that way. It may be lessened, but it's not going to full-out change. Welker had what, 174 looks last season? If Amendola receives 140 looks, are we not to assume that he'll be a very key contributor?

It all comes down to trying to replace Llyod's production then, and although he may have been consistent in being "okay," he also had many glaring weaknesses like failure to beat man coverage + a lack of speed and any contribution with YAC's. His 50% catch rate also wasn't exactly something to write home about. Any WR in the NFL level should be able to catch 50% of their looks, especially the higher percentage passes thrown in this offense.

Once again, even if we don't have one player who produces 74 catches as Llyod did, that doesn't mean that the WR2 position won't be improved in terms of speed, stretching the defense a bit, and drawing attention from the opposing safety at times. Our shorter pass completion rate was exceptional last year--once again. It was the longer sideline and longer middle passes that were outright pathetic completion rates, and much of that can be attributed to Brandon Llyod's weaknesses. All of those traits needed to be improved on this offense, as these were the weakness that kept us from moving forward. If Belichick did not address changes in the WR position, I'd have thought he lost his mind....
 
I think Moe will give the Gost a run for his money during training camp...
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I view the situations much, much differently than you do.

CORNERBACK
1) We have all of last year's corners back: starters, nickel back, and dime back. If Talib and Dennard can have more starts than last year, we are way ahead of the game.
2) Cole is our carry-over dime back and backup. He will likely be supplanted by Dowling, who is better than Cole when healthy.
3) We've also used a relatively high draft pick for Ryan. He may or may not be a dime back this year. In any case, he will be a better backup than street free agents we might pick up as we did last year.
4) The additions of A. WIlson, Armstead, Kelly and Collins should all help the overall pass defense, make the secondary look better.
5) The BOTTOM LINE at cornerback is ALL positive. ALL factors point to improvement. Of course, we might have been able to do even better, but overall Belichick improved the pass defense considerably, and the corner position a bit with the addition of Ryan.

RUNNING BACK
I agree that among Blount, Washington and Vereen, Belichick will scheme to make up for the production of Woodhead. However, I think it instructive to see that Belichick is sill looking for improvement at running back as witnessed by the Felix Jones coming in. I suspect that Belichick has less confidence than posters her. So, BOTTOM LINE, we are in fine shape. After all, we are only losing a backup, and have 3 or more options to replace his production.

WIDE RECEIVER
There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to believe that Amendola, Dobson, Boyce and whoever will be as productive as the corps that we had last year. We have four hopes and more if you count all who are competing for the backup position. The only player we can be reasonably sure of is the oft-injured punter and current #4 emergency receiver.

I'm not saying that this can't work out as it did more than a decade ago with Branch and Givens. I just have no reason to believe that it will, other than the skills of Brady, Josh and Bill. Brady is doing all he can to develop a new go-to man in Amendola. If everyone stays healthy, he should be fine with Gronk, Hernandez, Amendola and Edelman. The rest is gravy. So, we must hope for health and for one rookie or JAG free agent to step up, or a normal health and for two rookies or JAGs to step up. IMHO, that's a lot to hope for.

Consider this another way. Compare our wide receivers to those of other passing teams. Whose set of receivers would take instead of ours; I'll bet that you have a long list. And yes, the question is whether the loss of the one of the best receivers in the league means that much. IMHO, it does.

Brady will make do. He always does. If a player doesn't get open, he won't get thrown to. If a player makes mistakes, Brady will tolerate it for awhile and then not throw to that player. Highly drafted rookies have ridden the pine before.

HOWEVER, if Brady does not have enough players who can get open regularly, then beating top defenses will be difficult.

So, we starting free agency with WR, DE, DT and CB as our major weaknesses. DT and CB were well-addressed. As for the weakness at DE, we will try to compensate. IMHO, WR is by far the biggest question mark other than health with regard to the 2013 patriots.

I tend to look at the WR position as a whole, players 1-5--much like I do the CB position. That is why I am not concerned. You, on the other hand tend to look at trying to replace individual performances. In my opinion as long as the depth and talent of the positional grouping is potentially improved down the line, we are always in position to compete at a high rate.

Our RB's have consistently received catches in the rate between 55-70 in the Belichick era, with the exception of the 2011 season with BJGE. That makes me not worry about losing Woodhead's 40 catches nearly as much. History points to replacing that aspect just fine, maybe not all in one player, but as a RB corps altogether.

I also see Amendola/Edelman/Moe (whomever) continuing to receive the quick timing passes off of the LOS, so again...I'm not nearly as worried about the loss of Welker either. Much like Woodhead, we may not necessarily see one player take over the full bulk of the numeric production, but the purpose of the quick timing routes/short offensive attack will continue to go through someone. The offense is just designed that way. It may be lessened, but it's not going to full-out change. Welker had what, 174 looks last season? If Amendola receives 140 looks, are we not to assume that he'll be a very key contributor?

It all comes down to trying to replace Llyod's production then, and although he may have been consistent in being "okay," he also had many glaring weaknesses like failure to beat man coverage + a lack of speed and any contribution with YAC's. His 50% catch rate also wasn't exactly something to write home about. Any WR in the NFL level should be able to catch 50% of their looks, especially the higher percentage passes thrown in this offense.

Once again, even if we don't have one player who produces 74 catches as Llyod did, that doesn't mean that the WR2 position won't be improved in terms of speed, stretching the defense a bit, and drawing attention from the opposing safety at times. Our shorter pass completion rate was exceptional last year--once again. It was the longer sideline and longer middle passes that were outright pathetic completion rates, and much of that can be attributed to Brandon Llyod's weaknesses. All of those traits needed to be improved on this offense, as these were the weakness that kept us from moving forward. If Belichick did not address changes in the WR position, I'd have thought he lost his mind....
 
IMHO, WR is by far the biggest question mark other than health with regard to the 2013 patriots.

I definitely agree with you there. I just don't have quite the level of concern as you seem to, that's all.

Like I said, I see the team choosing to swap out Welker for Amendola. He has experience in this system. Our short passing/timing attack will continue to be the bread and butter of this offense, probably just not to the same level--as we need to have some outside success too, and that is where Belichick has seemed to try and address the weaknesses that have plagued the offense in the past couple of seasons.

In a nutshell, I don't see much of a concern with the short passing game. We have Amendola, Edelman, and could even make do with someone of much lesser talent. I feel that the short game is predicated on practice, practice, and more practice...Belichick will make sure that this aspect is well enough off to continue to see success.

So, that switches concerns to the intermediate/outside passing game, which absolutely sucked last year and the statistics back that up. I don't think that there are many groups who could actually do much worse than last season. If you look at the intermediate/deep routes to the L, R, and middle of the field you'll see a completion rate of 25-30% total. Although you may want "other" receivers from other teams at the moment, I don't think the bar could be any lower than last season in this area--and that is exactly why I am not as concerned as you are.

Any way you look at it the offense should continue to produce with a committment to the offensive line/running game, the 2 TE's, improved depth (and maybe even talent) at certain areas, and of course...Tom Brady at QB. On top of that, the defense is almost certainly improved no matter how you slice it. This is definitely a team that should go 11-5 or better, with a playoff berth almost assured. Injuries are really the only concern we should have, and I don't recommend living in the "what if?" world. As a general pessimist and worry wart, I can assure you that it is not a fun place to be.
 
:)

Hmmm.

I agree 100% with your analysis.

I agree that we are fine in our short game with Amendola, Edelman, Hernandez and Gronkowski.

I share your concern about the intermediate and outside passing game.


I definitely agree with you there. I just don't have quite the level of concern as you seem to, that's all.

Like I said, I see the team choosing to swap out Welker for Amendola. He has experience in this system. Our short passing/timing attack will continue to be the bread and butter of this offense, probably just not to the same level--as we need to have some outside success too, and that is where Belichick has seemed to try and address the weaknesses that have plagued the offense in the past couple of seasons.

In a nutshell, I don't see much of a concern with the short passing game. We have Amendola, Edelman, and could even make do with someone of much lesser talent. I feel that the short game is predicated on practice, practice, and more practice...Belichick will make sure that this aspect is well enough off to continue to see success.

So, that switches concerns to the intermediate/outside passing game, which absolutely sucked last year and the statistics back that up. I don't think that there are many groups who could actually do much worse than last season. If you look at the intermediate/deep routes to the L, R, and middle of the field you'll see a completion rate of 25-30% total. Although you may want "other" receivers from other teams at the moment, I don't think the bar could be any lower than last season in this area--and that is exactly why I am not as concerned as you are.

Any way you look at it the offense should continue to produce with a committment to the offensive line/running game, the 2 TE's, improved depth (and maybe even talent) at certain areas, and of course...Tom Brady at QB. On top of that, the defense is almost certainly improved no matter how you slice it. This is definitely a team that should go 11-5 or better, with a playoff berth almost assured. Injuries are really the only concern we should have, and I don't recommend living in the "what if?" world. As a general pessimist and worry wart, I can assure you that it is not a fun place to be.
 
Mr MGTEICH, I humbly stand corrected.
 
Guess Moe wasn't that good after all.
EDIT:looks like he was injured actually. Hopefully nobody claims him.
 
My man Edelgod's spot is safe.
 
So what does a UDFA on injured reserve make? Can't make rookie minimum, can they? They'd all get hurt. Practice squad salary?

Be sort of funny if the Giants picked him up on waivers. That'd show Bill.
 
So what does a UDFA on injured reserve make? Can't make rookie minimum, can they? They'd all get hurt. Practice squad salary?

Be sort of funny if the Giants picked him up on waivers. That'd show Bill.

Well, remember that doing that means being willing to pay his entire salary for 2013 with no guarantee of any return on the investment. It's very rare that a team is willing to do that. Think about it: the Giants had the chance to do exactly that with Dane Fletcher last year, and passed.
 
So what does a UDFA on injured reserve make? Can't make rookie minimum, can they? They'd all get hurt. Practice squad salary?

Be sort of funny if the Giants picked him up on waivers. That'd show Bill.

$288,000 is the split salary amount.
 


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