Should Ben TheRapist be called an elite QB?

[Rob0729]

Those rushing numbers pick up kneel downs and times when he was sacked or nearly sacked.

I dunno. I saw a guy who made the plays he needed to make and picked up some key first downs with his legs, especially on that first, tone setting drive.

Ben seems to me like a guy who often doesn't look pretty but gets the job done at a very high rate.

Would you really rather have anyone but him (if you excluded Tom and Peyton and Brees) if you had one game to win and your life depended on it? And if so, who would be on that list ahead of Ben (excluding the three I mentioned)? Would more than one or two guys be on it?

If Roethlisberger played better, the Steelers would have blown out the Jets by three TDs. Last year, Brady got a lot of crap for poor play in the second half and not scoring points. Last week, the Steelers didn't score a single point in the second half. The Steelers scored 17 points on offense in total.

In the second half, the Steelers' offensive drives were as followed:
-First drive ended in a Roethlisberger INT
- Second drive Roethlisberger completed one pass for 4 yards and was sacked twice and the drive went 18 yards (5 came on a Cromartie holding penalty).
- Third drive ended was one play with Roethlisberger sacked for a safety
- The last drive was the only drive that he did well in the second half where he made two completions to run out the clock

 

[JMarr]

Ben seems to me like a guy who often doesn't look pretty but gets the job done at a very high rate.

Would you really rather have anyone but him (if you excluded Tom and Peyton and Brees) if you had one game to win and your life depended on it? And if so, who would be on that list ahead of Ben (excluding the three I mentioned)? Would more than one or two guys be on it?

Rodgers, Rivers, Vick, Ryan, Josh Freeman eek: )

You must have really been rooting for Pitt. for your eye test to see Roethlesburger playing well in that game. Boomer Esiason is right--he pretty much sucked the whole game and made some absolutely horrendous decisions (although yes, he made plays when he needed to). Usually when I see him play, he seems extremely lucky much of the time (kind of like Sanchez and the Jets), or bailed out by his receivers, defense, or on some fluke play.

 

[DarrylStingley]

If Roethlisberger played better, the Steelers would have blown out the Jets by three TDs. Last year, Brady got a lot of crap for poor play in the second half and not scoring points. Last week, the Steelers didn't score a single point in the second half. The Steelers scored 17 points on offense in total.

In the second half, the Steelers' offensive drives were as followed:
-First drive ended in a Roethlisberger INT
- Second drive Roethlisberger completed one pass for 4 yards and was sacked twice and the drive went 18 yards (5 came on a Cromartie holding penalty).
- Third drive ended was one play with Roethlisberger sacked for a safety
- The last drive was the only drive that he did well in the second half where he made two completions to run out the clock

Yeah, it's true that Ben had some bad moments. And let's not forget his miss of a wide open Heath Miller on the first drive.

I was in Pittsburgh. Wallace and Ward were almost never open. The Jets D did a great job in the second half. The Steelers' running game was no longer effective in the second half.

Ben made enough plays to win and some of them were all him, including that great pitch to Mendenhall on the first drive, a completion to Miller after a scramble up the right sideline and the scrambles for first downs. And those two passes at the end.

Who's the MVP of that game? Mendenhall? He did nothing in the second half. What defensive player really stood out? Who made the BIG play? No one. Polamalu had one memorable play and it came after a 6 or 7 yard gain. Harrison is always good but had no signature moments. The kick off returner/WR who returned the last kick off and caught the last ball had some moments.

Ben was the key guy in that game, warts and all.

And you still haven't answered my question. Who would you want more than Brady, PManning, Brees and him if your life depended on the outcome? Is anyone other than the SD and GB QBs even in the conversation? Matt Ryan? Please. Guy wet his pants in his one playoff game.

 

[DarrylStingley]

Rodgers, Rivers, Vick, Ryan, Josh Freeman eek: )

You must have really been rooting for Pitt. for your eye test to see Roethlesburger playing well in that game. Boomer Esiason is right--he pretty much sucked the whole game and made some absolutely horrendous decisions (although yes, he made plays when he needed to). Usually when I see him play, he seems extremely lucky much of the time (kind of like Sanchez and the Jets), or bailed out by his receivers, defense, or on some fluke play.

Vick? If your life depended on it? Wow. That guy is so erratic and hasn't won squat in the NFL. Matt Ryan? Did you see the Falcons' playoff game? Josh Freeman? Maybe one day but way too unproven now.

I was rooting for the Jets to lose. I am not a Steelers or Ben fan, and hope the Packers hammer them to smithereens. Just reading Casey Hampton's nonsense is reason enough for me to get the Pittsburgh/AFC hate going again.

But Ben wins SBs and other playoff games. Our Tommy hasn't done much of that recently, so maybe I appreciate it more than usual.

 

[JMarr]

Vick? If your life depended on it? Wow. That guy is so erratic and hasn't won squat in the NFL. Matt Ryan? Did you see the Falcons' playoff game? Josh Freeman? Maybe one day but way too unproven now.

I was rooting for the Jets to lose. I am not a Steelers or Ben fan, and hope the Packers hammer them to smithereens. Just reading Casey Hampton's nonsense is reason enough for me to get the Pittsburgh/AFC hate going again.

But Ben wins SBs and other playoff games. Our Tommy hasn't done much of that recently, so maybe I appreciate it more than usual.

In a vacuum (leave the rest of the Steelers team out of it), yes, any of those guys. And regarding your last point, for me there is a big difference between being "clutch" and being "elite" when it comes to NFL QBs. Also, unlike most around here who like to use number of rings, AFC Championships, etc. to argue that Brady > Peyton, I think those numbers mean next to nothing when it comes to evaluating QB talent.

 

[DarrylStingley]

In a vacuum (leave the rest of the Steelers team out of it), yes, any of those guys. And regarding your last point, for me there is a big difference between being "clutch" and being "elite" when it comes to NFL QBs. Also, unlike most around here who like to use number of rings, AFC Championships, etc. to argue that Brady > Peyton, I think those numbers mean next to nothing when it comes to evaluating QB talent.

Let's ignore the labels and just let it come down to the QB you'd rather have if you were starting a team that would last a few years (thereby taking long term longevity out of the mix).

For me, the list is:

- Tom
- Brees, Manning
- Ben
- Rodgers, Rivers

After that group of 6, the only guy who even sniffs the conversation is Matt Ryan. Michael Vick, Josh Freeman iand Joe Flacco round out the top 10-11 but they really are nowhere near the top 4-6, in my view.

To me, being in the top 4 or even 6 QBs in football makes you elite. A factor in being elite has got to be how much you win. I know that winning is a team stat and that Dan Marino is an all time elite QB, regardless of his lack of rings.

But you have to factor in winning at some level (as that's the whole point), and while it's not a demerit not to have rings, having them is a merit for Ben, as he was clearly a huge factor in getting them. Doing the things that lead to wins is part of a QBs job.

Parenthetically, watching Ben and Rodgers makes me jealous of fans who get to watch their QBs make plays with their legs. That's fun stuff. Now to be clear, Tom is my favorite athlete in all of sports, and I wouldn't trade him for anyone. But it's got to be fun watching a QB routinely pick up first downs when all hell has broken loose.

 

[sieglo]

^^^ Wot, no love for Matty C?

 

[DarrylStingley]

^^^ Wot, no love for Matty C?

Yeah, he's probably somewhere in or near the Flacco/Vick/Freeman level. True. Forgot about him.

 

[Rob0729]

Yeah, it's true that Ben had some bad moments. And let's not forget his miss of a wide open Heath Miller on the first drive.

I was in Pittsburgh. Wallace and Ward were almost never open. The Jets D did a great job in the second half. The Steelers' running game was no longer effective in the second half.

Ben made enough plays to win and some of them were all him, including that great pitch to Mendenhall on the first drive, a completion to Miller after a scramble up the right sideline and the scrambles for first downs. And those two passes at the end.

Who's the MVP of that game? Mendenhall? He did nothing in the second half. What defensive player really stood out? Who made the BIG play? No one. Polamalu had one memorable play and it came after a 6 or 7 yard gain. Harrison is always good but had no signature moments. The kick off returner/WR who returned the last kick off and caught the last ball had some moments.

Ben was the key guy in that game, warts and all.

And you still haven't answered my question. Who would you want more than Brady, PManning, Brees and him if your life depended on the outcome? Is anyone other than the SD and GB QBs even in the conversation? Matt Ryan? Please. Guy wet his pants in his one playoff game.

The Steelers played an uneven game. They were unstoppable in the first half and lost in the second half. I don't think anyone on that team played a complete game. Saying that Roethlisberger was the "MVP" of that game doesn't mean he had a great game though.

Personally, Mendenhall deserves that award because without his running in the first half, the Steelers lose 19-7 if everything else worked out the same way. Yes, Mendenhall did little in the second half, but he had something like 120 yards in the first half and was most of the offense.

As to the question of who I want more, it really has nothing to do with how Roethlisberger did in this game. I am pretty sure I said earlier in this thread that Roethlisberger is a top QB. I would take Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Rodgers over him though. All I said is his performance in the AFC Championship game was overrated.

 

[DarrylStingley]

As to the question of who I want more, it really has nothing to do with how Roethlisberger did in this game. I am pretty sure I said earlier in this thread that Roethlisberger is a top QB. I would take Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Rodgers over him though. All I said is his performance in the AFC Championship game was overrated.

Yeah, no doubt, one game doesn't drive the conversation.

But, that said, this game was somewhat indicative. Ben wasn't flashy but his team found a way to win, and he contributed to that meaningfully. Like a lot of Ben games. And in a final four game.

We don't really disagree on much, though. Sounds like he's Top 6 for both of us. For me, he's Top 4 and gives Brees a ride for Top 3. I'd take Brees ahead of him but Ben would make me think.

Then again, Rodgers and Rivers are really good, and in some ways I view the Ben/Rivers/Rodgers as one and the same.