Reaching for Barwin Against Patriot-Belichick Philosophy?

[TriplecHamp]

I have to disagree with you. Its my opinion that none of the players you've mentioned fall into the category of being able to step into the 3-4 2 gap defense and be a good pass rusher in his first year. Maybe in sub-packages after half a season, but not right out of TC. Especially not Orakpo, Mathews, Cushing, or Maybin. Maybe Brown or English, but I am not holding my breath.

Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but most, if not all of the players you've mentioned have spent very little time (if any) on special teams. To me, that gives Barwin an advantage. Is it enough to make him a 1st round pick? I don't know. But I'd rather him than the others you've mentioned because I don't believe that their abilities translate as well into the 3-4 2 Gap OLB. Brown and English would be ahead of Cushing, Matthews, Maybin and Orakpo.

You dont spend a first round pick on somebody who is primarily going to be a special teams contributer. And I dont think Barwin is going to make an impact on special teams in the pros. Do you think Barwin is going to block mutiple kicks in the pros? And why wouldent Orakpo Everette Brown etc. be able to rush the passer in our system? You are getting too into the whole scheme aspect and not looking into the football player aspect. A good football Player can play in most systems. Barwin isnt as special as some are making him out to be. How many Double teams did he face in college? Why do you think what he did in college translate to the NFL? I honestly think he got by by being quicker than the below average OT he faced.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You dont spend a first round pick on somebody who is primarily going to be a special teams contributer. And I dont think Barwin is going to make an impact on special teams in the pros. Do you think Barwin is going to block mutiple kicks in the pros? And why wouldent Orakpo Everette Brown etc. be able to rush the passer in our system? You are getting too into the whole scheme aspect and not looking into the football player aspect. A good football Player can play in most systems. Barwin isnt as special as some are making him out to be. How many Double teams did he face in college? Why do you think what he did in college translate to the NFL? I honestly think he got by by being quicker than the below average OT he faced.

errrr......maybe because orakpo and brown won't be there when the pats draft?

why are you so mad at connor barwin?

 

[apple strudel]

why are you so mad at connor barwin?

Why do you hate America?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Ochmed, given the fact Barwin needs development, do you think he'll beat out Crable or the others currently on the roster? Those guys have a year in the system and came out of college with huge potential as well.

define huge potential..........because nobody the pats have now has the potential of barwin

why do you hate barwin so much?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Why do you hate America?

huh? I don't

please explain, Lucy

 

[apple strudel]

huh? I don't

please explain, Lucy

It's just a joke. Who's Lucy?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

It's just a joke. Who's Lucy?

never mind

 

[DaBruinz]

You dont spend a first round pick on somebody who is primarily going to be a special teams contributer. And I dont think Barwin is going to make an impact on special teams in the pros. Do you think Barwin is going to block mutiple kicks in the pros? And why wouldent Orakpo Everette Brown etc. be able to rush the passer in our system? You are getting too into the whole scheme aspect and not looking into the football player aspect. A good football Player can play in most systems. Barwin isnt as special as some are making him out to be. How many Double teams did he face in college? Why do you think what he did in college translate to the NFL? I honestly think he got by by being quicker than the below average OT he faced.

You really haven't looked at anything that I have talked about regarding Barwin have you?

First of all, Barwin's special team's experience is a bonus, not a detraction. It gets him on the field getting used to the speed of the game. Something that only one person has mentioned that Matthews has as well. No where did I say that Barwin would only be a special teams player so I don't understand how you could possibly come to that conclusion.

Next, I mentioned numerous times about Barwin's abilities and yes, they are special. People who watch Barwin on more than the highlight reels see that.

Also, I am not just getting stuck on the scheme. On the contrary. Had you read any of the other threads on Barwin you'd see that I talk about Barwin's tangibles and intangibles.

Why don't I think the others will be as good? Neither Matthews nor Cushing are weaker against the run than Barwin for the OLB spot. And, if you think Barwin only got by on his quickness, you'd have to say the same for Matthews and Cushing. English's explosion off the snap is good, but he doesn't have Barwin's agility or vertical. Orakpo is a typical 4-3 DE who just puts his head down and rushes, though he's wasn't as successful as UT would like you to believe. NCAA scoring only credited him with 36 career QB pressures compared to the 60 something that UT was crediting him with. As for Brown, he's a wild card. I think he'd make a better 4-3 DE in all honesty. Particularly for a team like the Giants.

One of the things that I believe you are over-looking about the Patriots 3-4 2 Gap OLB is that rushing the Passer is NOT their only job. They have to be able to set the edge or drop back into coverage depending on the play. The Patriots pass rush was most successful when they could rush from any of the 4 LB positions. Not just from the 2 OLB positions, like was happened last year. So they need smart, athletic, football players who can do that. And there are questions about the others regarding those 3 items.

Now, about a good player being able to play in any scheme. That is true with one caveat. And that is given enough time. Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel both said it too them 3 years to learn the different positions they switched to.

 

[TriplecHamp]

errrr......maybe because orakpo and brown won't be there when the pats draft?

why are you so mad at connor barwin?

Who said I was mad at Barwin??? Im just not a sheep who does what others are doing. Im questioning why people beleive Barwin is going to be so good. Isnt that what this site is for?

 

[TriplecHamp]

You really haven't looked at anything that I have talked about regarding Barwin have you?

First of all, Barwin's special team's experience is a bonus, not a detraction. It gets him on the field getting used to the speed of the game. Something that only one person has mentioned that Matthews has as well. No where did I say that Barwin would only be a special teams player so I don't understand how you could possibly come to that conclusion.

Next, I mentioned numerous times about Barwin's abilities and yes, they are special. People who watch Barwin on more than the highlight reels see that.

Also, I am not just getting stuck on the scheme. On the contrary. Had you read any of the other threads on Barwin you'd see that I talk about Barwin's tangibles and intangibles.

Why don't I think the others will be as good? Neither Matthews nor Cushing are weaker against the run than Barwin for the OLB spot. And, if you think Barwin only got by on his quickness, you'd have to say the same for Matthews and Cushing. English's explosion off the snap is good, but he doesn't have Barwin's agility or vertical. Orakpo is a typical 4-3 DE who just puts his head down and rushes, though he's wasn't as successful as UT would like you to believe. NCAA scoring only credited him with 36 career QB pressures compared to the 60 something that UT was crediting him with. As for Brown, he's a wild card. I think he'd make a better 4-3 DE in all honesty. Particularly for a team like the Giants.

One of the things that I believe you are over-looking about the Patriots 3-4 2 Gap OLB is that rushing the Passer is NOT their only job. They have to be able to set the edge or drop back into coverage depending on the play. The Patriots pass rush was most successful when they could rush from any of the 4 LB positions. Not just from the 2 OLB positions, like was happened last year. So they need smart, athletic, football players who can do that. And there are questions about the others regarding those 3 items.

Now, about a good player being able to play in any scheme. That is true with one caveat. And that is given enough time. Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel both said it too them 3 years to learn the different positions they switched to.

Originally Posted by Ochmed Jones
So what makes a great NFL pass rusher:

1.) Explosive first step. Barwin has it.

2.) Strength/Superior use of the hands. Barwin does not have it. Barwin's hand technique is that of a 1st year DE. But if you look at his technique from game 1 to the Bowl game,
This is all that I have been asking for of him. Some people have this irrational idea that I've been proclaiming Barwin the equivalent of the next coming because they either exaggerate or irrationally read into what is said.

Is this developmental course any different from what BB did with Meriweather, except Merriweather got on the field a half year quicker due to Rodney's injury?

Not everybody is going to track developmentally like Mankins did. it improved tremendously. When I watched the Combine, I saw that Barwin was one of only 3 or 4 LB prospects to do the Rushing drills the way the coaches said to do them.

His arm strength is adequate and he has very good leg strength that will help him hold up at the point of attack.

3.) Multiple moves/techniques to set up the tackle. Barwin has only one move. Straight up the field and around the corner. Barwin has more than one move. Barwin has used other moves (spin, swim, club, etc) to shed the OT, TE, or FB. They weren't used regularly because you use your best move until you aren't beating them anymore and then you switch.

So Barwin only has 1 of the 3, fortunately it is the most important attribute needed and it cannot be taught!

The thing is - Barwin does not need to come in and start. He only needs to spend his freshman year upgrading ST and getting physically stronger and technically better. By year 2, he should at least become the 3rd down pass rush demon we desperately need. And by year three a full time member of the base defense.


You quoted on this and said that all you expect out of Barwin this year is that he play special teams and contiune to get better. I dont want to spend a 1st round pick on a Primarily STer. Yes it is a bonus but if he cant contribute on this defense this year than he dosent get a first round grade. I beleive a English or a Mathews can contribute to this defense and on ST while still getting better over the course of the season. look at it this way I agree with what you said but what you are describing is not a first round pick. What you are descrbing somebody who should be picked in the second round.

 

[maverick4]

You really haven't looked at anything that I have talked about regarding Barwin have you?

...Had you read any of the other threads on Barwin

One of the things that I believe you are over-looking

Triplechamp has been an active participant in this for days. You even responded to him in another thread about Barwin.

 

[PATSNUTme]

This horse has been beaten enough. Nothing new here to see, closing thread.