Reaching for Barwin Against Patriot-Belichick Philosophy?

[TriplecHamp]

Everette Brown: Well I sure wouldnt like dwight freeny playing OLB. I dont know how you came up with him being a tampa two end. 4.65 forty, 26 reps of 225lbs. Pass rushing ability: Biggest asset is his first-step quickness. He explodes off the ball. Shows consistent ability to get the OT off-balance wide and then quickly redirects back inside. Displays a fluid spin move and also some power in his bull rush. Not coached very well as a pass rusher, though. Poor hand usage. Needs to refine pass rush moves and do a better job of protecting his lower body.
Barwin: Quick enough to turn the corner and shows above-average closing speed for size. Flashes a strong punch and the ability to shed blocks quickly. Fluid looping around defensive tackles on line stunts. Has rare leaping ability, times jumps well and gets hands on more passes than most. Can get under offensive tackle's pads and drive him back into the pocket but doesn't show a wide variety of pass rush moves. Needs to do a better job of forcing offensive tackles to redirect.
Barwin received a 2 in PRushing, Brown a 1. Both received 3's in the runstopping department.
I think this shows Barwin's athleticsm getting him by some non NFL Tackles.

 

[TriplecHamp]

17 more days and none of this will matter. Yes.

Bro you dont even know!

 

[jays52]

No I mean actuall scouts, you know the ones who write the " Scouting reports"
According to scouts:

Maybin: 22 reps on the bench Barwin: 21 well there goes the "too weak" argument. He's no more of an Unfinnished product than Barwin is and he has just as much if not more upside. Maybin hasnt grown into his body and probably could have used another year in college but right now he is considerd by most a top 15 pick, pretty good for a guy who should have stayed an extra year. By next year this time he will start to max out his frame. Maybin also has the quickest first step in this draft and is graded as a 95 overall grade by scouts inc. Barwin:81 overall. Run stopping:Spent a lot of time last season working head-up on the TE as PSU's strong-side DE. Shows discipline with backside containment. Stays low and fights to keep his positioning. Can stack versus most TE's but gets washed out too easily by bigger OT's when they get into his pads. Barwin:Can get engulfed by bigger offensive tackles and going to have problems holding ground against the run if asked to line up at defensive end in a 4-3 scheme but big and strong enough to hold his own working against tight ends. Sideline-to-sideline run defender. Reliable open field tackler that wraps up upon contact. Both received a grade of 3. 1 is the highest 5 the lowest so its safe to say both need work in the run game.

1) If they were actual scouts, they wouldn't be writing blogs. They'd be studying film 20 hours a day, 7 days a week.

2) Bench reps? Seriously? Bench reps? That means functional playing strength? Bodybuilders can rep 450 for 15-20 reps, you think they'd have a prayer at stoning Wilfork? There's a 5'3 Scottish olympic lifter than can dunk. I wonder what that's a function of?

3) ESPN's draft service is dead f'ing wrong. Maybin was tossed by TE's. He had his pads in his throat on every run play. At least Barwin wasn't seven yards downfield after every snap.

4) Find a Penn State tape where Maybin is cracked down on during a sweep. After the play, note how green his jersey suddenly is. Barwin fought cracks really well when they came.


Wait. Wait. Hold on. I can play this game.....click on the url tab....google.com.....Everette Brown....mmmmk...click on the ESPN link....ok.....ctrl+c....ok, now back to Patsfans tab.....ctrl+v. Bow to my prowess!


ok...fahk...gotta say this. These days, the so called experts out there think that every undersized defensive end with reasonable speed is a 3-4 OLB. Let me say this very clearly, they don't know what they are talking about. The positions require two very different skill sets. They require different abilities, different player profiles, different intelligence attributes, different everything. Just look at the player play and think about how that will correlate to playing within the Patriots system. This isn't rocket science.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Clint Sintim: Probably the most NFL ready 3-4 OLB. Just decent in zone and man coverages but just as good of a pass rusher IMO. Barwin has better numbers in shorts but Sintim has a lower ceiling but floor is higher.
Pass Rushing:Owns Virginia's record for career sacks by a LB (27).Can rush the passer from a two-point and three-point stance. Can set offensive tackles up to the outside before redirecting inside. Active hands and flashes an effective rip move. Moves well laterally when running line stunts. Shows good initial burst but lacks elite closing burst.

Both Sintim and Barwin received 2's in the PR department.
Sintim overall: 87
Barwin: 81

 

[JoeShmoe]

Couple of points to note

IF he's as good as claimed and his inangibles and 'ceiling' is that great he'll be gone before #23 anyway .. esp with the steroid issues with the USC guys

Who knows what the NE value chart is? If Barwin is the BPA available when we pick thats an option, but BB might see OL or WR as a greater need and thus he they have a higher value to the team. He might trade down, bypassing Barwin and picking up more ammunition klater in the draft and a move into 2010

And behind all this is Jason Taylor and whether we have a verbal agreement he's coming - which gives us 5 or 6 possible OLB's already on the roster

Me - if he's at the top of the 2nd id pull the trigger or maybe if we move down to #29 - but not at #23 as OLB isnt my biggest team need

 

[TriplecHamp]

1) If they were actual scouts, they wouldn't be writing blogs. They'd be studying film 20 hours a day, 7 days a week.

2) Bench reps? Seriously? Bench reps? That means functional playing strength? Bodybuilders can rep 450 for 15-20 reps, you think they'd have a prayer at stoning Wilfork? There's a 5'3 Scottish olympic lifter than can dunk. I wonder what that's a function of?

3) ESPN's draft service is dead f'ing wrong. Maybin was tossed by TE's. He had his pads in his throat on every run play. At least Barwin wasn't seven yards downfield after every snap.

4) Find a Penn State tape where Maybin is cracked down on during a sweep. After the play, note how green his jersey suddenly is. Barwin fought cracks really well when they came.


Wait. Wait. Hold on. I can play this game.....click on the url tab....google.com.....Everette Brown....mmmmk...click on the ESPN link....ok.....ctrl+c....ok, now back to Patsfans tab.....ctrl+v. Bow to my prowess!


ok...fahk...gotta say this. These days, the so called experts out there think that every undersized defensive end with reasonable speed is a 3-4 OLB. Let me say this very clearly, they don't know what they are talking about. The positions require two very different skill sets. They require different abilities, different player profiles, different intelligence attributes, different everything. Just look at the player play and think about how that will correlate to playing within the Patriots system. This isn't rocket science.

Ok but you do know what you are talking about. Why arent the teams that are looking at the above players not looking at barwin in the teens and lower? Why dosnt GB want Barwin at 9? Cleavland at 5? What do you know that the proffesional scouts for these teams dont? That is the problem with some of the people on this board. They are becoming too emotionally attached to these players to the point where they go and insult others becuase we ask questions. Im not just gonna hop on the "Barwin at #23" bandwagon. Im just saying if he is so Unique and Special than why isnt he a lock for the top ten?

 

[jays52]

Ok but you do know what you are talking about. Why arent the teams that are looking at the above players not looking at barwin in the teens and lower? Why dosnt GB want Barwin at 9? Cleavland at 5? What do you know that the proffesional scouts for these teams dont? That is the problem with some of the people on this board. They are becoming too emotionally attached to these players to the point where they go and insult others becuase we ask questions. Im not just gonna hop on the "Barwin at #23" bandwagon. Im just saying if he is so Unique and Special than why isnt he a lock for the top ten?

Am I willing to bet two week's salary that I know more about football than a lot of these so called experts who have never played a snap but blog like they're fuggin Pioli? yeah. Do I put in as much time as them? No, I have a job that is completely unrelated to football.

Bro, I'm not trying to be a ****, I just get so frustrated with some of the information put out there by some of these services. For all we know, Barwin may very well be a top 10 pick who is the second coming of Lawrence Taylor. Conversely, for all we know he could be a 4th rounder who plays tight end for a year and then bounces around the league as a ST'er.

The value that Barwin presents is a guy who has demonstrated everything you look for in a stud 3-4 weakside OLB or "Jack" linebacker. If they call the position Jack in NE, I have no idea, but that's how I refer to the position. Further, his relatively small sample size will likely make him available between 20 and 50, picks NE has in abundance. Barwin has top 10 potential and skill, and has demonstrated everything you look for in risk minimization. The other 3-4 prospects have nowhere near his requisate skill set for this scheme and he is likely available when the Patriots pick. If he had two similar seasons to the one he had this past year, he would be a top five pick. It is very rare that a player of this calibur will be available when the Patriots pick. There is an opportunity here for the Pats to land a potential top 5 tallent in the 20-50 range. That's the value.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Am I willing to bet two week's salary that I know more about football than a lot of these so called experts who have never played a snap but blog like they're fuggin Pioli? yeah. Do I put in as much time as them? No, I have a job that is completely unrelated to football.

Bro, I'm not trying to be a ****, I just get so frustrated with some of the information put out there by some of these services. For all we know, Barwin may very well be a top 10 pick who is the second coming of Lawrence Taylor. Conversely, for all we know he could be a 4th rounder who plays tight end for a year and then bounces around the league as a ST'er.

The value that Barwin presents is a guy who has demonstrated everything you look for in a stud 3-4 weakside OLB or "Jack" linebacker. If they call the position Jack in NE, I have no idea, but that's how I refer to the position. Further, his relatively small sample size will likely make him available between 20 and 50, picks NE has in abundance. Barwin has top 10 potential and skill, and has demonstrated everything you look for in risk minimization. The other 3-4 prospects have nowhere near his requisate skill set for this scheme and he is likely available when the Patriots pick. If he had two similar seasons to the one he had this past year, he would be a top five pick. It is very rare that a player of this calibur will be available when the Patriots pick. There is an opportunity here for the Pats to land a potential top 5 tallent in the 20-50 range. That's the value.

Again this is all opinion. I think that some other "Jack" prospects would do just as well in our system. I think that right now what this team lacks is Pass Rush. I think that we could get a pass rusher that can hold his own in the run department and at the same time be able to drop back and cover without major problems. It really isnt a knock on Barwin but rather more insight to some of the other options. I feel like too many people have their minds and hearts set at Barwin at #23. What if we were to take Everette Brown and Barwin were to go to the Phins? I and some others would be happy. You and some others would be upset. All im trying to say is none of us are going to make the pick so we should just look at all the possible options and Let the BB and company make the Pick that they fell is right and support it, not put all your eggs in one basket and watch it come crashing down if we go another route with #23.

 

[Nestapats]

Ok but you do know what you are talking about. Why arent the teams that are looking at the above players not looking at barwin in the teens and lower? Why dosnt GB want Barwin at 9? Cleavland at 5? What do you know that the proffesional scouts for these teams dont? That is the problem with some of the people on this board. They are becoming too emotionally attached to these players to the point where they go and insult others becuase we ask questions. Im not just gonna hop on the "Barwin at #23" bandwagon. Im just saying if he is so Unique and Special than why isnt he a lock for the top ten?

The teams in the top 10/20 of the draft spend huge money on an unproven player, so you gotta factor in risk/reward. Look at last year: The phins took Jake Long, while they could've taken Matt Ryan. They took the safe pick, because high priced qb's are too often busts. Barwin is a prospect who has just one year as a DE, right? So the scouts have just one year gametape on him at the position, but he has performed on the field. I do agree with you on the fact that too many people stick with their player. I know some of you already had Barwin as a favorite prospect, but others just jumped the bandwagon and looked too much in his combine results. That's the last thing you should do. Therefore i'm not putting him in the first round. I see pro day performances, interviews and more above all gametape as more important. The best way to evaluate a player imo is to see what he did on the field. When there are still some questions remaining to be answered, you can bring the kid in and do some work-out drills to look at his technique etc. The prospects from large schools already have enough gametape to evaluate them.
Therefore i think that if the opportunity arises BB will jump on Maualuga, because i believe he has everything to complement Mayo. I think it could play out like this:

Package #23+#89+#234 to get to 15 or something.

#15 Maualuga
#34 Barwin
#47 D.J. Moore
#58 Jamon Meredith
#97 William Moore
Trade #124 and #199 to next year.
#170 Rashad Jennings
#207 Stephen McGee

I think they would combine need with best player available. I'm pretty confident that Barwin will be available at 34, because of his high-risk/high-reward status.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Ok but you do know what you are talking about. Why arent the teams that are looking at the above players not looking at barwin in the teens and lower? Why dosnt GB want Barwin at 9? Cleavland at 5? What do you know that the proffesional scouts for these teams dont? That is the problem with some of the people on this board. They are becoming too emotionally attached to these players to the point where they go and insult others becuase we ask questions. Im not just gonna hop on the "Barwin at #23" bandwagon. Im just saying if he is so Unique and Special than why isnt he a lock for the top ten?

Why does KC talk about trading down to draft a guy like Barwin? There are always counter examples. We'll be lucky to get Barwin at #23 if he lasts that long. He has the intangibles and the athletic ability to be a stud 3-4 OLB.

Package #23+#89+#234 to get to 15 or something.

#15 Maualuga

I am so not on the Maualuga bandwagon that it's not even funny. The guy looked terrible his senior year, got pushed around and knocked down by guys like Shawn Nelson in the Senior Bowl and apparently runs a 4.8 40 at the combine and managed like a 4.65 time on USC pro day on a faster track. Compare to Barwin 4.66 at Combine and 4.47 at his pro day. People talk about Barwin being a reach at #23, then with that same mouth talk about moving up to #15 for an overrated guy like Maualuga who would be much better in a 4-3 system with big guys up front to keep the guards off him? That makes me laugh out loud. Let's put it this way, if Maualuga last to round 2, I'd take a chance on him. But spending two high picks to move up to get him? I just don't see it.

Finally one last reminder to kill this 'reaching' talk, it doesn't apply to BB. Mayo is the prime example last year, Deion Branch etc in the past. He's been known to take guys that so called 'draft experts' had going in later rounds a lot earlier. Bottom line - Mayock, Kiper, etc. have no idea what the Patriots real draft board looks like. And the Pats DO NOT and never have drafted according to so called 'draft experts' boards.

Finally Barwin has the measurements of an ELITE athelete. All these other guys we talk about, whether Curry, E. Brown, Maualuga, Orakpo, Maybin, etc. none of them blow Barwin out of the water when we're talking athleticism. In fact sometimes it's the converse. You don't think the Patriots account for that? Believe it or not the Pats do draft elite athletes, just look at Wheatley's numbers in last year's draft, and look at the other examples in the past.

Wheatley ran a best of 4.37 in the 40, which tied him for fourth-best among the cornerbacks. He also had a 36.5 inch vertical jump (5th), a broad jump of 10 feet, 8 inches (t-4th), a 3-cone drill time of 6.74 seconds (t-1st), and a 60-yard shuttle time of 11.58 seconds (5th).

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1261

The value that Barwin presents is a guy who has demonstrated everything you look for in a stud 3-4 weakside OLB or "Jack" linebacker. If they call the position Jack in NE, I have no idea, but that's how I refer to the position. Further, his relatively small sample size will likely make him available between 20 and 50, picks NE has in abundance. Barwin has top 10 potential and skill, and has demonstrated everything you look for in risk minimization. The other 3-4 prospects have nowhere near his requisate skill set for this scheme and he is likely available when the Patriots pick. If he had two similar seasons to the one he had this past year, he would be a top five pick. It is very rare that a player of this calibur will be available when the Patriots pick. There is an opportunity here for the Pats to land a potential top 5 tallent in the 20-50 range. That's the value.

That's exactly the point. If Barwin had spent two years on defense with similar numbers instead of 1 year, we'd be talking about him the same way we're talking about Curry now, highly desirable but way out of reach. When a guy with this potential talent level becomes available at your spot and you have a plethora of picks, you should go for the possibly great player with skyhigh upside. When you have this many picks, why not?

 

[Nestapats]

Why does KC talk about trading down to draft a guy like Barwin? There are always counter examples. We'll be lucky to get Barwin at #23 if he lasts that long. He has the intangibles and the athletic ability to be a stud 3-4 OLB.



I am so not on the Maualuga bandwagon that it's not even funny. The guy looked terrible his senior year, got pushed around and knocked down by guys like Shawn Nelson in the Senior Bowl and apparently runs a 4.8 40 at the combine and managed like a 4.65 time on USC pro day on a faster track. Compare to Barwin 4.66 at Combine and 4.47 at his pro day. People talk about Barwin being a reach at #23, then with that same mouth talk about moving up to #15 for an overrated guy like Maualuga who would be much better in a 4-3 system with big guys up front to keep the guards off him? That makes me laugh out loud.

Finally one last reminder to kill this 'reaching' talk, it doesn't apply to BB. Mayo is the prime example last year, Deion Branch etc in the past. He's been known to take guys that so called 'draft experts' had going in later rounds a lot earlier. Bottom line - Mayock, Kiper, etc. have no idea what the Patriots real draft board looks like. And the Pats DO NOT and never have drafted according to so called 'draft experts' boards.

Finally Barwin has the measurements of an ELITE athelete. All these other guys we talk about, whether Curry, E. Brown, Maualuga, Orakpo, Maybin, etc. none of them blow Barwin out of the water when we're talking athleticism. In fact sometimes it's the converse. You don't think the Patriots account for that? Believe it or not the Pats do draft elite athletes, just look at Wheatley's numbers in last year's draft, and look at the other examples in the past.

Wheatley ran a best of 4.37 in the 40, which tied him for fourth-best among the cornerbacks. He also had a 36.5 inch vertical jump (5th), a broad jump of 10 feet, 8 inches (t-4th), a 3-cone drill time of 6.74 seconds (t-1st), and a 60-yard shuttle time of 11.58 seconds (5th).

Terrence Wheatley Scouting Report - 2008 NFL Draft Prospect

This is exactly what i'm talking about: "He ran this, he got pushed around" I know he got pushed around at the senior bowl, but in games??? if you truly have seen games of him play with my glasses on, you would see a FOOTBALL player. Someone with instincts and a certain package of qualities. We're not looking at the complete package here, neither with Barwin. But the guys can bring certain aspects of their game to complement this defense. BB always looks at guys who can fill a role on this team, not to take on all the duties. I personally feel like Maualuga is a player who can complement Mayo and fill the footsteps of Bruschi. I've seen alot of USC games this year and i value more into the games, than into running a 40 time on a shaky hamstring. Clearly we don't agree on how good he is. I think he's a mid to late first round guy, but players always excel or fit better in certain systems. I just feel like Maualuga fits our need and system and i think he would excel here. Therefore moving up to grab him doesn't seem to me like a reach, because he's the player you seek.

Further, i know they like athletes i never said that and i have alot of athletes/versatile guys taken in my draft (D.J. Moore, Barwin) . I just think Barwin is a high risk player because of the overhype on numbers, instead of actual football.
Wheatley btw was also considered a reach, but they took him because of his fluid hips, which i believe was considered a very important thing for a pats CB. I feel D.J. Moore is a same type a CB and would fit the pats very well.

So what i'm basically trying to say here is that i don't put value into the analysis of some ESPN losers, but i already thought during the season (even last year), that Rey would be a good fit for the Pats. I konw we don't know what the pats board looks like and for all we know he drafts Ramses Barden at 23, but if i just look at position need and what we need specifically at the position, than i feel Maualuga is a good fit.

 

[mayoclinic]

I know we don't know what the pats board looks like and for all we know he drafts Ramses Barden at 23, but if i just look at position need and what we need specifically at the position, than i feel Maualuga is a good fit.

Now maybe the anti-Barwin group can start a "draft Barden, not Barwin" petition.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What makes him so unique? Why should we take him over Maybin, E.Brown, C.Sintim, B.Orakpo, Clay Matthews, Brian Cushing, L.English??? Most Scouts feel that the above are better prospects.

If those scouts are working for the NE Patriots I'd be more interested in their opinion.

Maybin - The kid reportedly needed to work to add 20 pounds between the Rose Bowl and the Combine so he could stay at DE in the NFL. I think he is a good kid who came out too early, he's not physically ready to play in the NFL. Further, he didn't impress me in the Rose Bowl, which was the only game I got to see of him. Right now he appears to be too one dimensional. The very same negatives people throw out for Barwin apply to him, with less athletic talent and fewer intangibles in mitigation.

E.Brown - Again someone who just pins his ears back and goes. I saw one game and that's what I saw. His profile on NFL Draft Scout is the most detailed analysis of his game I've found and it questions his ability to play in space as a LB. His run defense score is much lower than Barwins, when I look at the numbers side by side Barwin is a more balanced prospect with more room to develop and improve. The profile suggests his best fit is some place like Indy playing like Dwight Freeney - not a good fit for NE.

Orakpo - Again, Barwin the first year wonder is a more consistent and balanced player across the board if you believe the analysis of NFLDS. The brief clips of him testing in space on Path to the Draft suggest he's scary stiff - which isn't good.

Matthews - Didn't start until his redshirt senior year, I can't name any of the players he was trapped behind at USC when it comes to dazzling NFL careers. He needs at least 10 more pounds to play well as a NE OLB and I question how easy that will be for him to make and maintain. The biggest knock on him is being trained in a Pete Carrol system where he's taught to run around blockers and to try and make a play on speed alone. He just projects better as a 4-3 WLB. 4.5 sacks last season despite five years of working inside the USC system, I just don't think he's that effective as pass rusher.

Cushing - He's the best NE 3-4 LB prospect coming out of USC, and I think he's another bad fit who projects better as a 4-3 Sam. He needs to be heavier for NE, and the reports of his supplement use and training don't encourage me to believe he could make and easily maintain his weight. 3 sacks his senior year, and he reportedly was removed on passing downs...

English - I watched him in a couple games, good pass rush, decent against the run, looked too slow and stiff to be very effective in coverage. May have to move to ILB and be a two down player.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

This is exactly what i'm talking about: "He ran this, he got pushed around" I know he got pushed around at the senior bowl, but in games??? if you truly have seen games of him play with my glasses on, you would see a FOOTBALL player. Someone with instincts and a certain package of qualities.

I didn't watch a lot of USC last season, but I've been watching for Maualuga the past two seasons given all the hype for his playing skill, especially after the Oscar Lua crush that swept this board... You see 'instinct,' I see hesitance. You see game speed, I see a player who sits back and waits for others to absorb the blockers while he looks for the ball, then he turns into a missle in 'fire and forget' mode that has just as many misses as big hits because he doesn't play under control. You see strength and power, I see him disappear the moment a blocker gets his hands on him, his Rose Bowl this year was pathetic, Maiava is a much better LB for NE compared to Maualuga - he I'd use as a S/LB hybrid at least. Maualuga face plants 'every blasted time' someone cut blocks him, EVERY time, he absolutely sucks getting through trash. People want another Ted Johnson knocking OL backwards or another Bruschi disappearing amidst the OL and popping out of some crease to make the stick on the RB in the hole - Maualuga does none of that on "my" TV screen. I will say the guy does a very good job of playing an underneath zone and getting his hands on passes trying to loop over his head, but in two years of catching the occasional USC game on TV, I have never seen this guy go head to head with an OL and win. I'll take the kid who has done that on my TV screen, whether it's Barwin for OLB or TCU's Jason Phillips at ILB.

We're not looking at the complete package here, neither with Barwin. But the guys can bring certain aspects of their game to complement this defense. BB always looks at guys who can fill a role on this team, not to take on all the duties.

Sure, but in watching Mike Vrabel, Willie McGinest, Rosie Colvin, Adalius, Pierre, Tully, all play OLB for NE, I see Connor Barwin in that role and say he's a natural. Last year I really wanted Chris Long to drop because I could see him playing OLB with a WillieMac power game, shutting down the run, powering through blockers on the pass rush, and doing 'okay' in zone coverage. Barwin makes Long look flat, he's got speed and quickness Long doesn't, Barwin knocked down 7 passes because he finds the ball even while fighting with an OT - I've seen him push off the tackle he was hand fighting and sky to bat down a pass. I've seen him stack up TEs and OTs and fight through them to make a tackle on a RB. On "my" TV screen he's also a "football" player, and one who does the things I've seen Vrabel and Co. doing for years in NE uniforms. That's why I see him as a better "fit."

I personally feel like Maualuga is a player who can complement Mayo and fill the footsteps of Bruschi. I've seen alot of USC games this year and i value more into the games, than into running a 40 time on a shaky hamstring. Clearly we don't agree on how good he is. I think he's a mid to late first round guy, but players always excel or fit better in certain systems. I just feel like Maualuga fits our need and system and i think he would excel here. Therefore moving up to grab him doesn't seem to me like a reach, because he's the player you seek.

I appreciate that he's the player you seek. I also appreciate that you've watched him and saw the qualities you want to see in a NE ILB. I wish the two of us could sit down and watch Coach's tape together and point out what we're both seeing over a couple brews and munchies - I'd probably being throwing popcorn at the TV and making the dog fatter, but we'd have fun.

I just think Barwin is a high risk player because of the overhype on numbers, instead of actual football.

I first posted about Barwin at the end of November, well before any "numbers" came in. I'm pretty sure that I've got at least one pre-Combine post valuing him as a first round worthy talent. The numbers were just proof of what I saw in actual games.

So what i'm basically trying to say here is that i don't put value into the analysis of some ESPN losers, but i already thought during the season (even last year), that Rey would be a good fit for the Pats. I konw we don't know what the pats board looks like and for all we know he drafts Ramses Barden at 23, but if i just look at position need and what we need specifically at the position, than i feel Maualuga is a good fit.

Fair enough, if I was pulling the trigger Maualuga wouldn't even be on my board. I'd be praying for Rex Ryan to draft him at #17, because I could slip Dan Koppen out on him and leave him buried in the turf. To each his own. :rocker:

 

[mayoclinic]

Fair enough, if I was pulling the trigger Maualuga wouldn't even be on my board. I'd be praying for Rex Ryan to draft him at #17, because I could slip Dan Koppen out on him and leave him buried in the turf. To each his own. :rocker:

Not that it will ever happen, but I'd gladly trade #47 to the Jets for David Harris. They could take Maualuga at #17 and pair him with Bart Scott. I'd be quite happy with Harris at SILB next to Mayo.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Again this is all opinion. I think that some other "Jack" prospects would do just as well in our system. I think that right now what this team lacks is Pass Rush. I think that we could get a pass rusher that can hold his own in the run department and at the same time be able to drop back and cover without major problems. It really isnt a knock on Barwin but rather more insight to some of the other options. I feel like too many people have their minds and hearts set at Barwin at #23. What if we were to take Everette Brown and Barwin were to go to the Phins? I and some others would be happy. You and some others would be upset. All im trying to say is none of us are going to make the pick so we should just look at all the possible options and Let the BB and company make the Pick that they fell is right and support it, not put all your eggs in one basket and watch it come crashing down if we go another route with #23.

I was seriously bummed when BB bundled a third and second to take Chad Jackson - I watched the Eagles take another "raw" defensive end from a small school, Chris Gocong. He's only been the starting Sam on a Jim Johnson pressure defense the past two years. The next year I watch BB sit tight and let the Eagles grab Stewart Bradley in the third round about four picks or so before NE picked - I later read a Reiss note commenting on how unhappy the draft room at Gillette was over that move. Bradley took over the MLB job as a rookie and has been super.

Losing Barwin will be par for the course if that happens, I'll survive and probably be cussing everytime I see him starting for another team. The good news out of that heartbreak, the Pats drafted my #1 ILB candidate last year, he wound up playing pretty good. They eventually obtained three of my OLB prospects - Guyton, Craig, and Robertson. Robertson was waived, but Pioli snatched him up, which means Craig must have been playing pretty well in practice..and we know about Guyton. I liked David Harris and Lamar Woodley as second rounders, both have done an adequate job. I'm fairly satisfied that I've got a rudimentary grasp of what will make a good NE LB. If Everette Brown were drafted by BB, I'd shrug and watch how he was used in preseason to try and learn what I may have missed, I had to do that with Crable whom I did not have on my board, but mostly for inconsistency reports in draftnik profiles. Redd wasn't on my board for his character/maturity issues that got him kicked off UVA's team. I'll live, I'll learn, I'll fight with you and mav and have fun doing it and we'll all be hooting and hollering at our TVs come the Fall. :rocker:

 

[Isaac]

This thread is about BB philosophy yet it is missing one of the most dominant themes of this philosophy--versatility. The question is whether the team considers Barwin as a legitimate active-roster #3 TE. Barwin has noted that his meetings with the team have been with offensive coaches as much as defensive. If he is a #3 TE, it saves the team an active and game-day roster spot--this is not to be taken lightly. Even if he is ranked similarly to other OLB prospects or as an OLB is considered something like mid-second round value, this attribute could easily put his value at #23 to the Patriots.

He's also a stand-out special teamer.

(Of course he could be a #23 value even without the TE attribute, if he is otherwise rated higher than the other candidates.)

 

[Lockdown06]

If those scouts are working for the NE Patriots I'd be more interested in their opinion.

Maybin - The kid reportedly needed to work to add 20 pounds between the Rose Bowl and the Combine so he could stay at DE in the NFL. I think he is a good kid who came out too early, he's not physically ready to play in the NFL. Further, he didn't impress me in the Rose Bowl, which was the only game I got to see of him. Right now he appears to be too one dimensional. The very same negatives people throw out for Barwin apply to him, with less athletic talent and fewer intangibles in mitigation.

E.Brown - Again someone who just pins his ears back and goes. I saw one game and that's what I saw. His profile on NFL Draft Scout is the most detailed analysis of his game I've found and it questions his ability to play in space as a LB. His run defense score is much lower than Barwins, when I look at the numbers side by side Barwin is a more balanced prospect with more room to develop and improve. The profile suggests his best fit is some place like Indy playing like Dwight Freeney - not a good fit for NE.

Orakpo - Again, Barwin the first year wonder is a more consistent and balanced player across the board if you believe the analysis of NFLDS. The brief clips of him testing in space on Path to the Draft suggest he's scary stiff - which isn't good.

Matthews - Didn't start until his redshirt senior year, I can't name any of the players he was trapped behind at USC when it comes to dazzling NFL careers. He needs at least 10 more pounds to play well as a NE OLB and I question how easy that will be for him to make and maintain. The biggest knock on him is being trained in a Pete Carrol system where he's taught to run around blockers and to try and make a play on speed alone. He just projects better as a 4-3 WLB. 4.5 sacks last season despite five years of working inside the USC system, I just don't think he's that effective as pass rusher.

Cushing - He's the best NE 3-4 LB prospect coming out of USC, and I think he's another bad fit who projects better as a 4-3 Sam. He needs to be heavier for NE, and the reports of his supplement use and training don't encourage me to believe he could make and easily maintain his weight. 3 sacks his senior year, and he reportedly was removed on passing downs...

English - I watched him in a couple games, good pass rush, decent against the run, looked too slow and stiff to be very effective in coverage. May have to move to ILB and be a two down player.

I don't want to cause instigation or anything, and this might be me completely showing my ignorance, but wouldn't matthews have backed up Rivers?

 

[mayoclinic]

I was seriously bummed when BB bundled a third and second to take Chad Jackson - I watched the Eagles take another "raw" defensive end from a small school, Chris Gocong. He's only been the starting Sam on a Jim Johnson pressure defense the past two years. The next year I watch BB sit tight and let the Eagles grab Stewart Bradley in the third round about four picks or so before NE picked - I later read a Reiss note commenting on how unhappy the draft room at Gillette was over that move. Bradley took over the MLB job as a rookie and has been super.

Losing Barwin will be par for the course if that happens, I'll survive and probably be cussing everytime I see him starting for another team. The good news out of that heartbreak, the Pats drafted my #1 ILB candidate last year, he wound up playing pretty good. They eventually obtained three of my OLB prospects - Guyton, Craig, and Robertson. Robertson was waived, but Pioli snatched him up, which means Craig must have been playing pretty well in practice..and we know about Guyton. I liked David Harris and Lamar Woodley as second rounders, both have done an adequate job. I'm fairly satisfied that I've got a rudimentary grasp of what will make a good NE LB. If Everette Brown were drafted by BB, I'd shrug and watch how he was used in preseason to try and learn what I may have missed, I had to do that with Crable whom I did not have on my board, but mostly for inconsistency reports in draftnik profiles. Redd wasn't on my board for his character/maturity issues that got him kicked off UVA's team. I'll live, I'll learn, I'll fight with you and mav and have fun doing it and we'll all be hooting and hollering at our TVs come the Fall. :rocker:

If Philly takes Barwin at 21 (or if we pass at 23 and they take him at 28) I'll be steamed. I was annoyed at Bradley. I didn't like the Jackson trade either, but I didn't have Gocong as squarley in my sights as you (I did prefer Greg Jennings at WR though).

If we miss out on Barwin or any other prospect, we'll all move on.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't want to cause instigation or anything, and this might be me completely showing my ignorance, but wouldn't matthews have backed up Rivers?

He may have, I never followed USC that closely, but Rivers, like Matthews, started as a Safety was moved to OLB. Rivers played around 235, he was 241 for the Combine, then down to 233 or something for his Pro Day which was when I pulled him off my board and bumped Mayo up to the top of the ILB list. Matthews saw time at DE as a reserve and starter last season, so he's got much more versatility and deserves to be in the discussion, it's just that Petey Carroll really uses his LBs so much differently than BB does, so when I see Matthews play I see his speed, but not his power - and power is a key component in NE football if you're going to win the Line of Scrimmage. Thanks for the comment on Rivers, it's a good comparison to a guy we were discussing as an ILB this time last year.