Reiss on Wolf’s draft philosophy

[upstater1]

I think Belichick looked at free agency the same way, and that was his real weakness in both areas. He was always looking for the best values, instead of looking at the best players. This also played into his preferences for special teams value, as he would think that getting the DB or Receiver who was a very good special teams player mattered more than just getting to the better receiver or defensive back. This is different however, than a point that was brought up in a different discussion about Wolf’s preference for receivers who were good returners, which isn’t as much about having them as returners for the team, as it it is a belief that receivers who are dangerous returners are going to be much better YAC. guys than those who don’t have that open field ability. Whereas Belichick’s view on values related more to choosing players who could play multiple roles for them. And while there is value in that, it can also lead to you taking lesser players at their positions, but who can fill more roles. Hopefully Wolf sees more value in just taking the best players at their position instead of always looking for more versatile players.

While I agree he ran the draft for players to fit the system, free agency in the NFL is just a weird grab all. You have to wonder why players are free agents in the first place. Judon, Algholor, Peppers, Mills, Henry, Jonnu, I think all of these players qualify as players you just grab for lack of any other solutions. JuJu too. Judon turned out to be a huge plus, but he could've easily been a bust since setting the edge is not a strength for him.

What I'm trying to say is that in FA they just grab the best players they can who are willing to sign without stringing up the tam with a long term contract.

Gilmore is maybe the only exception to this rule. Even Revis had a short contract.

 

[Ivan]

While I agree he ran the draft for players to fit the system, free agency in the NFL is just a weird grab all. You have to wonder why players are free agents in the first place. Judon, Algholor, Peppers, Mills, Henry, Jonnu, I think all of these players qualify as players you just grab for lack of any other solutions. JuJu too. Judon turned out to be a huge plus, but he could've easily been a bust since setting the edge is not a strength for him.

What I'm trying to say is that in FA they just grab the best players they can who are willing to sign without stringing up the tam with a long term contract.

Gilmore is maybe the only exception to this rule. Even Revis had a short contract.

I’m looking at free agency a little differently this year, but it has to do with value, not in terms of individuals so much as position. RB in particular. While I realize you can get RB ‘s in the mid rounds of the Draft, when I saw that you can get Jacobs or Barkley for $10 million I couldn’t believe it. And the same goes for Safety. If Tampa Bay has to franchise Mayfield I would jump all over Winfield at 16 million AAV. IMO he’s the best player in the secondary in football, and I would love to see him in their defensive backfield. That’s 2 positions where you get either the best player, or in that discussion, at a really good price. Whereas I wouldn’t pay a Michael Pittman top dollar because while he’s a good WR he is not elite, so you would be paying top money to a less than top player out of need. So in that case I would look to cap cuts and the Draft. Although I would love to have a top WR I wouldn’t give any of them 30 million a year.

 

[upstater1]

I’m looking at free agency a little differently this year, but it has to do with value, not in terms of individuals so much as position. RB in particular. While I realize you can get RB ‘s in the mid rounds of the Draft, when I saw that you can get Jacobs or Barkley for $10 million I couldn’t believe it. And the same goes for Safety. If Tampa Bay has to franchise Mayfield I would jump all over Winfield at 16 million AAV. IMO he’s the best player in the secondary in football, and I would love to see him in their defensive backfield. That’s 2 positions where you get either the best player, or in that discussion, at a really good price. Whereas I wouldn’t pay a Michael Pittman top dollar because while he’s a good WR he is not elite, so you would be paying top money to a less than top player out of need. So in that case I would look to cap cuts and the Draft. Although I would love to have a top WR I wouldn’t give any of them 30 million a year.

I agree with all of this. But now everyone can see why the Patriots struggled at QB, LT and WR over the last few years. There are no easy fixes. These players don't materialize out of thin air.

 

[signbabybrady]

I’m aware of that, and I agree with that in general. Belichick was known for putting a a great deal of emphasis on psychological characteristics of players, and things like leadership mattered greatly to him in team building. However that can also be a problem if you continually pass on the better athlete or player for the guy who fits your profile better. On the one hand you don’t want a team full of narcissists, but on the other you don’t want a team that isn’t as athletic as the other teams you face. For good or bad I think Belichick made the final call on personnel, be that draft or free agency, and I think he made a lot of mistakes by overemphasizing the qualities he was looking for over better players. He still brought them great success, but I’m glad he’s not picking the groceries anymore.

I think the real trick is the QB I don't think there is anyway to game that system very little works without the QB. I think Bill's philosophies very likely would work better than most with a number of very good QBs not just Brady unfortunately Mac and the tailend of Cam were certainly not good enough.

 

[upstater1]

I think the real trick is the QB I don't think there is anyway to game that system very little works without the QB. I think Bill's philosophies very likely would work better than most with a number of very good QBs not just Brady unfortunately Mac and the tailend of Cam were certainly not good enough.

It's really a matter of taking care of the ball. I think this was learned with the Giants. Something that carried over from Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler. Game managers. So you see the same thing in Cleveland with the move from Kosar to Testaverde. Even in New England it was the same with Matt Cassel and the 4 games between Brisset/Garoppolo. He could win with good QBs as long as they weren't splattering the ball everywhere. The record shows that. The losses piled up with very specific QBs like Cam, Mac and Kosar.

 

[stardawg]

I don't agree. Harry is almost out of the league. No amount of developing would have turning him into a competent WR. Thornton is on ice as thin as his frame. Other than being on IR, he hasn't shown much.

Agreed both are busts!

 

[Ivan]

I think the real trick is the QB I don't think there is anyway to game that system very little works without the QB. I think Bill's philosophies very likely would work better than most with a number of very good QBs not just Brady unfortunately Mac and the tailend of Cam were certainly not good enough.

Agree completely. And while the “ game manager” tag on Brady was intended to be derogatory, it was actually one of the biggest reasons he went on to become the GOAT. Belichick always knew he could construct any overall game strategy and Brady could run the offensive side of the game to fit perfectly with what Belichick wanted to achieve. Most of the great QB’s had one speed, score as many points as they could as fast as they could. Brady, on the other hand, could go into a game against a high powered offense, where Belichick wanted to minimize the number of opposing drive opportunities to say 8 drives, instead of the 12 + they were used to, and take the air out of the ball with long slow drives that ate up big amounts of the clock, and left the opposing QB frustrated and in a hurry, which often led to mistakes. Or if Belichick knew the defense was going to have trouble keeping the scoring down Brady could ramp it up with no huddle drives and play a high scoring game. Whatever was called for that week as an overall strategy, Brady could run the offense in the best way to fit that weeks opponent.

As for their current situation to me the most important thing is to get your franchise QB, and you have to use whatever you best opportunities are to get them. This year they have a top 3 pick, with 3 QB’s worth that pick, so for me this is their best shot to get that QB, and they should absolutely take the QB at 3, regardless of which one it is. Then sign a free agent to a mid level or lower level free agent deal to give that QB the time to acclimate, and the Patriots the time to fix the OL, and upgrade screening positions. .

 

[upstater1]

Agree completely. And while the “ game manager” tag on Brady was intended to be derogatory, it was actually one of the biggest reasons he went on to become the GOAT. Belichick always knew he could construct any overall game strategy and Brady could run the offensive side of the game to fit perfectly with what Belichick wanted to achieve. Most of the great QB’s had one speed, score as many points as they could as fast as they could. Brady, on the other hand, could go into a game against a high powered offense, where Belichick wanted to minimize the number of opposing drive opportunities to say 8 drives, instead of the 12 + they were used to, and take the air out of the ball with long slow drives that ate up big amounts of the clock, and left the opposing QB frustrated and in a hurry, which often led to mistakes. Or if Belichick knew the defense was going to have trouble keeping the scoring down Brady could ramp it up with no huddle drives and play a high scoring game. Whatever was called for that week as an overall strategy, Brady could run the offense in the best way to fit that weeks opponent.

As for their current situation to me the most important thing is to get your franchise QB, and you have to use whatever you best opportunities are to get them. This year they have a top 3 pick, with 3 QB’s worth that pick, so for me this is their best shot to get that QB, and they should absolutely take the QB at 3, regardless of which one it is. Then sign a free agent to a mid level or lower level free agent deal to give that QB the time to acclimate, and the Patriots the time to fix the OL, and upgrade screening positions. .

Another thing they did is they threw short early in games to open areas as a way to get the opposition tired. It works like a boxing metaphor: work the body early, wear them down. Brady not only took care of the ball, but they worked open areas religiously.

Seems easy to do, and you wonder why many teams don't do it. 2 reasons: one, it's actually hard for a QB to work short areas with timing and touch. Two, many offensive coaches operate like Arians, just chuck it downfield.

I watched every single Bucs game in '20, and it was clear Brady was struggling with Arians for the 1st half of the season. I read that they were moving toward plays that Brady liked more about halfway through, and sure enough that offense started clicking.

You can see the subtle shifts happening in Denver when the Broncos got Welker. Suddenly, Peyton Manning became a fantastic QB in '13, better than he ever was, and practically unstoppable. This is why Belichick had such a huge appreciation of Adam Gase.

Josh Allen under Brian Daboll solved a lot of his problems by going to the short game in '21 and taking what the defense gave him. They tortured the Patriots by throwing underneath for YAC. As soon as Daboll left, the short game was gone, and the Bills became a lot less explosive.

One of the reasons I wasn't fully panicked in the '16 Super Bowl against the Falcons is that the Patriots actually drove down the field for 3 long drives in the 1st half and they had the Atlanta D huffing for air. The result was a FG, a pick 6 and a Legarette Blount fumble. But the drives inflicted some damage on that Atlanta D. It was not a surprise to see them so gassed in the 4th

 

[goheels22002]

We'll get to see on Thornton, but I was high on Strong from his college tape, and was fairly disappointed to see him have absolutely no wiggle when he ran, and he ran high and went down easy. I caught him in Cleveland. I think of him as a failed pick.

On Thornton, I don't think we have the QB to take advantage of him.

On Tyquan Thornton (and this goes for Kendrick Bourne, JJSS, Hunter Henry, Demario Douglas and Tre Nixon), the Patriots needs a QB who can "throw them open" as opposed to Mac and Zappe who threw to open receivers. The windows close too quickly in the NFL to see an open receiver and throw it there unless coverages have been blown. A QB who can throw the ball to the spot where the receiver needs to be in the time it takes for the ball to get there can succeed with the guys on the roster (or who I hope they re-sign.)

The Patriots still need a top shelf WR and TE to go with the current group as they work through free agency and the draft. The skill position talent is in need of a serious upgrade. But the guys they have are good, have speed and quickness (especially a healthy JJSS), and form a good pass catching core. I hope they re-sign Zeke Elliot as well.

Drake Maye can do the job, but he'll need a solid offensive line in front of him. Nobody was going to succeed at QB with the OL they've had for the last two years, particularly the tackles.

 

[1960Pats]

“Nobody said it was all Brady” is BS… start there.

I thought it was a discussion about who was more important, not that Bill wasn't at all. I think what happened is that Brady went on to win right away and made the discussion a little more one sided.

I dont mind whatever wolf is doing. He is doing what he knows best. But again even in this case - the direct shots at the old system and bill which yielded 6 titles is un necessary. It almost seems like the mandate from the ownership is to trash and distance from what was there in the building.
Yes we have had poor drafted players like harry etc. But what about the good ones with the same grading system ? Gronk, wilfork, hightower ,barmore, owenu,dugger , mayo(!). Packers had 2 HOF QBs for 25 yrs and won two titles and reach 3 (?) SBs . Not bad but not really amazing either.

The shots at Bill are terrible. I think it's a petty move by Kraft.

The last time I felt that way about an owner was when John Henry had a reunion of the 2004 Red Sox and didn't invite Curt Schilling. I remember commenting at the time that Bob Kraft would never be so petty. It looks like I was wrong.

 

[signbabybrady]

I thought it was a discussion about who was more important, not that Bill wasn't at all. I think what happened is that Brady went on to win right away and made the discussion a little more one sided.

I think it's pretty obvious I'll defend Bill as hard as anyone but I'm not sure anyone is out here suggesting that coaches are more important than players.

 

[State]

Jordan Richards was borderline draftable because of his limited athleticism. But BB foolishly took him at the end of the second round in 2015. Most here deferred to Belichick and castigated me for my complaint.

Richards had such a good character and established leadership skills, Bill couldn’t help himself.

The scouting department must have lost its sh-t.

I knew from one play in the 2014 Rose Bowl that the heralded Richards just didn’t have it.

 

[State]

In fairness to them Strange is an exceptional athlete, and they had lost Thuney and needed to protect Jones from pressure up the middle,

I guess you didn’t spend much time in the draft forum that year. Many of us discussed Zach Tom, whose scores were eerily similar to Strange’s except for a handful of fewer bench presses. In 2022 Tom was the third ranked OL guy based on athleticism.

But Tom, who’s been Green Bay’s starting RT, had played higher level competition (ACC) and was more versatile (LT and center). But he was taken three rounds LATER then the suspect Cole Strange pick.

 

[Ivan]

I guess you didn’t spend much time in the draft forum that year. Many of us discussed Zach Tom, whose scores were eerily similar to Strange’s except for a handful of fewer bench presses. In 2022 Tom was the third ranked OL guy based on athleticism.

But Tom, who’s been Green Bay’s starting RT, had played higher level competition (ACC) and was more versatile (LT and center). But he was taken three rounds LATER then the suspect Cole Strange pick.

No, as I said in an earlier post I kind of gave up on following the draft closely around 2010, for personal reasons, and because I burned out on the way Belichick drafted. I’m paying more attention this year because of all the changes that are going on, but I don’t ever see myself going back to days of proxy lists for 7 round mocks. I will probably look at the first four rounds or so, and call it good. I work a lot, and try to spend as much time outside as possible when I’m not working. So I really only have an hour or so most evenings to read on things like the draft.

 

[1960Pats]

I think it's pretty obvious I'll defend Bill as hard as anyone but I'm not sure anyone is out here suggesting that coaches are more important than players.

He didn't say that and neither did I. He said that Pats fans were claiming that Bill had zero responsibility for the dynasty. I don't agree.

 

[signbabybrady]

He didn't say that and neither did I. He said that Pats fans were claiming that Bill had zero responsibility for the dynasty. I don't agree.

There are plenty on here he do hold that opinion sadly

 

[Ivan]

Last year I think Gonzo, White, and Mapu were all BPA picks. The Pats have almost always been BPA although there were some exceptions, like when we chose LTs or TEs in the first round.

I remember reading in War Room that one of the factors they considered was whose job would the pick be able to take, so there must have been times where they were passing on BPA because they wouldn’t be playing much, if at all, for it to be worth the pick.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I remember reading in War Room that one of the factors they considered was whose job would the pick be able to take, so there must have been times where they were passing on BPA because they wouldn’t be playing much, if at all, for it to be worth the pick.

That seems right. With Sow behind Onwenu, and Mapu behind Duggar, I am amazed they don't spend their cap dollars on other FAs where there are holes with no real backup.

 

[Ivan]

That seems right. With Sow behind Onwenu, and Mapu behind Duggar, I am amazed they don't spend their cap dollars on other FAs where there are holes with no real backup.

It will be interesting to see what their offers to them are?

 

[Wozzy]

I thought it was a discussion about who was more important, not that Bill wasn't at all. I think what happened is that Brady went on to win right away and made the discussion a little more one sided.

Firstly it's an exercise for small minds. You can't win a ring without a complete team, last I checked any and every QB in history who won a single ring had great coaches and teammates. There's never been a QB throughout history who took a bad team to a championship game and won it... I doubt an "average" team has won it. But I can rattle off 12 merely average/good QB's who have won rings in my lifetime.

And a player going to an already good/great team like Brady, Lebron or Roger Clemens is simpler than rebuilding and turning an entire program around, which is akin to turning a massive oil tanker 180 degrees in a bay... apples/oranges.

And who was more important?

BB drafted and developed Brady, Tom didn't just appear out of the mist like excalibur. The guy found and molded Brady.

And he didn't just develop Brady, he developed the entire team around him. They don't win in 2001 without Seymour.

It's a player game, BB found and developed the players.

The shots at Bill are terrible. I think it's a petty move by Kraft.

I don't see much, beyond an organization/owner trying to wrestle back power for himself. There will be time to celebrate BB after he retires.

The last time I felt that way about an owner was when John Henry had a reunion of the 2004 Red Sox and didn't invite Curt Schilling. I remember commenting at the time that Bob Kraft would never be so petty. It looks like I was wrong.

I think people are hyper sensitive and reactionary. Middle aged to young Patriots fans are so outside their comfort zone for the first time in over two decades. Maybe the organization is as well and Mayo is certainly green at the job.

Fans don't know how to act, and the guy who used to absorb all the slings and arrows is gone.