Reiss on Wolf’s draft philosophy

[1960Pats]

That last paragraph is a bit funny. “Versatile OL & WR’s with YAC/ST ability is essentially what NE has always been known for during the BB/TB era (outside of winning).

What was Matthew Slater's YAC?

 

[1960Pats]

He won the Johnny Unitas Award this season, which is a leadership Award. And while I’m still open minded on the debate between Daniels and Maye I’m not going to take anything you have to say about him seriously, because it’s as biased as it gets. The fact that you are knocking how “ articulate” he is, and suggesting he isn’t tough demonstrates a personal bias against him that makes your take irrelevant. JJ McCarthy looks like a sophomore in high school next to Daniels, but he’s “ articulate” so let’s use the pick on him. Seriously Sam, that’s some really weak **** you are trotting out. What’s next, are you going to have them take Lamar Jackson's 2 MVP Awards back because he wasn’t articulate enough at the awards ceremony?

Unitas came to speak at my HS in the mid sixties. He was great.

I know nothing about any of the college players except for what I've seen here, but if someone has an issue with a player's intelligence that could be a factor. The NYFL is not like it was for Unitas. The defenses are far more complicated now and a big brain is very helpful, if not necessary.

 

[1960Pats]

I used to admire Ron Wolf's work a lot, and you can still see his imprint on the Packers (in the NFL) today. They do seem to draft the best players available, at least take a lot of players on my personal board, and take superior athletes overall.

Where the Packers seem to falter after that, is either in player development or on the field execution... coaching. I know some here believe Tom Brady was responsible for everything and coaching just takes care of itself once you have a QB, but that's a total load of garbage. Despite having superior QB play the entire time, the Packers only played in Super Bowls and won a single championship when Mike Holmgren was running the ship or later after another coach failed and Wolf's heir apparent Ted Thompson hired Mike McCarthy as head coach, Joe Philbin to run the offense and Dom Capers to run the defense. That's the lone championship of Aaron Rogers long storied career.

The Patriots hopefully become that uber drafting machine, but they also need Mayo and co to become an uber development team... they need both.

Nobody said it was all Brady. It took both of them and a few more players to do it. To me the argument has always been about players vs coaches. You can have a coach of various levels win but not without impactful players. Who had less of an impact on the KC SB win, Mahomes, Chris Jones or Andy Reid?

 

[1960Pats]

You are correct, there are no quick fixes for the team. I hope the powers that balance the urgent need to turn things around ASAP with a longer term view that will ultimately lead to competing for super bowls. I hope the team takes a page from 2001 and allocates some amount of FA money to bring in veteran leadership to help create the culture to develop the young players. These guys do not need to be front line starters to add value. Get the star players in the draft to control costs.

For reference here is the 2001 FA class - cornerback Terrell Buckley, guard Mike Compton, linebacker Bryan Cox, fullback Marc Edwards, quarterback Damon Huard, linebacker Larry Izzo, receiver David Patten, linebacker Roman Phifer, defensive end Anthony Pleasant, running back Antowain Smith, and linebacker Mike Vrabel.

The 2001 Pats have shown that quick fixes are indeed possible. Of course there probably won't be as big a haul now as there was back then but the team doesn't need as much. They need a lot of help on offense but not much on defense.

 

[Wozzy]

Good training for the Patriots offense.

Every year is a new season with a different team.

 

[Wozzy]

Nobody said it was all Brady. It took both of them and a few more players to do it. To me the argument has always been about players vs coaches. You can have a coach of various levels win but not without impactful players. Who had less of an impact on the KC SB win, Mahomes, Chris Jones or Andy Reid?

“Nobody said it was all Brady” is BS… start there.

 

[SVN]

I dont mind whatever wolf is doing. He is doing what he knows best. But again even in this case - the direct shots at the old system and bill which yielded 6 titles is un necessary. It almost seems like the mandate from the ownership is to trash and distance from what was there in the building.
Yes we have had poor drafted players like harry etc. But what about the good ones with the same grading system ? Gronk, wilfork, hightower ,barmore, owenu,dugger , mayo(!). Packers had 2 HOF QBs for 25 yrs and won two titles and reach 3 (?) SBs . Not bad but not really amazing either.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

The 2001 Pats have shown that quick fixes are indeed possible. Of course there probably won't be as big a haul now as there was back then but the team doesn't need as much. They need a lot of help on offense but not much on defense.

You have a good point that the 2001 Pats were a fast turn around from the year before. At least to me, there is a difference between teams tactically signing a few name players in an attempt to catch lightening in a bottle and a team that was built strategically that happened to gel more quickly than expected. The fact that the Patriots continued to be good in subsequent years supports the idea that that team was built for long term success. If the Patriots are good next year, I want it to be due to a strategic plan, not taking bets on players to make a splash.

 

[Uptown]

What was Matthew Slater's YAC?

Literally 5 yards lol

Matthew Slater Career stats 2024 | New England Patriots Wide Receiver

Get the latest career stats updates for Matthew Slater includes scoring, rushing, defensive and receiving stats. Discover key performance metrics and achievements of this player on sportskeeda

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[signbabybrady]

What was Matthew Slater's YAC?

46 yards per catch

 

[venecol]

I dont mind whatever wolf is doing. He is doing what he knows best. But again even in this case - the direct shots at the old system and bill which yielded 6 titles is un necessary. It almost seems like the mandate from the ownership is to trash and distance from what was there in the building.
Yes we have had poor drafted players like harry etc. But what about the good ones with the same grading system ? Gronk, wilfork, hightower ,barmore, owenu,dugger , mayo(!). Packers had 2 HOF QBs for 25 yrs and won two titles and reach 3 (?) SBs . Not bad but not really amazing either.

Not sure why what he said bothers you. He was asked a question and answered candidly. I doubt there was an intent to "take a shot." Everyone is so used to not getting anything out of Foxboro, that now when they open up, it's a problem. I like them telling the fans what's happening with the team.

On another note, as fans, we get to appreciate things w/o any worry about their internal workings. Team was winning SBs, so whatever Bill was doing must've been good. But imagine going to work every day in a rough AF environment where you don't know when you're going to get pounced on. I think that entire building breathed a sigh of relief once Bill left. Sounds like the dude was toxic AF. We'll be hearing from the players in that docuseries about how it was like. Them telling it like it was is not taking shots, just speaking the truth.

 

[Zuma]

Not sure why what he said bothers you. He was asked a question and answered candidly. I doubt there was an intent to "take a shot." Everyone is so used to not getting anything out of Foxboro, that now when they open up, it's a problem. I like them telling the fans what's happening with the team.

On another note, as fans, we get to appreciate things w/o any worry about their internal workings. Team was winning SBs, so whatever Bill was doing must've been good. But imagine going to work every day in a rough AF environment where you don't know when you're going to get pounced on. I think that entire building breathed a sigh of relief once Bill left. Sounds like the dude was toxic AF. We'll be hearing from the players in that docuseries about how it was like. Them telling it like it was is not taking shots, just speaking the truth.

It’s odd to hear the team / Wolf speak so candidly. Us fans and some in the media are going to struggle with it. To me it’s a breath of fresh air!

 

[signbabybrady]

Not sure why what he said bothers you. He was asked a question and answered candidly. I doubt there was an intent to "take a shot." Everyone is so used to not getting anything out of Foxboro, that now when they open up, it's a problem. I like them telling the fans what's happening with the team.

On another note, as fans, we get to appreciate things w/o any worry about their internal workings. Team was winning SBs, so whatever Bill was doing must've been good. But imagine going to work every day in a rough AF environment where you don't know when you're going to get pounced on. I think that entire building breathed a sigh of relief once Bill left. Sounds like the dude was toxic AF. We'll be hearing from the players in that docuseries about how it was like. Them telling it like it was is not taking shots, just speaking the truth.

 

[venecol]

So much for it wasn't Bill making such and such pick. Per Wolf, the old process neglected scouts input and focused on role instead of value. Upstater you can give it up now, all previous drafts were on Bill, yes incl. Mac, Thornton, and Jack Jones.

Eliot Wolf on scouting/setting the draft board: "We changed the grading system. It's a little bit more similar to what we did in Green Bay. The previous Patriots system was more 'this is what the role is' and this is more kind of value-based. I think it makes it a lot easier for scouts to rate guys and put them in a stack of 'this guy's the best, this guy is the worst, and everything in between falls into place.' Rather than sort of more nuanced approaches. I just think it accounts value better and also makes it easier for the scouts - in the fall and spring - to determine where guys will get drafted. ...

"To me, it's a little bit less about the grading scale and more about the process that we put in place. This process is a lot more collaborative. We hear from the scouts more. We're going to be able to determine, together, what is the best thing for the team at the end of the day."

 

[dtbrks]

I like the words that were said but in the end, that's all they are SO FAR, just words. They've won nothing, let's give them a chance to do something but again, they haven't proven anything yet

 

[Ivan]

Talent gets you regular season wins. Then they get to the playoffs and coaching matters a lot. It's because many of the playoff teams have a lot of talent. So what team gets over the hump? If you look at all the great QBs (Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Josh Allen) it's not necessarily that. Brady and Mahomes make it seem like that's the reason. But if you look at what Andy Reid did in this year's Super Bowl, it's unfathomable that hardly anyone mentions his brilliance. He absolutely outcoached Shanahan.

The Patriots win over the Seahawks was a great example of this. The Seahawks had a better team that season, but the Patriots game plan, to just throw immediately underneath coverage and nickel and dime them to death all day worked perfectly. Brady forced of the ball before they could get to him all day long, and it made them nuts. No coach has ever been better in a one and done situation than Belichick was. I hope Mayo learned those lessons well, because he’s going to need them to win Lombardi’s.

 

[Ivan]

So much for it wasn't Bill making such and such pick. Per Wolf, the old process neglected scouts input and focused on role instead of value. Upstater you can give it up now, all previous drafts were on Bill, yes incl. Mac, Thornton, and Jack Jones.

Eliot Wolf on scouting/setting the draft board: "We changed the grading system. It's a little bit more similar to what we did in Green Bay. The previous Patriots system was more 'this is what the role is' and this is more kind of value-based. I think it makes it a lot easier for scouts to rate guys and put them in a stack of 'this guy's the best, this guy is the worst, and everything in between falls into place.' Rather than sort of more nuanced approaches. I just think it accounts value better and also makes it easier for the scouts - in the fall and spring - to determine where guys will get drafted. ...

"To me, it's a little bit less about the grading scale and more about the process that we put in place. This process is a lot more collaborative. We hear from the scouts more. We're going to be able to determine, together, what is the best thing for the team at the end of the day."

I think Belichick looked at free agency the same way, and that was his real weakness in both areas. He was always looking for the best values, instead of looking at the best players. This also played into his preferences for special teams value, as he would think that getting the DB or Receiver who was a very good special teams player mattered more than just getting to the better receiver or defensive back. This is different however, than a point that was brought up in a different discussion about Wolf’s preference for receivers who were good returners, which isn’t as much about having them as returners for the team, as it it is a belief that receivers who are dangerous returners are going to be much better YAC. guys than those who don’t have that open field ability. Whereas Belichick’s view on values related more to choosing players who could play multiple roles for them. And while there is value in that, it can also lead to you taking lesser players at their positions, but who can fill more roles. Hopefully Wolf sees more value in just taking the best players at their position instead of always looking for more versatile players.

 

[signbabybrady]

I think Belichick looked at free agency the same way, and that was his real weakness in both areas. He was always looking for the best values, instead of looking at the best players. This also played into his preferences for special teams value, as he would think that getting the DB or Receiver who was a very good special teams player mattered more than just getting to the better receiver or defensive back. This is different however, than a point that was brought up in a different discussion about Wolf’s preference for receivers who were good returners, which isn’t as much about having them as returners for the team, as it it is a belief that receivers who are dangerous returners are going to be much better YAC. guys than those who don’t have that open field ability. Whereas Belichick’s view on values related more to choosing players who could play multiple roles for them. And while there is value in that, it can also lead to you taking lesser players at their positions, but who can fill more roles. Hopefully Wolf sees more value in just taking the best players at their position instead of always looking for more versatile players.

I think your also missing that the guy willing to play multiple roles is someone who puts the team first and Bill felt that those types of traits meant more than a tenth of a second on a stop watch. No way to prove wether it's true or not but the thinking being this type of person is going to have the kind of focus and attention to detail that allows for things like a 21 game winning streak or overcoming a 28-3 deficit.

If your in the NFL your a superior athlete so if you're willing to concede a tiny bit of athleticism in your approach to find guys with the right characteristics and you put enough of these guys together with the right traits and look and see what they can accomplish.

 

[Ivan]

I think your also missing that the guy willing to play multiple roles is someone who puts the team first and Bill felt that those types of traits meant more than a tenth of a second on a stop watch. No way to prove wether it's true or not but the thinking being this type of person is going to have the kind of focus and attention to detail that allows for things like a 21 game winning streak or overcoming a 28-3 deficit.

If your in the NFL your a superior athlete so if you're willing to concede a tiny bit of athleticism in your approach to find guys with the right characteristics and you put enough of these guys together with the right traits and look and see what they can accomplish.

I’m aware of that, and I agree with that in general. Belichick was known for putting a a great deal of emphasis on psychological characteristics of players, and things like leadership mattered greatly to him in team building. However that can also be a problem if you continually pass on the better athlete or player for the guy who fits your profile better. On the one hand you don’t want a team full of narcissists, but on the other you don’t want a team that isn’t as athletic as the other teams you face. For good or bad I think Belichick made the final call on personnel, be that draft or free agency, and I think he made a lot of mistakes by overemphasizing the qualities he was looking for over better players. He still brought them great success, but I’m glad he’s not picking the groceries anymore.

 

[Ivan]

Going by what Wolf is saying it really does sound like Belichick only listened to his scouts to a point, and then just did what he wanted to do. His choice, he had that authority, but it could well have led to his demise as well.