Patriots trading Richard Seymour to the Raiders!!!

[Ungeheuer]

The move seems strange.

I don't understand the economics of it, but why wouldn't we just tag and trade Sey next year? Too much money still with that and unable to extend Wilfork? Does the Franchise Tag demand two first rounders or could we accept one?

This was his contract year and I expected him to play for his new payday somewhere. Hate to see that gone now.

Nobody would have given up what Oakland gave up for a tagged player. The economics are vastly different; you're trading for an unsigned player with a massive cap hit versus a signed player whose signing bonus has already been paid by another team.

I'm going to make a prediction here. The Patriots are going to struggle on D in the first half of the season. Some games are going to be lost on defense. But in the second half of the year, the young players are going to improve and this is going to become a very, very good defense. It's one of the characteristics of Belichick's teams -- the good ones all gel on D later in the year after struggles early on.

It's very clear, just paying attention to all the moves of late, that the Patriots have placed an enormous priority on getting younger on both sides of the ball. They had a group of slow linebackers and they now have three very fast linebackers in their starting lineup. They completely exchanged their backup o-linemen for younger players (Simmons excluded). They've got a very young, fast secondary and they now have some youth to rotate in on the defensive line.

The Pats in the last few years had too much age and were too slow on defense. You could coach them up only to a point. They just didn't run to the ball fast enough.

I'm sad to see Seymour go, and maybe it will hurt a little, but this team went 8-0 without him a few years ago, and he didn't make a single play in the playoffs. I like the concept of a defense built around two massive maulers like Brace and Wilfork surrounded by a bunch of guys who can run. I think we'll see a defense that is aggressive, fast, and motivated. You never know what was going on in the locker room -- sometimes a team actually improves when you take out an older player who has his rings and is just playing out the string and replace him with younger, hungrier guys. Beyond that it's clear that BB has laid down the law about the D -- if he doesn't have the team's attention before, he sure does now. I like the move and I think everyone is going to be surprised by how well the Pats take Sey's loss.

 

[SteveBsFan]

That makes no sense at all. First, and foremost, Seymour had been widely considered one of the best defensive players in the league. The idea that because the 3-4 2Gap isn't used by every team lessens Seymour's accomplishments and therefore didn't meet expectations is erroneous.

I am going to ask you a very serious question. Are you Ron Borges?? Seriously, I've never seen someone so wrong about a player as Ron Borges was about the Pats drafting Seymour. The only other person I've seen be this wrong is Mav4 about McDaniels... But that is a different story.

Wow, I say a guy didn't live up to expectations and you'd think I said he was the worst player in the league the way the fanboys come out.

Seymour is a great player, I never said otherwise. My original comment about him not fully living up to expectations was something that drew out all types of random factoids about the guy being the best DE currently playing in a 3-4 system, and I simply said that was a flawed way to look at it.

He's not the best DE in the league. If you put Peppers in a 3-4, i'm sure he'll quickly be the best 3-4 DE in the league, which proves the argument is stupid and arbitrary.

I guess the mistake on my part was saying expectations since that's another arbitrary argument. Everyone expects different things from different people. As I can see from some people here, I guess they expected him to be the best 3-4 DE in the league, and they are likely right. I was hoping he'd be a type of DE who could be the best or near the best regardless of how he's lined up as.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Much of the reason that Seymour is perceived so differently from Warren is Seymour's attitude. Seymour reminds me so much of Bledsoe. Warren reminds me of a lunch-pail type of guy who wants to come in and do his job and be the best at his job. He doesn't need to tell everyone how good he is at his job because he's been shown that its already been recognized (hence the early contract extension).

BTW, It should be noted that Warren was also playing with an injury in 2007. I think it was a shoulder, but I forget exactly.

I agree w/ the perception regarding Warren, but I'm just not sure why everyone assumes the best about Warren and the worst about Seymour. Most of what you said about Warren describes Seymour equally, yet you single Seymour out as having a bad attitude for... what, exactly?

Having the nerve to get injured playing out-of-position at fullback, because Belichick asked him to, or having the nerve to hold out for more money, which he was clearly worth?

 

[mgteich]

Are we forgetting Seymour's holdout?

I agree w/ the perception regarding Warren, but I'm just not sure why everyone assumes the best about Warren and the worst about Seymour. Most of what you said about Warren describes Seymour equally, yet you single Seymour out as having a bad attitude for... what, exactly?

Having the nerve to get injured playing out-of-position at fullback, because Belichick asked him to, or having the nerve to hold out for more money, which he was clearly worth?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That does not make sense on any level. You draft a guy to play a vital role on your team, and he becomes the best player in the league at playing that role. How is that not living up to expectations?

When you extend him after a holdout and he isn't the best player in the league at playing that role for most of that top tier extension.

Look, I don't agree with those who claimed he tanked after getting that deal. I think he was hurt, and he isn't nearly the player hurt that is is when 100% healthy. Thing is it's increasingly unlikely he will play a season 100% healthy again. He reportedly did in 2008 and it didn't impact this defense in a way that justifies his existence here as a double digit expense. And the $$$ and perception always mattered a little too much to Richard which made him a potential negative leader in the clubhouse (which was the final reason Lawyer had to leave here on the eve of another season).

The most they could hope for from Richard going forward was value on the field and relative silence off it. Kind of like Asante. That player just doesn't warrant one of the very select top tier salary slots on this team. They moved him a year early because that allowed them to get some value. They obviously believe that value will balance the loss, which was inevitable. They franchised Asante and he gave up a TD and missed a game clinching pick in week 19 of his last season here. Should have traded him too...

 

[ausbacker]

Interesting news to wake up to in the morning. Clearly our priorities are extended the contract of others and preparing for the future.

BB and Kraft are the most astute business team in the NFL. Cop the "pain" now for a future asset. Brilliant business psyche.

Thanks for the memories Richard and good luck @ Oakland.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Wow, I say a guy didn't live up to expectations and you'd think I said he was the worst player in the league the way the fanboys come out.

Seymour is a great player, I never said otherwise. My original comment about him not fully living up to expectations was something that drew out all types of random factoids about the guy being the best DE currently playing in a 3-4 system, and I simply said that was a flawed way to look at it.

And you were wrong, because he's the best in the league at what the Pats drafted him to be.

He's not the best DE in the league. If you put Peppers in a 3-4, i'm sure he'll quickly be the best 3-4 DE in the league, which proves the argument is stupid and arbitrary.

Do you understand what the 3-4 is? Peppers would be an average, at best, 3-4 DE. Probably below average. In fact, he wouldn't even PLAY DE in the 3-4- he'd be an OLB. You should look into things a little more before you declare yourself 'sure' of them, because your ignorance of pretty basic football principles is showing clearly.

I guess the mistake on my part was saying expectations since that's another arbitrary argument. Everyone expects different things from different people. As I can see from some people here, I guess they expected him to be the best 3-4 DE in the league, and they are likely right. I was hoping he'd be a type of DE who could be the best or near the best regardless of how he's lined up as.

And that's the problem- you think that a good 4-3 DE and a good 3-4 DE are the same thing. They're not. You can't just interchange them- they demand different skills, different attributes, and a different mentality.

3-4 DEs are 5-technique, and 4-3 DEs are typically 7-technique, in addition to the radical difference between 1-gap responsibilities and 2-gap. If you don't understand these differences (and it's pretty clear that you don't), then you're simply not qualified to make any sort of judgment on Seymour. Not to sound too blunt, but I'm sick of people trashing Seymour simply because they don't understand his job. Belichick's DEs function much more like DTs than DEs in a traditional 4-3 alignment. In fact, Seymour got most of his sacks playing 3-technique on passing downs, which is exactly what 4-3 DTs play. He essentially got 8.5 sacks as a defensive tackle.

 

[mgteich]

The bottom line is that the 2009 and 2010 teams will be worse and the 2011 and 2012 teams will be better.

When you extend him after a holdout and he isn't the best player in the league at playing that role for most of that top tier extension.

Look, I don't agree with those who claimed he tanked after getting that deal. I think he was hurt, and he isn't nearly the player hurt that is is when 100% healthy. Thing is it's increasingly unlikely he will play a season 100% healthy again. He reportedly did in 2008 and it didn't impact this defense in a way that justifies his existence here as a double digit expense. And the $$$ and perception always mattered a little too much to Richard which made him a potential negative leader in the clubhouse (which was the final reason Lawyer had to leave here on the eve of another season).

The most they could hope for from Richard going forward was value on the field and relative silence off it. Kind of like Asante. That player just doesn't warrant one of the very select top tier salary slots on this team. They moved him a year early because that allowed them to get some value. They obviously believe that value will balance the loss, which was inevitable. They franchised Asante and he gave up a TD and missed a game clinching pick in week 19 of his last season here. Should have traded him too...

 

[slash83]

In the end this is how I see what went down today. Even without Seymour, I think BB knows his run defense is still going to be stout. Wilfork and Brace in the middle are over 650lbs of beef! good luck moving that. Seymour was very good getting after the qb last season, but with the additions of Derrick Burgess, Banta-Cain, and Mayo showing good ability to blitz along with an improved secondary BB probably feels comfortable Seymours contributions getting after the qb could be adequately matched.

I do think Seymour was going to have a monster year though since he was going to be playing for a new contract, that alone sucks...

 

[slash83]

The bottom line is that the 2009 and 2010 teams will be worse and the 2011 and 2012 teams will be better.

I agree totally, that sucks to cause who knows how long the combo of Brady and Moss are still going to dominate. By the time 2011 and 2012 come around I dont think Moss will be as effective as he is today.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, and a monster year by an all-pro DE might be the difference between a playoff team and a SB team.

In the end this is how I see what went down today. Even without Seymour, I think BB knows his run defense is still going to be stout. Wilfork and Brace in the middle are over 650lbs of beef! good luck moving that. Seymour was very good getting after the qb last season, but with the additions of Derrick Burgess, Banta-Cain, and Mayo showing good ability to blitz along with an improved secondary BB probably feels comfortable Seymours contributions getting after the qb could be adequately matched.

I do think Seymour was going to have a monster year though since he was going to be playing for a new contract, that alone sucks...

 

[slash83]

Yes, and a monster year by an all-pro DE might be the difference between a playoff team and a SB team.

I think your right, I hope it does not come down to that though

 

[BradyFTW!]

W
Look, I don't agree with those who claimed he tanked after getting that deal. I think he was hurt, and he isn't nearly the player hurt that is is when 100% healthy. Thing is it's increasingly unlikely he will play a season 100% healthy again.

What makes you think that? He's had one significant injury in his career, and he sustained it while playing fullback. At this point, Ty Warren's probably a more significant injury risk, since Seymour proved that he was 100% healthy in 2008.

He reportedly did in 2008 and it didn't impact this defense in a way that justifies his existence here as a double digit expense.

He had a huge impact on the defense- teams couldn't run at him. Runs on the left tackle averaged over a yard less than they did anywhere else on the line. Teams stopped even trying to run at him after a while. On passing downs, he moved into the 3-technique, where he got 8.5 sacks, leading the team. He was our best player at both stopping the run and rushing the passer...

And the $$$ and perception always mattered a little too much to Richard which made him a potential negative leader in the clubhouse (which was the final reason Lawyer had to leave here on the eve of another season).

Wilfork's taken his contract negotiations public, and has made it very clear that he wants more money. Just like Seymour, he wants to get paid. If that's how you see things, then that's fair, as long as you're consistent and hit Wilfork with the same label.

The most they could hope for from Richard going forward was value on the field and relative silence off it. Kind of like Asante. That player just doesn't warrant one of the very select top tier salary slots on this team. They moved him a year early because that allowed them to get some value. They obviously believe that value will balance the loss, which was inevitable. They franchised Asante and he gave up a TD and missed a game clinching pick in week 19 of his last season here. Should have traded him too...

I at least partially agree with this. To me, it's a simple equation: Seymour wasn't coming back, so they valued a 2011 first rounder higher than Seymour in 2009 and a 3rd round comp pick in 2011. It's that simple: no more and no less. Trying to make it a matter of Milloy pt. 2 is just dumb. One guy was cut, the other was traded for a first round pick. How does that even warrant a comparison?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yes, and a monster year by an all-pro DE might be the difference between a playoff team and a SB team.

Last year it didn't make a bit of difference and the year before retaining the all pro corner didn't either. Having Brady back will make the 2008 team exponentially better. Moving on may allow the defense to develop over the season to the extent they don't drop off over last year and actually improve. Worked in 2003 and we didn't even get a draft pick for Milloy...

 

[Pats726]

Mights and could bes...there are all kinds of situations..and what ifs...He might have also been injured?? I mean Who knows!!
One point in all of this is that we really don't know the back story leading up to this at all. Only a bit has leaked out and I have to say that that is pretty good for BOTH parties..the team and Rchard. Usually the media gets involved and it accelerates a situation for theworst. Vince, to his credit, has played it straight, talking to the press and doing a great job to keep things civil. That's one way to do it. Another is to keep it totally away as seems to be in this other situation. THAT also is a good way to handle things..BOTH very professionally done. We may never know the whole story and that is OK. Richard is gone..he was a great Patriot player and it's really time to thank him for all that he did and move on.

 

[Fencer]

Having the nerve to get injured playing out-of-position at fullback, because Belichick asked him to, or having the nerve to hold out for more money, which he was clearly worth?

Seymour clearly has the right to value money over, say, team success. Players have the right to pull every trick they can within their contracts, given how few options their contracts give them. But teams also have the right to trade players.

 

[mgteich]

If we could sign an all-pro end tomorrow for one year (withe possibility of franchising him and extending him), we would all be excited about the player being the last player needed to make us true Super Bowl favorites.

To put it another way, if Seymour played for someone else and we could get him for a 2011 pick, there would be 1000's of posts begging to secure his services.

Because Seymour is a former patriot, his perceived value is much less.

Last year it didn't make a bit of difference and the year before retaining the all pro corner didn't either. Having Brady back will make the 2008 team exponentially better. Moving on may allow the defense to develop over the season to the extent they don't drop off over last year and actually improve. Worked in 2003 and we didn't even get a draft pick for Milloy...

 

[mgteich]

We brought in an all-pro to replace Milloy.

Last year it didn't make a bit of difference and the year before retaining the all pro corner didn't either. Having Brady back will make the 2008 team exponentially better. Moving on may allow the defense to develop over the season to the extent they don't drop off over last year and actually improve. Worked in 2003 and we didn't even get a draft pick for Milloy...

 

[SteveBsFan]

Not to sound too blunt, but I'm sick of people trashing Seymour simply because they don't understand his job.

Right here shows what i'm dealing with. If you think me stating he never really fully lived up to expectations as 'trashing' him, than you are extremely sensitive and getting way too defensive about it.

I've been nothing but complimentary towards Seymour aside from me stating that opinion about him, yet i'm trashing him?

 

[condon84]

Yeah, this trade was like a WTF moment when I saw it. We are signinficantly less talented as a team. This hurts us this year but the draft pick will help us in 2011. We'll see how this turns out. Officially the end of an era. Big Sey was a major contributer in our 2001 Super Bowl team (his rookie year) and he was an integral part in all of our other Super Bowl teams. I have faith in Belichick, but the last couple of days have me scratching my head.

I am looking forward to our season even more.