Patriots concerned about Aqib Talib's work ethic

[Deus Irae]

Another point to consider, but his quote of "lots and lots of CBs making 5/50 today" was a bit misleading.

I agree. "Longterm at X dollars per annum or more" would have been a better way to put it.

I am seeing 5/50 at the top, or at least very close to it. Otherwise the franchise number for the position wouldn't be around 10m per year/slightly higher which is obviously the average of 5/50.

I would have liked another list to pick from but couldn't find one. I imagine that this poorly reputable site is at least comparable however.

Asomugha and Revis are both comfortably over $10 million per. That's about it, although Bailey is over by a smaller amount ($3 million less than Revis).

 

[supafly]

Don't get me wrong.... Rogers was pretty high up on my "want" list, and I'm not in favor of breaking the bank for Talib. I'm just pointing out some issues with the comparisons, that's all.

Absolutely.

The comparison is flawed considering age alone, but there were many other factors that deemed the comparison on an equal enough ground in my opinion.

It's certainly possible that some team steps in and gives Talib a huge 4/36 contract or something of that rate, possibly due to lack of better candidates or some cap floor considerations that I'm not giving full enough credit to, but I personally doubt it myself. Either way I probably shouldn't be acting so strongly one way or another, as usually I don't.

It's just the talk of "5/50" that has me feeling so strongly. Or maybe it's just the general overvaluing of Talib in general. Either way I'm going to have to let it go, or it's going to be a long period of 5 weeks+ having this same discussion over and over in different threads.

 

[Deus Irae]

...It's just the talk of "5/50" that has me feeling so strongly. Or maybe it's just the general overvaluing of Talib in general. Either way I'm going to have to let it go, or it's going to be a long period of 5 weeks+ having this same discussion over and over in different threads.

I'll put it out there like this: I have no idea what kind of offers Talib is going to get. He was reportedly a candidate for release by the Bucs. He came to NE and [highlight]helped[/highlight] turn around a miserable pass defense, but he also missed something like half the games he could have played in and couldn't stay on the field when he was needed most because he pulled a muscle.

It only takes one team to throw $10 million per at him, while it would take all 32 to keep it below that. Personally, I doubt I'd even give him $5 million per season on a long term deal, because I don't like the risk/reward on the guy, but that's for the Patriots, and others, to decide.

But the one thing that's not being brought up about this guy is that the team went farther last year, without him.

 

[eom]

I might be remembering this wrong, but he's getting compared to rogers because when we were talking about cap, or whatever, in andy's front 7 thread I threw out a couple names that got signed at his position last year just for a rough benchmark, and rogers was one (wright was the other).
anyway, I think it's crossed over into nitpicking and arguing for the sake of argument, now, as there are maybe 10 guys on that list of names that meet the 5/50 in spirit, if not by definition.

I don't think it's even relevant --- would the pats give him 3 yrs at 20-25m?
if not, somebody else will.

 

[Sweet Chin Music33]

If Talib is not back, then they need to do something about the secondary. For 2+ years they have looked like garbage.....they bring this guy in, and immediately they look like a respectable group.

The wonders of a guy who can cover 1 on 1.

 

[supafly]

Footballsfuture.com still has Talib as the #2 free agent CB behind Grimes. I thought their writeup on him was very interesting though, as it tends to tell more about Talib's concerns and the ways that he helped shift the DB's here in New England, than it did his actual physical talents:

Aqib Talib (NE) - Though a career headache off the field, Talib has worked wonders for the Patriots pass defense since his arrival. Though still far from elite, his ability to play the perimeter has allowed the team to move Devin McCourty to safety, shoring up two needs and reducing the number of big plays they've allowed over the top. The Patriots need a player like Talib to contain their weakness, especially since they've struggled drafting corners, but history shows that they still won't ink Talib to a long- term deal just yet. Fortunately for them, almost every other team will take the same approach with Talib, who will most likely be suspended if he has another off- field infraction.

2013 NFL Free Agents: DB

"Still far from elite" tends to mean that a player like that isn't going to get the kind of elite payday that players of that caliber tend to get, otherwise known as 5/50. I'm actually somewhat surprised that Talib is being valued higher than S.Smith, although that is certainly debatable.

I would agree with just everyone here who has valued their projections anywhere between 5--7.5 million aav.

 

[supafly]

If Talib is not back, then they need to do something about the secondary. For 2+ years they have looked like garbage.....they bring this guy in, and immediately they look like a respectable group.

The wonders of a guy who can cover 1 on 1.

When you factor in the fact that Talib played only about 1/2 of the time, you'll see that it was probably much more the shifting of the other players to their strengths than it was Talib's incredible gifts.

When you consider the fact that both McCourty and Arrington were moved from the outside, plus Moore from the slot you have 3 positional changes. Add in the fact that Patrick Chung was addition by subtraction and you now essentially have 4 new players in different positions. That is something to keep in mind when assessing Talib and his talents by themselves. Of course it'd be a lot easier to just keep him for a reasonable cost, but that isn't very likely to happen in my opinion.

Another player who can effectively play 1/2 the man coverage that Talib did would still be much better than what we've had in the two year period you are quoting, as we'd still be able to field a much better secondary and have the more aggressive scheme in the front seven.

 

[Fencer]

Writers will use misdirection referring their sources.

Quite true.

 

[patsfan-1982]

if the pats can sign Ed Reed i would not care if they let Talib walk, after Flacco brakes the bank the pats may have a shot if they throw about 6 million at Reed for one year

 

[supafly]

if the pats can sign Ed Reed i would not care if they let Talib walk, after Flacco brakes the bank the pats may have a shot if they throw about 6 million at Reed for one year

It'd have to be a significant increase in terms of what Baltimore will offer to even get him to think twice about leaving. If it's a small difference most players (in his specific position getting ready to retire, coming off a SB win, and having played his entire career in BAL) aren't going to want to leave and go to an arch rival.

I very seriously doubt that BAL lets him walk, and even if they did I doubt NE would offer him something that much more significant than what they would offer.

I really doubt that there's any shot of getting Ed Reed, and I'm fine with that if we can still bring in a competitive player for the secondary in FA. A draft pick is key too.

 

[fumbrunner]

I'm going to advocate getting some geriatrics in here.

instead of throwing $10 mill at Talib (which the Pats would never do), why not use that $10 mill to make a run at Ed Reed and Champ Bailey. Sure, they are on the downside of their careers, but this young defense of the Pats are in dire need of some veteran players that know how to win. Nothing like a couple of future HOFs to do that. Draft a S and (gasp) another CB and let them develop under their tutelage.

 

[eom]

It'd have to be a significant increase in terms of what Baltimore will offer to even get him to think twice about leaving. If it's a small difference most players (in his specific position getting ready to retire, coming off a SB win, and having played his entire career in BAL) aren't going to want to leave and go to an arch rival.

I very seriously doubt that BAL lets him walk, and even if they did I doubt NE would offer him something that much more significant than what they would offer.

I really doubt that there's any shot of getting Ed Reed, and I'm fine with that if we can still bring in a competitive player for the secondary in FA. A draft pick is key too.

what can baltimore offer him?

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Here are the top 10 paid CBs in the league for the 2012-2013 season.

I am counting ONE "5/50" guy on here, and that is Asomugha, who won't ever see that anyway. He is at #3

1.Champ Bailey 4/43.

2.Darelle Revis 4/46.

3.Asomugah 5/60.

4.D.Hall 6/55.

5. (tie)

Gamble 6/53.

Joseph 5/48.7

7.L.Hall 5/42.

8.Cromartie 4/32.

9.Flowers 6/49.

10.Tillman 7/41.


I am wondering about Webb, Finnegan, and Carr from last season. Maybe their averages are not high enough, as this seems to be based on cap hit alone. For what it's worth:

Webb 6/50

Carr 5/50

Finnegan 5/50


So, if you count Finnegan and Carr that would make a grand total of THREE including Asomugah.

Numeroten | The Best Top 10 Lists on the Web!

I appreciate the effort in collecting all of that data, but when I said 5/50 I meant a contract that pays $10 mill a year, the length could vary.. I consider 5/50 the same as 4/40, 3/30, 2/20

Hes only 26 so there may be a team that would want to give him a 5 year deal, especially since it lowers his cap hit and spreads the signing bonus out over all 5 years. Although it would have to be loaded with incentives based on playing time and his 1 strike with the substance abuse policy

 

[Mac&Barmore FTW]

I would love to add Nnamdi. I know the Eagles are going to cut him. If we could have him play man coverage it would be perfect. What do you guys think of Nnamdi / likeliness that we get him.

 

[Sciz]

I would love to add Nnamdi. I know the Eagles are going to cut him. If we could have him play man coverage it would be perfect. What do you guys think of Nnamdi / likeliness that we get him.

I've read rumblings that he may be a little too interested in pursuing an acting career, which is the kind of thing that I think Belichick would see as a bigger problem than most.

[And unlike Brady, he can actually act, from what I've read, meaning he could actually have a future doing it.]

 

[Mac&Barmore FTW]

I've read rumblings that he may be a little too interested in pursuing an acting career, which is the kind of thing that I think Belichick would see as a bigger problem than most.

[And unlike Brady, he can actually act, from what I've read, meaning he could actually have a future doing it.]

Oh that's too bad. I feel that Nnamdi would fit in pretty well. But yeah I remember seeing him in one of the Friday Night Lights episodes.

 

[supafly]

what can baltimore offer him?

1. The ability to retire for the same team that he's played his entire career for

2. A current SB winner where comradery is at its absolute highest amongst the core group of players

3. Money that's in the "ballpark" of what anyone else can


We've seen all of those things come into play time and time again for players in this kind of situation. We've seen many players take hometown discounts to stay with their SB winning club before, especially if they're at the end of their careers.

The thought that N.England would have to offer him something more significant (depending on your defintion, or more importantly Ed Reed's) to pry him away is certainly a fair point. If BAL offers him 5 million next year and NE offers him 6, that may not be enough for Reed to leave town...

Just last year alone Reggie Wayne took less money to stay home in Indy, and he was coming off of a 2-14 season. It's certainly something to consider, not to mention the fact that more times than not these "cap hell" situations are completely overblown. Pittsburgh erased almost 15 million in a 24 hour span last summer. The NYG erased 14 million in the past 24 hrs. It can be done, especially with some timely restructures from Suggs and Ngata.

 

[supafly]

I appreciate the effort in collecting all of that data, but when I said 5/50 I meant a contract that pays $10 mill a year, the length could vary.. I consider 5/50 the same as 4/40, 3/30, 2/20

Hes only 26 so there may be a team that would want to give him a 5 year deal, especially since it lowers his cap hit and spreads the signing bonus out over all 5 years. Although it would have to be loaded with incentives based on playing time and his 1 strike with the substance abuse policy

We have a difference of opinion on what Talib will receive in free agency, nothing more than that.

I respect your thoughts, but I personally have a hard time believing that he'd get anything much above something that's more than 50-60% of what you claimed as "5/50." The high majority of the posters here have the same kind of projections.

Someone may come in and wow him with a 4/32 contract or something, but he isn't going to see 5/50, and that's what you claimed.

Either way, we'll know soon enough, and if I am incorrect I will certainly give you props and admit to my mistake. Only time will tell. In the meantime I have enjoyed your opposing viewpoint.

 

[eom]

The Tampa Bay Times says the Bucs are expected to release CB Eric Wright.
Wright signed a five-year, $38 million contract last offseason, but with his four-game PEDs suspension during the year, all of the remaining guaranteed money in his contract was voided. Wright is due $7.75 million in 2013, but he won't see that after being a contributor to one of the worst secondaries in the NFL in 2012.

 

[eom]

1. The ability to retire for the same team that he's played his entire career for

2. A current SB winner where comradery is at its absolute highest amongst the core group of players

3. Money that's in the "ballpark" of what anyone else can


We've seen all of those things come into play time and time again for players in this kind of situation. We've seen many players take hometown discounts to stay with their SB winning club before, especially if they're at the end of their careers.

The thought that N.England would have to offer him something more significant (depending on your defintion, or more importantly Ed Reed's) to pry him away is certainly a fair point. If BAL offers him 5 million next year and NE offers him 6, that may not be enough for Reed to leave town...

Just last year alone Reggie Wayne took less money to stay home in Indy, and he was coming off of a 2-14 season. It's certainly something to consider, not to mention the fact that more times than not these "cap hell" situations are completely overblown. Pittsburgh erased almost 15 million in a 24 hour span last summer. The NYG erased 14 million in the past 24 hrs. It can be done, especially with some timely restructures from Suggs and Ngata.

according to this they have about 18m, but only 41 guys signed.
a couple rfa in ****son and pitta, but they may lose about 5 guys off their defense, and they've got the flacco deal where they initially tag him at 14m.

I don't think suggs and ngata have all that much juice to squeeze, and do you think reed is looking for a 1 yr deal for 5m?