Patriots concerned about Aqib Talib's work ethic

[JackBauer]

Sorry for the confusion. Ill make it simple. Hes not good at any of them.....and he does play SS as they are always rotating personnel in the backfield based on matchups.

This is incorrect.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Sorry for the confusion. Ill make it simple. Hes not good at any of them.....and he does play SS as they are always rotating personnel in the backfield based on matchups.



We have had a bottom 5 pass defense for the last 3 years. Mccourty has been moved all over the defensive backfield. If he was as good as you think at any of them, they would stop moving him around. They are still trying to figure out what he is.

An excellent FS? The way to attack the patriots defense is underneath and over the top. Both of which attack the safeties. So when we are getting gashed underneath, its either on the LB's not being able to cover, or Mccourty reading and reacting late (often).

Being a press corner requires zero technique? He has the skill set to play press corner. That subjective, just because you don't think its a "technique" doesnt mean its not one.

Its hard to call anyone in that secondary "excellent" when they have played so poorly as a group for 3 years.

We've had a bottom 5 pass defense for the past three years because McCourty was the only good player in the secondary up until this year, none of the linebackers could cover, and the none of the pass rushers could win one-on-one matchups with any regularity.

Your insistence on assigning "bottom 5 pass defense" strictly to the secondary, and then necessarily to everyone in that secondary, makes no sense on any level. If Kyle Arrington is giving his man a 5 yard cushion and then still getting beaten before the QB completes a 5 step drop (which he almost always has time to complete), then it doesn't matter how good or bad anyone else in the secondary is- that pass is getting completed for good yardage.

 

[eom]

I was just using some random examples, eom. The 5 million dollar example could be used for actual cap hit.

Reed may take something in the range of 7 million aav from BAL (obviously a lesser cap hit), whereas that may very well be comparable to N.England's 8 million aav. That's my only point.

Exactly "how" BAL may be able to free up some of their money is debatable, and I certainly am not claiming to be anything of a capologist by a long shot, but I think that it would take quite a few things to fall in place just perfectly for the Pats to have an actual shot at Ed Reed, and I am very leery about whether or not he even leaves Baltimore.

Suggs supposed cap hit is looking to be in the range of 13 million next season, so I assume they will find a way to restructure/extend somehow. Ngata is another player who has been brought up.

I'd defer to the capologists on the board, but if you restructure both ngata and suggs you maybe get 4m combined, which is better than nothing, and it all adds up.
per my link, half the suggs cap figure is prorated bonus, which they are stuck with.
you could extend those guys to save a couple more million, maybe, but both will be asking top dollar, and you'd have to cut those deals pretty quick, as you'll have to tag flacco.

it's certainly possible ed reed has a wink wink deal in place with their front office awaiting the flacco deal, but who knows how long that flacco deal drags out, or if it even gets done, so that wouldn't be good business for the reed camp.

it's not impossible to retain reed, but once they tag flacco they'll be pretty limited, and the key to lowering a cap number would be longer contract, which baltimore may be reluctant to do.

all that said, I don't really think ed reed is the priority for our team.

 

[supafly]

I'd defer to the capologists on the board, but if you restructure both ngata and suggs you maybe get 4m combined, which is better than nothing, and it all adds up.
per my link, half the suggs cap figure is prorated bonus, which they are stuck with.
you could extend those guys to save a couple more million, maybe, but both will be asking top dollar, and you'd have to cut those deals pretty quick, as you'll have to tag flacco.

it's certainly possible ed reed has a wink wink deal in place with their front office awaiting the flacco deal, but who knows how long that flacco deal drags out, or if it even gets done, so that wouldn't be good business for the reed camp.

it's not impossible to retain reed, but once they tag flacco they'll be pretty limited, and the key to lowering a cap number would be longer contract, which baltimore may be reluctant to do.

all that said, I don't really think ed reed is the priority for our team.

Ozzie Newsome claimed today that he isn't going to make the same mistake that they did last time they won the SB by restructuring a bunch of vets to stay. I guess that allowed nice short term results, but eventually put them in a bind several yrs later.

I would guess that he's referring to not using that philosophy as a whole, and will still consider a couple/few restructures. I don't know enough about the specifics of those deals, so they should indeed be left for someone better in the cap area.

If Reed is availabe, I certainly would not mind seeing a short term deal offered, but I'd be much more excited with one of those top tier safeties for the future...or they could go the other route and address the CB position more through FA and then potentially take a high draft pick at safety. I wouldn't care either way, I just want to see both positions addressed, with one of them bringing in a guy who can improve them immediately.

 

[ayatollah]

i hope this is a ploy to soften him and his agent, other wise new england will outsmart itself once again. we need him.

 

[supafly]

i hope this is a ploy to soften him and his agent, other wise new england will outsmart itself once again. we need him.

No, I respectfully disagree.

This is a very popular misconception with some posters. We don't need "him," we need someone capable of playing more physical man to man coverage like he did in the 50% of snaps that he actually was able to play while healthy here.

It was the ability to play a more aggressive style of defense that benefitted this team down the stretch. There were many more pieces that added up to the whole puzzle besides Aqib Talib's talent, after all they still did pretty well in the month of December when he was on the bench. McCourty, Arrington, and Dennard all moved to different positions, and Chung was erased from starting. There are 4 more important pieces to the puzzle right there.

Since the front seven were able to play more aggressively due to the man coverage scheme, the secondary benefitted as did the front seven...as it should be.

While players with halfway decent man coverage abilities don't necessarily grow on trees, there are other ones out there. It was the change of personnel and scheme itself that had much more to do with the success than simply Talib himself, and I would imagine that Belichick is quite aware of that.

While this may be a "leak" or a "ploy" as you say on some level, don't kid yourself. Those concerns are very real and are certainly warranted. Talib was about to be outright cut from the worst secondary in all of football this season, so that should tell you something. His play didn't exactly prove that he's able to stay on the actual playing field either, which has to be of concern. He also came here on a suspension and had an offseason where he was the main target of a shooting investigation, and has also had many attitude problems/fights in the past. He's a headache, and they will most likely pass if he doesn't agree to less money and/or a shorter term deal.

 

[supafly]

The Tampa Bay Times says the Bucs are expected to release CB Eric Wright.
Wright signed a five-year, $38 million contract last offseason, but with his four-game PEDs suspension during the year, all of the remaining guaranteed money in his contract was voided. Wright is due $7.75 million in 2013, but he won't see that after being a contributor to one of the worst secondaries in the NFL in 2012.

My only concern with Wright is that he may cost too much and not be worth that specific amount of money. I like the idea of that kind of player though, and I really don't mind him personally if the price is decent enough.

One thing that I did notice is that he seems to be much more comfortable at LCB than RCB, and it's possible that some of his problems last season may have been due to that change. Of course that's just my speculation. It may be sheer coincidence that his numbers tailed a bit at the same time they moved him over to RCB last year.

One thing about both Wright and S.Brown is that they can both play a more aggressive style of man coverage, although one is significantly older than the other too. That said, their talent may be a lot closer that many think, and Brown may actually be the lesser gamble due to his durability and abilty to play both CB and S at a much lesser cost.

I think one thing that you've definitely helped to show is that there are plenty of other options besides Talib, although Talib showed us that he can be effective in this particular defense and has some limited experience here. It'd be a lot easier to just keep Talib if the price is right, so let's hope that's the case.

 

[supafly]

it's certainly possible ed reed has a wink wink deal in place with their front office awaiting the flacco deal, but who knows how long that flacco deal drags out, or if it even gets done, so that wouldn't be good business for the reed camp.

One thing I'm guessing is that O.Newsome and the front office may have a plan in place to simply tag Flacco for this upcoming year due to the complexity that many of these major types of contracts tend to have.

Not only would that solidify the situation at the moment, it could potentially save them a little bit of money in the process. I'm not sure how much I particualry agree with those who say that the Ravens will definitely need to use the exclusive franchise tag as opposed to the regular franchise tag, as the regular would save them 5.5 million (14.5 as opposed to 20) while still guaranteeing that they could have the right to match any offer.

We've seen rare cases of the exclusive tag in the past, and I'm not 100% sure I'm buying all of the hype that suddenly teams are going to wish to part with multiple high draft picks AND throw any larger amounts of money at Joe Flacco just because his team got hot at the right time.

If that's the case then they'll likely be looking ahead to the Reed and others pacts a lot quicker. I don't know how good of business it'd be to wait on everyone else while you're potentially trying to complete a huge deal like Flacco's that could in theory, go into next offseason.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

One thing I'm guessing is that O.Newsome and the front office may have a plan in place to simply tag Flacco for this upcoming year due to the complexity that many of these major types of contracts tend to have.

Not only would that solidify the situation at the moment, it could potentially save them a little bit of money in the process. I'm not sure how much I particualry agree with those who say that the Ravens will definitely need to use the exclusive franchise tag as opposed to the regular franchise tag, as the regular would save them 5.5 million (14.5 as opposed to 20) while still guaranteeing that they could have the right to match any offer.

We've seen rare cases of the exclusive tag in the past, and I'm not 100% sure I'm buying all of the hype that suddenly teams are going to wish to part with multiple high draft picks AND throw any larger amounts of money at Joe Flacco just because his team got hot at the right time.

If that's the case then they'll likely be looking ahead to the Reed and others pacts a lot quicker. I don't know how good of business it'd be to wait on everyone else while you're potentially trying to complete a huge deal like Flacco's that could in theory, go into next offseason.

It's pretty much a given he will be exclusive tagged. While there are no more zany poison pill clauses to grapple with any more, structure alone can serve the same purpose. A team with lots of cap space can do a deal Baltimore would find impossible to match. Not to mention set up an overpayment they aren't willing to swallow long term. Linta has said he expects Flacco to be the highest paid player in the league at $20M++. Cleveland has $48M in cap space and a new regime and no QB (to speak of). Tampa has $31M and remains on the fence where Freeman is concerned. With a couple of anticipated releases KC could have $28M for Andy Reid to finger in pondering a turnaround absent a franchise QB.

Just saw part of Ozzie's presser and he basically stated you have to exclusive tag a franchise QB based on what Redskins gave up for a rookie in RGIII...

 

[eom]

are you guys saying that tagging him will be 20m?

edit: nvm I saw the blurb

According to the Baltimore Sun, the Ravens are "debating between" using the exclusive-rights franchise tag or non-exclusive tag on free agent Joe Flacco.
The "exclusive" tag is rarely used, but it's what the Saints slapped on Drew Brees last year. Players are allowed to negotiate with other teams under the non-exclusive tag, but the tagging team can match any offer, and receives two first-round picks as compensation if it decides to pass. Exclusively tagged players can only negotiate with the tagging team. Flacco would earn an eye-popping $20.5 million under the exclusive tag, compared to "only" $14.6 million under the non-exclusive tag.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

That was my first thought. If he's not working hard enough to be on top of things physically, he's just not worth it.

This. I completely agree. If he isn't working to be the best he can be, I say cut him. No use keeping someone who is only giving 70%.

 

[mgteich]

Talib is listed as the #4 most wanted free agent by Rotoworld. I think that a franchise tag is a possibility, if we don't use it on Welker.

 

[Ring 6]

Talib is listed as the #4 most wanted free agent by Rotoworld. I think that a franchise tag is a possibility, if we don't use it on Welker.

I would much rather find the best corner we can on the open market than tie up more than half our cap space to get Talib for 1 year. Especially when he has so much baggage that will drive his price down on the open market.

 

[JPsPats]

Free Agent Corners according to rotoworld.com


1. Cornerback

This position is loaded with quality NFL starters, and the prohibitive $10.67 million cornerback franchise number ensures it will stay that way. Aqib Talib, 27, Brent Grimes, 29, Sean Smith, 25, Chris Houston, 28, Derek Cox, 26, and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, 26, all have experience as No. 1 corners, and of them only Grimes will be 30 years old when the 2013 season starts.

Super Bowl champ Cary Williams, 28, is believed to be looking to break the bank and may have trouble landing the lucrative deal he desires. E.J. Biggers, 25, Antoine Cason, 26, Keenan Lewis, 26, and Mike Jenkins, 27, could be more affordable targets with their best football ahead of them. Bradley Fletcher, 26, and Greg Toler, 28, are potential diamonds in the rough. Darius Butler, 26, Brice McCain, 26, Kyle Arrington, 26, and D.J. Moore, 25, can cover the slot on passing downs. Pacman Jones, 29, is coming off a quietly solid season as Cincinnati's nickel back. Jerraud Powers, 25, and Tracy Porter, 26, are intriguing "rehab" projects after injury-affected years.

Obviously past their primes, Sheldon Brown, 33, Quentin Jammer, 33, Terence Newman, 34, and Rashean Mathis, 32, each may have a year or two left as solid starting cornerbacks in the league. Brown, Jammer, and Mathis could potentially extend their careers by converting to safety.

Although former first-round pick Leodis McKelvin has not panned out as a cover corner, he is still only 27 and led the NFL in 2012 punt return average while bringing back two punts to the house.



I still think we should resign talib, Grimes played well before hurt, Smith has good length but hasnt really put it fully together and DRC isn't what he was in Arizona

 

[supafly]

Talib is listed as the #4 most wanted free agent by Rotoworld. I think that a franchise tag is a possibility, if we don't use it on Welker.

I'm guessing that the team isn't going to end up using the tag this year, unless it's on #83. Just my opinion though.

 

[Mac&Barmore FTW]

Free Agent Corners according to rotoworld.com


1. Cornerback

This position is loaded with quality NFL starters, and the prohibitive $10.67 million cornerback franchise number ensures it will stay that way. Aqib Talib, 27, Brent Grimes, 29, Sean Smith, 25, Chris Houston, 28, Derek Cox, 26, and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, 26, all have experience as No. 1 corners, and of them only Grimes will be 30 years old when the 2013 season starts.

Super Bowl champ Cary Williams, 28, is believed to be looking to break the bank and may have trouble landing the lucrative deal he desires. E.J. Biggers, 25, Antoine Cason, 26, Keenan Lewis, 26, and Mike Jenkins, 27, could be more affordable targets with their best football ahead of them. Bradley Fletcher, 26, and Greg Toler, 28, are potential diamonds in the rough. Darius Butler, 26, Brice McCain, 26, Kyle Arrington, 26, and D.J. Moore, 25, can cover the slot on passing downs. Pacman Jones, 29, is coming off a quietly solid season as Cincinnati's nickel back. Jerraud Powers, 25, and Tracy Porter, 26, are intriguing "rehab" projects after injury-affected years.

Obviously past their primes, Sheldon Brown, 33, Quentin Jammer, 33, Terence Newman, 34, and Rashean Mathis, 32, each may have a year or two left as solid starting cornerbacks in the league. Brown, Jammer, and Mathis could potentially extend their careers by converting to safety.

Although former first-round pick Leodis McKelvin has not panned out as a cover corner, he is still only 27 and led the NFL in 2012 punt return average while bringing back two punts to the house.



I still think we should resign talib, Grimes played well before hurt, Smith has good length but hasnt really put it fully together and DRC isn't what he was in Arizona

Bradley Fletcher might be a good signing. What do you guys think?

 

[mgteich]

I expect that you are right, but the risk is great.

I'm guessing that the team isn't going to end up using the tag this year, unless it's on #83. Just my opinion though.

 

[Sciz]

Bradley Fletcher might be a good signing. What do you guys think?

He ended the season as the Rams' #4 CB because he was prone to terrible pass interference penalties, including three against the Pats in London. I'm not a fan.



And I definitely don't think anyone is getting tagged. That'd be about half of the Pats' cap room right there. If they're resigning one of the big three (or a similarly priced outside free agent), then they're going to want to keep the first year cap hit low and have it increase as other contracts are coming off the books.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

yeah no tag this year. Deff not on welker and now with talib on thin ice....no.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

According to stat created by ProFootballFocus.com, Talib was the second worst cornerback in the NFL in terms of the number of yards he allowed per each snap he was in coverage

#1? bradley flethcer of STL