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Patriots concerned about Aqib Talib's work ethic


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Although former first-round pick Leodis McKelvin has not panned out as a cover corner, he is still only 27 and led the NFL in 2012 punt return average while bringing back two punts to the house.

Lol at the Bills using pick #11 on a punt return specialist.
 
Lol at the Bills using pick #11 on a punt return specialist.

sandwiched right between mayo and clady.

hey -- I see flacco went 18 in that draft and talib 20.
 
Bradley Fletcher might be a good signing. What do you guys think?

Realizing that every stat is relative to certain variables, Fletcher was ranked #1 in the NFL this year in yds allowed per snap that he was in coverage according to ProFootballFocus. I think that this needs to be taken with a grain of salt due to not being able to determine coverage assignments.

The NFL's top 3:

1. Bradley Fletcher 0.52
2. Ladarius Webb 0.60
3. Nate Clements 0.63

More importantly, the report shows that Aqib Talib was extremely overrated (as many of us already knew) and was actually the 2nd the the last in the NFL, right above Stanford Routt.

The bottom 3:

113. Tracy Porter 1.83
114. Aqib Talib 2.05 (improved to 1.74 with NE, in comparison Sterling Moore was 1.91 with NE this year just to put it in comparitive terms)
115. Stanfort Routt 2.22

Numbers say that Aqib Talib may be receiving too much credit for contributions to New England Patriots defense | masslive.com

To me this doesn't necessarily mean that we should go out and sign B.Fletcher of course, but it may mean that the other moves in our secondary such as McCourty to FS, Arrington to the slot, and Dennard to starting outside CB may have had a lot more bearing on the improvement than did the signing of Talib, which is what many of us thought.

I think that we need to pass on Talib unless a very reasonable deal can be reached, and they should turn their efforts to a number of other potential CBs. If Talib is willing to stay for a reasonable amount, then all the better as he did show some ability to cover good WRs better than anyone we've seen lately.

One other thing of note...

Ras-I-Dowling was the #1 ranked CB for the NEP in this stat this year, albeit in a very limited sample size of 9 overall targets.

NE Patriots CBs (yds allowed per snap in coverage)

1.Dowling 0.77
2.McCourty 1.16
3.Cole 1.18 (in only 22 targets)
4.Dennard 1.26
5.Arrington 1.28
6.Talib 1.74
 
Why is Pro Football Focus being used for anything?


I realize it's online, so toilet paper isn't an option, but other than that it has no use.
 
Realizing that every stat is relative to certain variables, Fletcher was ranked #1 in the NFL this year in yds allowed per snap that he was in coverage according to ProFootballFocus. I think that this needs to be taken with a grain of salt due to PFF being, in general, complete garbage.

I think this disclaimer would've been more appropriate.
 
I don't feel strongly about Talib but all the smoke regarding sources with the Patriots, multiple news stories downgrading him, etc., make me think the Patriots really want to keep him.
 
Why is Pro Football Focus being used for anything?


I realize it's online, so toilet paper isn't an option, but other than that it has no use.

I think this disclaimer would've been more appropriate.

Oh, was this the site that listed Brady at the bottom of the list as to importance of his team or something along those lines?

I think that some of their stats are complete garbage, but IIRC there are some that have merit.

I'd leave it up to the reader/poster to make that determination depending upon the certain topic and statistic, but you may shrug it off due to not having any respect for some of their past ridiculousness.

I have actually found a great deal of info at times from PFF, but everything needs to be taken into context as some stats are very misleading (The TFB stat comes to mind).

They are good for certain things with some of their specific rankings and grading methods, here is an example of their analysis on Vollmer this year:

"As a run blocker this past season he was solid, finishing the year with a grade of +5.8 in that regard and while he only had one game where he really excelled in the running game, he also only had one with a run blocking grade of -0.5 or lower. It showed on the field for the Patriots, where they averaged a decent, if unspectacular, 3.91 Yards Per Carry on runs either side of Vollmer’s right tackle spot.

As a pass blocker, he allowed Tom Brady to be hit or sacked on just 13 of his 617 pass blocking snaps and his 35 total pressures allowed resulted in a Pass Blocking Efficiency (PBE) Rating of 95.5, tied for 22nd amongst all offensive tackles. He’s been consistent in that regard too, never finishing a season in his four year career with a PBE Rating lower than 94.6."
 
WE need a corner with height. Alot of the available free agents are under 6 feet. Something 6'1 or so would be nice.
 
WE need a corner with height. Alot of the available free agents are under 6 feet. Something 6'1 or so would be nice.


The whole height issue is a bit overblown in my mind due to seeing tons of NFL CBs who haven't sniffed the 6 ft mark. That said, it's hard to argue with the success that SEA has with their younger CBs. Hopefully a taller CB comes along who shows good skills in other areas, although that's also a rare trait.

We can all continue to hope that Dowling works out, which would solve the problem. Obviously the chances aren't good, but hopefully this is the year where we finally get some kind of production from him on some level.

SEA hit the mark due to their taller CBs having good man to man coverage skills that they take advantage in their physical scheme, along with very decent safety play to help. That said, they can be thrown on too, as NE should have hung at least 26 on them in Seattle this year had it not been for the 10 sec runoff penalty inside of the ten yd line to end the half. That was all done without any semblence of a running game whatsoever.
 
Realizing that every stat is relative to certain variables, Fletcher was ranked #1 in the NFL this year in yds allowed per snap that he was in coverage according to ProFootballFocus. I think that this needs to be taken with a grain of salt due to not being able to determine coverage assignments.

The NFL's top 3:

1. Bradley Fletcher 0.52
2. Ladarius Webb 0.60
3. Nate Clements 0.63

More importantly, the report shows that Aqib Talib was extremely overrated (as many of us already knew) and was actually the 2nd the the last in the NFL, right above Stanford Routt.

The bottom 3:

113. Tracy Porter 1.83
114. Aqib Talib 2.05 (improved to 1.74 with NE, in comparison Sterling Moore was 1.91 with NE this year just to put it in comparitive terms)
115. Stanfort Routt 2.22

Numbers say that Aqib Talib may be receiving too much credit for contributions to New England Patriots defense | masslive.com

To me this doesn't necessarily mean that we should go out and sign B.Fletcher of course, but it may mean that the other moves in our secondary such as McCourty to FS, Arrington to the slot, and Dennard to starting outside CB may have had a lot more bearing on the improvement than did the signing of Talib, which is what many of us thought.

I think that we need to pass on Talib unless a very reasonable deal can be reached, and they should turn their efforts to a number of other potential CBs. If Talib is willing to stay for a reasonable amount, then all the better as he did show some ability to cover good WRs better than anyone we've seen lately.

One other thing of note...

Ras-I-Dowling was the #1 ranked CB for the NEP in this stat this year, albeit in a very limited sample size of 9 overall targets.

NE Patriots CBs (yds allowed per snap in coverage)

1.Dowling 0.77
2.McCourty 1.16
3.Cole 1.18 (in only 22 targets)
4.Dennard 1.26
5.Arrington 1.28
6.Talib 1.74

These numbers are based upon Pro Football Focus analysis, which essentially makes them useless.
The only useful data from PFF are the snap counts, because it is simply a matter of adding up who is on the field.
This is one thing that is useful, and actually enlightening in those numbers is that Talib played on 175 snaps with the Patriots in coverage. The team faced 631 pass plays, meaning Talib was on the field for less than 30% of the pass plays the team faced, and less than 60% of those that happened while he was on the roster. This is a real fact that does lead to the belief that fans severely overrated his impact. Lets also not forget that 50 of them came vs the Colts when he played poorly, for which many fans gave him a pass for being out of game shape.
 
These numbers are based upon Pro Football Focus analysis, which essentially makes them useless.
The only useful data from PFF are the snap counts, because it is simply a matter of adding up who is on the field.
This is one thing that is useful, and actually enlightening in those numbers is that Talib played on 175 snaps with the Patriots in coverage. The team faced 631 pass plays, meaning Talib was on the field for less than 30% of the pass plays the team faced, and less than 60% of those that happened while he was on the roster. This is a real fact that does lead to the belief that fans severely overrated his impact. Lets also not forget that 50 of them came vs the Colts when he played poorly, for which many fans gave him a pass for being out of game shape.

WELL, YEAH -- HE ONLY PLAYED PART OF THE SEASON FOR US.
GODDAMNcapsoff
 
WELL, YEAH -- HE ONLY PLAYED PART OF THE SEASON FOR US.
GODDAMNcapsoff

Right, but with his numerous injuires it wasn't very much. People here are saying he transformed the defense. This is just another piece of data that shows his impact is being overrated. (The biggest being we really didn't play a heck of a lot better with him than without him)
 
the main thing I find to be overrated about talib is the sense that he somehow belongs to the patriots any more than any other team.

he's as much a pat as any other corner on the market , right now.
it's not like he played here 4 yrs and might have some reason to stick around on another contract -- he was here, like, 2 months.
I don't see any reason he doesn't go to the highest bidder, and I don't see any reason we can't sign some other guy of comparable ability.
 
These numbers are based upon Pro Football Focus analysis, which essentially makes them useless.
The only useful data from PFF are the snap counts, because it is simply a matter of adding up who is on the field.
This is one thing that is useful, and actually enlightening in those numbers is that Talib played on 175 snaps with the Patriots in coverage. The team faced 631 pass plays, meaning Talib was on the field for less than 30% of the pass plays the team faced, and less than 60% of those that happened while he was on the roster. This is a real fact that does lead to the belief that fans severely overrated his impact. Lets also not forget that 50 of them came vs the Colts when he played poorly, for which many fans gave him a pass for being out of game shape.

I don't personally mind PFF as much as many others when you take what they are trying to say into acct with the stats they are providing. I wouldn't go as far to say that "their only useful data is snap count" myself, but you obviously feel differently. As mentioned, many stats can be misleading, but sites like PFF that use their own determinators can be very controversial. Some of the data is actually fine, while some is complete garbage.

For example, here are some statements/analysis on certain topics from just one article pertaining to the Pats. Many of them make perfect sense to me:

WES WELKER

--Welker’s numbers speak for themselves. His 326 receptions, 3,771 yards, and 1,828 yards after the catch over the past three seasons rank first, third, and first at his position, respectively. And when it comes to production from the slot, Welker blows the rest of the league out of the water. He posted 325 catches and 2,768 yards on slot routes, while no other receiver had more than 202 receptions or 2,075 yards in that span. And Welker’s stats are as much quality as they are quantity; his 2.28 Yards Per Route Run in that in the last three years is 11th in the league.

It’s a testament to Welker’s dependability that in the 83 games we’ve graded him, he’s only once earned a mark lower than -2.0. While Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez shuffle in and out of the lineup with various injuries, Welker has missed only three games in his six years with the Patriots. One of those was New England’s 2010 playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, and it’s no coincidence that Tom Brady’s -5.3 grade on that day was the worst we’ve ever given him.

--While Welker has been fantastic from the slot, his Yards Per Route Run from there dropped from 2.83 in 2011 to 2.05 in 2012. Meanwhile, his Drop Rate rose from 9.63 to 11.28 in the same period.

SEBASTIAN VOLLMER

--Since entering the league as a second-round draft pick of the Patriots back in 2009, Vollmer has been a standout on their offensive line, never finishing a season with a cumulative grade of less than +8.3 – and that low mark came in a 2011 season where he played in just seven games. That’s a level of consistency that not many players at his position can boast, and something the Patriots would be wise not to let go of if they can avoid it.

As a run blocker this past season he was solid, finishing the year with a grade of +5.8 in that regard and while he only had one game where he really excelled in the running game, he also only had one with a run blocking grade of -0.5 or lower. It showed on the field for the Patriots, where they averaged a decent, if unspectacular, 3.91 Yards Per Carry on runs either side of Vollmer’s right tackle spot.

As a pass blocker, he allowed Tom Brady to be hit or sacked on just 13 of his 617 pass blocking snaps and his 35 total pressures allowed resulted in a Pass Blocking Efficiency (PBE) Rating of 95.5, tied for 22nd amongst all offensive tackles. He’s been consistent in that regard too, never finishing a season in his four year career with a PBE Rating lower than 94.6.

JULIAN EDELMAN

--New England gave him a chunk of Welker’s snaps in the first three weeks of this season, and he earned a combined -3.1 grade in those games. In 125 slot routes over the last three years, Edelman has totaled just eight catches, 69 yards, and just 0.56 Yards Per Route Run.

TOM BRADY/WES WELKER

While Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez shuffle in and out of the lineup with various injuries, Welker has missed only three games in his six years with the Patriots. One of those was New England’s 2010 playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, and it’s no coincidence that Tom Brady’s -5.3 grade on that day was the worst we’ve ever given him.
 
the main thing I find to be overrated about talib is the sense that he somehow belongs to the patriots any more than any other team.

It's slightly off-topic a bit but one of the biggest things that's been bugging me lately are those who claim that "Belichick and NE need to go out and win NOW. The team needs to do everything it can to have the best shot at winning the SB before Brady's window closes..."

That's a bunch of crap. Just since last off-season we've seen the following "win-now" moves made, and the whole Aqib Talib topic got me thinking:

--moved up in the draft and used BOTH first round draft picks in addessing the front seven problem with Jones and Hightower

--Gave up a 4th round pick (in exchange for a 7th) to acquire a 1/2 season rental of Talib

--Paid Welker over 10 million dollars with the franchise tag

--Addressed the WR problem by offering Reggie Wayne a better deal than the one he signed, which he turned down. After that they focused on one of the top WRs left that had knowledge and production of the system in Brandon Llyod

--Extended BOTH young TE's to big time multi-million dollar contracts of 6/53 and 7/41

--Took 2 more rookie draft picks in the secondary, both who started this season at one point

--Fought tooth and nail with their RG who was already under contract for the 2012 season, offering him at least a couple/few different options at increasing his salary

--Restructured Brady's deal at the end of March to help free up cap money

--Brought back McDaniels and Daboll to improve aspects of the offense



There are 9 significant points that prove to the "win now" method, which includes the topic of Aqib Talib. I don't think it's very fair for the fans to claim that Belichick isn't doing enough.

Like I said, it's a bit off-topic but the talk about Talib and his FA status got me thinking about the reality of some of the high profile moves made lately.
 
I don't personally mind PFF as much as many others when you take what they are trying to say into acct with the stats they are providing. I wouldn't go as far to say that "their only useful data is snap count" myself, but you obviously feel differently. As mentioned, many stats can be misleading, but sites like PFF that use their own determinators can be very controversial. Some of the data is actually fine, while some is complete garbage.

For example, here are some statements/analysis on certain topics from just one article pertaining to the Pats. Many of them make perfect sense to me:

WES WELKER

--Welker’s numbers speak for themselves. His 326 receptions, 3,771 yards, and 1,828 yards after the catch over the past three seasons rank first, third, and first at his position, respectively. And when it comes to production from the slot, Welker blows the rest of the league out of the water. He posted 325 catches and 2,768 yards on slot routes, while no other receiver had more than 202 receptions or 2,075 yards in that span. And Welker’s stats are as much quality as they are quantity; his 2.28 Yards Per Route Run in that in the last three years is 11th in the league.

It’s a testament to Welker’s dependability that in the 83 games we’ve graded him, he’s only once earned a mark lower than -2.0. While Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez shuffle in and out of the lineup with various injuries, Welker has missed only three games in his six years with the Patriots. One of those was New England’s 2010 playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, and it’s no coincidence that Tom Brady’s -5.3 grade on that day was the worst we’ve ever given him.

--While Welker has been fantastic from the slot, his Yards Per Route Run from there dropped from 2.83 in 2011 to 2.05 in 2012. Meanwhile, his Drop Rate rose from 9.63 to 11.28 in the same period.

SEBASTIAN VOLLMER

--Since entering the league as a second-round draft pick of the Patriots back in 2009, Vollmer has been a standout on their offensive line, never finishing a season with a cumulative grade of less than +8.3 – and that low mark came in a 2011 season where he played in just seven games. That’s a level of consistency that not many players at his position can boast, and something the Patriots would be wise not to let go of if they can avoid it.

As a run blocker this past season he was solid, finishing the year with a grade of +5.8 in that regard and while he only had one game where he really excelled in the running game, he also only had one with a run blocking grade of -0.5 or lower. It showed on the field for the Patriots, where they averaged a decent, if unspectacular, 3.91 Yards Per Carry on runs either side of Vollmer’s right tackle spot.

As a pass blocker, he allowed Tom Brady to be hit or sacked on just 13 of his 617 pass blocking snaps and his 35 total pressures allowed resulted in a Pass Blocking Efficiency (PBE) Rating of 95.5, tied for 22nd amongst all offensive tackles. He’s been consistent in that regard too, never finishing a season in his four year career with a PBE Rating lower than 94.6.

JULIAN EDELMAN

--New England gave him a chunk of Welker’s snaps in the first three weeks of this season, and he earned a combined -3.1 grade in those games. In 125 slot routes over the last three years, Edelman has totaled just eight catches, 69 yards, and just 0.56 Yards Per Route Run.

TOM BRADY/WES WELKER

While Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez shuffle in and out of the lineup with various injuries, Welker has missed only three games in his six years with the Patriots. One of those was New England’s 2010 playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, and it’s no coincidence that Tom Brady’s -5.3 grade on that day was the worst we’ve ever given him.

Anyone providing analysis is going to sometimes come up with things you agree with. When you look at their methods, quality of work, and overall conclisions it is clear that they are throwing darts in the dark. A few hitting the mark does not mean their analysis has any quality. I simply can't accept what I like while seeing so much that is so wrong.
 
I seen with my very own eyes what Anquain Boldin did when Aqib Talib was on the field and what he did when Talib went off injured. To me that said more than any amount of stats could ever do.


Realizing that every stat is relative to certain variables, Fletcher was ranked #1 in the NFL this year in yds allowed per snap that he was in coverage according to ProFootballFocus. I think that this needs to be taken with a grain of salt due to not being able to determine coverage assignments.

The NFL's top 3:

1. Bradley Fletcher 0.52
2. Ladarius Webb 0.60
3. Nate Clements 0.63

More importantly, the report shows that Aqib Talib was extremely overrated (as many of us already knew) and was actually the 2nd the the last in the NFL, right above Stanford Routt.

The bottom 3:

113. Tracy Porter 1.83
114. Aqib Talib 2.05 (improved to 1.74 with NE, in comparison Sterling Moore was 1.91 with NE this year just to put it in comparitive terms)
115. Stanfort Routt 2.22

Numbers say that Aqib Talib may be receiving too much credit for contributions to New England Patriots defense | masslive.com

To me this doesn't necessarily mean that we should go out and sign B.Fletcher of course, but it may mean that the other moves in our secondary such as McCourty to FS, Arrington to the slot, and Dennard to starting outside CB may have had a lot more bearing on the improvement than did the signing of Talib, which is what many of us thought.

I think that we need to pass on Talib unless a very reasonable deal can be reached, and they should turn their efforts to a number of other potential CBs. If Talib is willing to stay for a reasonable amount, then all the better as he did show some ability to cover good WRs better than anyone we've seen lately.

One other thing of note...

Ras-I-Dowling was the #1 ranked CB for the NEP in this stat this year, albeit in a very limited sample size of 9 overall targets.

NE Patriots CBs (yds allowed per snap in coverage)

1.Dowling 0.77
2.McCourty 1.16
3.Cole 1.18 (in only 22 targets)
4.Dennard 1.26
5.Arrington 1.28
6.Talib 1.74
 
I hate it when people say this. Asomugha has not "lost it" - maybe he's lost a step, but he's still an excellent cornerback.

People need to understand that Asomugha was a SAFETY in college. Al Davis liked how big he was, and in camp told him to go to the right side of the field and maul the guy in front of him and not let him get away.

The Eagles spent all this money on Nnamdi so they can have him shadow the opposing team's best receiver, play in the slot, play zone instead of press, etc. - thing's he's literally never done in his life. Yet he's still statistically one of the top corners in the NFL (completion % allowed). ie. They made a big money move without thinking it out (par the course for that offseason).

Belichick isn't a fool like the guys in Philly. I'm not saying it happens. But, if he signs Asomugha, he will keep him in his comfort zone and get excellent play out of him.

So are you saying the Pats sign Asomugha to play safety and then he becomes the next Ed Reed for us? I could live with that. :)

As for Talib, we still need a CB1 and he is our best in house shot at that. The question of course comes down to money and how it is structured. Talib is a risk for injury/suspension but he's also kind of a proven quantity in that he's shown he can work in our system.
 
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