Patriots concerned about Aqib Talib's work ethic

[RhodyPatriot]

According to Mike Giardi of CSNNE



Do you think this means we franchise him? He went on to say they think Talib can make 8-10 million on the open market, so they better franchise him if they want to keep him for that one year.

I would definitely franchise him. Patriots do not have the luxury of time. They need to shore up their defense NOW. The Brady window is closing and if this team is winning another championship they're doing it in the next couple of years. Talib is good and he allows McCourty to move over to S. I'll take Talib over Wes if it comes down to that.

 

[Lamanai]

I suppose you could put in all those provisions in the contract (injury, suspension, character, Etc...), so the Pats wouldn't have to pay him. But in the end, if he screws up it could cost a season. That would be my concern. I don't want to roll the dice on this guy and have to rely on him keeping clean so our aging HOF quarterback can pull out one last SB (or two). So what if the Krafts get to recoup the $$$...?

I think the Pats will end up letting him go somewhere else and will replace him with an aging veteran CB cap casualty/FA like Bailey, Jammer or Asomugha for half the money. Use the savings somewhere else.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I suppose you could put in all those provisions in the contract (injury, suspension, character, Etc...), so the Pats wouldn't have to pay him. But in the end, if he screws up it could cost a season. That would be my concern. I don't want to roll the dice on this guy and have to rely on him keeping clean so our aging HOF quarterback can pull out one last SB (or two). So what if the Krafts get to recoup the $$$...?

I think the Pats will end up letting him go somewhere else and will replace him with an aging veteran CB cap casualty/FA like Bailey, Jammer or Asomugha for half the money. Use the savings somewhere else.

Its not really about Kraft recouping the money, its recouping the salary cap hit to keep the team competitive if it doesn't work out.

The market dictates that a CB of his caliber would get around 5/50, however there is no way in the world I would give him that unless it had all sorts of opt-out clauses and playing time incentives. I would also have it worded so that if he was suspended for an entire year for a banned substance again, he would have to pay back like 75% of his signing bonus and the contract becomes null and void.

Someone out there though is going to give him a contract that matches what the market is at right now. There are lots and lots of CBs that have gotten 5/50... I think that is what he will be worth roughly, but his contract is going to have a lot of provisions regardless of which team signs him.

 

[Lamanai]

Its not really about Kraft recouping the money, its recouping the salary cap hit to keep the team competitive if it doesn't work out.

The market dictates that a CB of his caliber would get around 5/50, however there is no way in the world I would give him that unless it had all sorts of opt-out clauses and playing time incentives. I would also have it worded so that if he was suspended for an entire year for a banned substance again, he would have to pay back like 75% of his signing bonus and the contract becomes null and void.

Someone out there though is going to give him a contract that matches what the market is at right now. There are lots and lots of CBs that have gotten 5/50... I think that is what he will be worth roughly, but his contract is going to have a lot of provisions regardless of which team signs him.

I understand your point about recouping the salary and cap money. But what good is that going to do you, say Week 12 next season if he gets suspended? It's not like a viable replacement is sitting around waiting for a call. I just don't think we can gamble on something like that given Brady's age.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I understand your point about recouping the salary and cap money. But what good is that going to do you, say Week 12 next season if he gets suspended? It's not like a viable replacement is sitting around waiting for a call. I just don't think we can gamble on something like that given Brady's age.

Yea I think that even if they did manage to somehow sign Talib on a low risk contract, they would still have to make some efforts in FA and the draft to continue to bolster the secondary to increase depth and competition in training camp.

Ras-IR Dowling has 1 last chance this season to prove that he can stay healthy and live up to his draft status. Hes a big, physical guy and I think he could do what Talib can if he can only stay on the darn field!

 

[Lamanai]

Yea I think that even if they did manage to somehow sign Talib on a low risk contract, they would still have to make some efforts in FA and the draft to continue to bolster the secondary to increase depth and competition in training camp.

Ras-IR Dowling has 1 last chance this season to prove that he can stay healthy and live up to his draft status. Hes a big, physical guy and I think he could do what Talib can if he can only stay on the darn field!

I too have hopes for Dowling - I think he and Gostkowski are the only two picks I ever had corret in my mocks over the past few years!

I just see the Pats going the safer, more conservative route and pulling in a more reliable veteran, perhaps past his prime (e.g. value signing) Then, like you say, using other FA and draft resources to bolster the position.

 

[supafly]

Not really, Talib can probably get a 5 year 50ish mill contract. With his injury history, probably in his best interest to do so along with some nice guaranteed money.

I can't agree with you here, Froob.

The front office in Foxborough isn't the only one out of 32 NFL teams to have concerns about Talib.

5/50???

I'd be very surprised if he made much more than half of that, I'm thinking that someone may give him a deal that totals 25-30 million or so.

As AndyJohnson and I have talked plenty of times before, the SF 49'ers just gave Carlos Rogers a 4 yr/29 million dollar contract last season, and Rogers is a better player than Talib, not to mention that he doesn't have any of the off-field concerns.

Something in the range of Carlos Rogers is what Talib is looking at if he's lucky...there is just absolutely no way that anyone is going to give Aqib Talib one of the higher CB contracts in the league.

 

[Deus Irae]

I can't agree with you here, Froob.

The front office in Foxborough isn't the only one out of 32 NFL teams to have concerns about Talib.

5/50???

I'd be very surprised if he made much more than half of that, I'm thinking that someone may give him a deal that totals 25-30 million or so.

As AndyJohnson and I have talked plenty of times before, the SF 49'ers just gave Carlos Rogers a 4 yr/29 million dollar contract last season, and Rogers is a better player than Talib, not to mention that he doesn't have any of the off-field concerns.

Something in the range of Carlos Rogers is what Talib is looking at if he's lucky...there is just absolutely no way that anyone is going to give Aqib Talib one of the higher CB contracts in the league.

Just a point here....

Rogers is 31. Talib is 26. That's a factor in the equation, along with the others.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

I can't agree with you here, Froob.

The front office in Foxborough isn't the only one out of 32 NFL teams to have concerns about Talib.

5/50???

I'd be very surprised if he made much more than half of that, I'm thinking that someone may give him a deal that totals 25-30 million or so.

As AndyJohnson and I have talked plenty of times before, the SF 49'ers just gave Carlos Rogers a 4 yr/29 million dollar contract last season, and Rogers is a better player than Talib, not to mention that he doesn't have any of the off-field concerns.

Something in the range of Carlos Rogers is what Talib is looking at if he's lucky...there is just absolutely no way that anyone is going to give Aqib Talib one of the higher CB contracts in the league.

Its also worth noting that the teams who are desperate to throw money at a CB have better options in Cox (if he checks out health-wise), Keenan Lewis (who is on the record saying he wants to test FA), and Sean Smith (who some people think is the second priority in the MIA secondary behind a big money Reshad Jones extension)

 

[supafly]

Its not really about Kraft recouping the money, its recouping the salary cap hit to keep the team competitive if it doesn't work out.

I'm sure the Patriots will be setting up the right cap structure with any potential negotiations with Talib. It probably comes down to a one year 'prove it' deal/incentive laden or nothing anyway, so this whole conversation is likely moot.

Talib isn't going to attract 1/2 of the attention that so many think he is, but in the end all it takes is one moronic team to overpay and that's what we will probably see.

Someone out there though is going to give him a contract that matches what the market is at right now. There are lots and lots of CBs that have gotten 5/50...

Considering that the franchise tag for CBs is right around the average salary for your proposed 5/50 at 10 million aav, I don't this statement is very true.

I would love to hear your definition of "lots and lots of CBs that have gotten 5/50," as you probably couldn't name more than a total of 6-8 players at the position. Max..

And Stanford Routt does not count.

 

[Froob]

Keep in mind, it only takes one team to do it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'm sure the Patriots will be setting up the right cap structure with any potential negotiations with Talib. It probably comes down to a one year 'prove it' deal/incentive laden or nothing anyway, so this whole conversation is likely moot.

Talib isn't going to attract 1/2 of the attention that so many think he is, but in the end all it takes is one moronic team to overpay and that's what we will probably see.





Considering that the franchise tag for CBs is right around the average salary for your proposed 5/50 at 10 million aav, I don't this statement is very true.

I would love to hear your definition of "lots and lots of CBs that have gotten 5/50," as you probably couldn't name more than a total of 6-8 players at the position. Max..

And Stanford Routt does not count.

I agree there is absolutely no way Talib gets 5/50. I'm thinking 3/21 (7M) or 4/26 (6M) is much more likely.

Despite playing a different position, he reminds me a lot of Santonio Holmes. Both are considered good players but not elite- maybe borderline pro-bowl at their best. Both are headcases liable to blow up at any time. Holmes went for a 5th round pick in his last year, while Talib went for a 4th round pick for half of his last year. And both were traded amidst suspensions.

Holmes had a good first year with the NYJs and got his 5/50 deal. It will be a cautionary tale that a honeymoon period with a new team does not mean a guy like this is worth that kind of risk.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Of course his work ethic is of concern. The only way it wouldn't be of concern is if replacement-quality substitutes weren't available. Which, obviously, they are.

incorrect. it is only a concern if he doesn't show up on sundays despite a poor work ethic. if his poor practice habits get in the way of how well he performs during a game then yes, i agree with you. he seemed to be doing pretty well out there when he was on the field, miles better than mccourty, arrington, etc.

 

[supafly]

Here are the top 10 paid CBs in the league for the 2012-2013 season.

I am counting ONE "5/50" guy on here, and that is Asomugha, who won't ever see that anyway. He is at #3

1.Champ Bailey 4/43.

2.Darelle Revis 4/46.

3.Asomugah 5/60.

4.D.Hall 6/55.

5. (tie)

Gamble 6/53.

Joseph 5/48.7

7.L.Hall 5/42.

8.Cromartie 4/32.

9.Flowers 6/49.

10.Tillman 7/41.


I am wondering about Webb, Finnegan, and Carr from last season. Maybe their averages are not high enough, as this seems to be based on cap hit alone. For what it's worth:

Webb 6/50

Carr 5/50

Finnegan 5/50


So, if you count Finnegan and Carr that would make a grand total of THREE including Asomugah.

Numeroten | The Best Top 10 Lists on the Web!

 

[eom]

I can't agree with you here, Froob.

The front office in Foxborough isn't the only one out of 32 NFL teams to have concerns about Talib.

5/50???

I'd be very surprised if he made much more than half of that, I'm thinking that someone may give him a deal that totals 25-30 million or so.

As AndyJohnson and I have talked plenty of times before, the SF 49'ers just gave Carlos Rogers a 4 yr/29 million dollar contract last season, and Rogers is a better player than Talib, not to mention that he doesn't have any of the off-field concerns.

Something in the range of Carlos Rogers is what Talib is looking at if he's lucky...there is just absolutely no way that anyone is going to give Aqib Talib one of the higher CB contracts in the league.

talib won't get top dollar, or maybe more than 3 yrs, but it's still a premium position and he happens to be one of the handful of fa this year.
so, I don't think it's all about his ability next to everyone, so much as it's the timing of him being available while rogers and the rest aren't

franchising him leaves the pats at 5m, which seems pretty slim, and I'll bet some team offers him 7m+/yr, which is maybe more than the pats would want to pay him.

 

[supafly]

Just a point here....

Rogers is 31. Talib is 26. That's a factor in the equation, along with the others.

Fair point that age will come into factor with many other variables.

One thing to keep in mind is that C.Rogers was coming off of a 6 INT year where he started every single game and played both safety and corner for the 49'ers.

In his last 5 yrs he has played in 76/80 games. 4 times he played in every single game of the season, so really he went through one period where he missed 4 games in the past 5 years.

I'm just not seeing that kind of talent from Talib let alone durability, and that isn't even bringing up his character issues, supposed laziness, and off-field concerns. He's also one suspension/mistake away from missing an entire season and was just in the middle of a murder investigation when the weather was warmer.

Age is one factor, but there are many, many more than point to C.Rogers being a superior CB. If you don't care for the specific comparison yourself, there are other names for top 10 paid CB's in the post above to check out.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here are the top 10 paid CBs in the league for the 2012-2013 season.

I am counting ONE "5/50" guy on here, and that is Asomugha, who won't ever see that anyway. He is at #3....

Just another note....

playing 5/50 strictly is a bit misleading. Revis is "only" getting 4/46, but that's actually a higher average rate of return for him than a 5/50 deal would be, and it sets him up for FA a year earlier, while he's still theoretically in his NFL prime.

Bailey's 4/43 falls into that same category of having the higher rate of annual return than 5/50, and it was with an older player.

 

[Deus Irae]

Fair point that age will come into factor with many other variables.

One thing to keep in mind is that C.Rogers was coming off of a 6 INT year where he started every single game and played both safety and corner for the 49'ers.

In his last 5 yrs he has played in 76/80 games. 4 times he played in every single game of the season, so really he went through one period where he missed 4 games in the past 5 years.

I'm just not seeing that kind of talent from Talib let alone durability, and that isn't even bringing up his character issues, supposed laziness, and off-field concerns. He's also one suspension/mistake away from missing an entire season and was just in the middle of a murder investigation when the weather was warmer.

Age is one factor, but there are many, many more than point to C.Rogers being a superior CB. If you don't care for the specific comparison yourself, there are other names for top 10 paid CB's in the post above to check out.

Don't get me wrong.... Rogers was pretty high up on my "want" list, and I'm not in favor of breaking the bank for Talib. I'm just pointing out some issues with the comparisons, that's all.

 

[supafly]

talib won't get top dollar, or maybe more than 3 yrs, but it's still a premium position and he happens to be one of the handful of fa this year.
so, I don't think it's all about his ability next to everyone, so much as it's the timing of him being available while rogers and the rest aren't

franchising him leaves the pats at 5m, which seems pretty slim, and I'll bet some team offers him 7m+/yr, which is maybe more than the pats would want to pay him.

Yeah, the timing certainly plays a factor, as does his rejuvenation period from mid-November on in Foxborough.

Those are the biggest two factors that will pay him around your prediction of 7m/yr, which I can actually see as viable due to your reasoning.

The position itself is overpaid, so that's certainly another factor to consider and one that points to his favor.

I agree with your numbers, and that's exactly why I see a 4/30 pact being the ceiling for him, hence the comparison to C.Rogers' deal at 4/29. It remains to be seen if Talib beats Rogers' deal or not, but I think the two deals are very comparable myself.

5/50 isn't going to happen, unless the cap floor is being totally underestimated by all of us and there is a strange plethora of money being thrown around, but I highly doubt it.

 

[supafly]

Just another note....

playing 5/50 strictly is a bit misleading. Revis is "only" getting 4/46, but that's actually a higher average rate of return for him than a 5/50 deal would be, and it sets him up for FA a year earlier, while he's still theoretically in his NFL prime.

Bailey's 4/43 falls into that same category of having the higher rate of annual return than 5/50, and it was with an older player.

Another point to consider, but his quote of "lots and lots of CBs making 5/50 today" was a bit misleading.

I am seeing 5/50 at the top, or at least very close to it. Otherwise the franchise number for the position wouldn't be around 10m per year/slightly higher which is obviously the average of 5/50.

I would have liked another list to pick from but couldn't find one. I imagine that this poorly reputable site is at least comparable however.