OT: Dolphins hire Mike Nolan as DC

[carolinatony]

"Treading water doesn't work". I like that. The Patriots better be

active in free agency and have a good draft or the rest of the AFC East

will leave them in the dust.

What he said.

I hope its not becase we won't pay for good coaches except BB.

 

[furley]

You want to try and re-build the team in FA and the draft without a DC in place? That doesn't make sense to me.

The DC is going to be responsible for molding these guys into a unit and getting them to work together. I would think you would want to have a coach in place to work with BB and the personnel people to identify targets. Obviously BB is going to run the show, but I suspect in the old days that Romeo and Charlie Weis had their share of input into the offseason process.

Um, what are you talking about? I gave no specific order of anything. I was just writing out loud. Of course I want a defensive coordinator in place. Did you not read my entire post?

 

[BPF]

Yes, and it doesn't seem to be doing them much good. There is a consistent pattern here, we lose RAC and CW and we don't win the Superbowl since.

The NY Giants had a ferocious defense which has withered since the departure of Steve Spagmuolo.

The Chicago Bears were great but they never won after Buddy Ryan left as DC.

If the Patriots don't invest in coordinators they will continue to fail.

As recently as 2006 Spagnuolo was a LB coach w/Eagles who not many people knew much about before he was DC for Giants in SB win. If the next DC is Patricia it doesn't mean he won't be successful because he's not a "name." I know someone who used to coach w/Patricia at Amhert and he told me that he is extremely intelligent and has a very aggressive approach to defense. Whether it's Pepper or Patricia or someone else outside of the organization it's going to be a combination of good coaching and good players that makes the defense perform better. Overall I think that Pees shortcomings were his conservative approach and his inability to make adjustments. It seemed like the defensive plan going in to games was good but as the game went on adjustments could not be made. I'm not saying Pees isn't a good football man either but some people can't make the right calls or adjustments when the heat is on. I also feel as though the Pats certainly need some playmakers, some game changers but there are some good pieces on this defense.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Peyton Manning has had the same OC for his entire career...I want a guy that will do the same for the most part, at least 4 years.

 

[mayoclinic]

Um, what are you talking about? I gave no specific order of anything. I was just writing out loud. Of course I want a defensive coordinator in place. Did you not read my entire post?

Sorry, I misunderstood you. But yes, I did read your entire post. Your post said "I prefer to hire a proven commodity, someone who has a history of turning defenses around that were previously poorish or mediocre. But the Patriots need to get themselves play-makers on defense first." So I assumed you were saying just go get the players and then worry about the coordinator.

 

[Kontradiction]

Peyton Manning has had the same OC for his entire career...I want a guy that will do the same for the most part, at least 4 years.

As long as we keep hiring from within and winning with the coordinators we have, that will never happen. Unfortunately, even though BB products have not won a Super Bowl or National Championship to date, people will still pick our coordinators clean in an effort to find "the next Belichick".

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, and it doesn't seem to be doing them much good. There is a consistent pattern here, we lose RAC and CW and we don't win the Superbowl since.

The NY Giants had a ferocious defense which has withered since the departure of Steve Spagmuolo.

The Chicago Bears were great but they never won after Buddy Ryan left as DC.

If the Patriots don't invest in coordinators they will continue to fail.

1.) The team with Weis/Crennel didn't win the Super Bowl every year

2.) McDaniels was a better OC than Weis

3.) The 2005 team had a starting ILB have a stroke in the offseason and had the other starting ILB retire in training camp. It had Duane Starks starting at corner for about half the season. It still went into the playoffs and won a game before losing on the road in Denver.

4.) The 2006 team had its top receiver hold out to the point where he had to be traded away. That team still made it to the AFCCG before collapsing at least partly to an illness which struck much of the defense and resulted in Alexander trying to cover Colts tight ends when he didn't even belong on the field.

5.) The 2007 team went 18-0 before losing the Super Bowl

6.) The 2008 team became the first team to win 11 games and not make the playoffs under the latest format of 12 teams and 8 divisions.

7.) 10/17, 7/2, 1/4, 8/8.... those are the offensive and defensive scoring rankings of the Patriots from 2005-2008. Even ignoring 2000, you get the following from Rac/Weis: 6/6, 10/17, 12/1. 4/2. It's not as if either the offense or the defense has been crushed in this category by its earlier incarnation.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Deus Irae,

I'm trying to figure out what your point is, mine is that getting and keeping good coordinators is very important, do you disagree?

Right now we are suffering for lack of good coordinators and I think effots should be made to fix this, I would have taken Nolan in a heartbeat but now an arch rival has him, I don't think this is a good thing.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus Irae,

I'm trying to figure out what your point is, mine is that getting and keeping good coordinators is very important, do you disagree?

Right now we are suffering for lack of good coordinators and I think effots should be made to fix this, I would have taken Nolan in a heartbeat but now an arch rival has him, I don't think this is a good thing.

You made a lousy argument with the Weis/Crennel stuff. Very few teams keep the OC and DC for long periods of time, as turnover is the norm in the league. It certainly didn't hurt the Patriots to change from Weis to McDaniels and, as I noted, Pees did a comparable job overall with the scoring defense to Crennel, and he did so with less talent.

As for what the team is suffering from, I'd assert that coordinator issues are fairly low on the "problems" totem pole.

 

[Snake Eyes]

First off, I never said Weis/RAC were God's gift to coordinating, only that they were much better than what we have now, McDaniels was ok but he's also gone. I'm saying we a lot better than what we have now.

But that's ok, I'm sure they won't hire anyone worth a damn and next year's season will be worse than this one.

 

[Deus Irae]

First off, I never said Weis/RAC were God's gift to coordinating, only that they were much better than what we have now, McDaniels was ok but he's also gone. I'm saying we a lot better than what we have now.

But that's ok, I'm sure they won't hire anyone worth a damn and next year's season will be worse than this one.

You're absolutely correct in asserting that Weis and Crennel are better than what the Patriots currently have. The Patriots currently have no DC and no OC, so there's a clear choice here. Now, when the positions are actually filled, I'll gladly revisit this issue. If it's O'Brien and Patricia, I'll point out that I expect major improvement in how smoothly the offense runs this year along with some bumps on the defensive road that will be smoothed out by Belichick.

 

[The Dynasty]

You made a lousy argument with the Weis/Crennel stuff. Very few teams keep the OC and DC for long periods of time, as turnover is the norm in the league. It certainly didn't hurt the Patriots to change from Weis to McDaniels and, as I noted, Pees did a comparable job overall with the scoring defense to Crennel, and he did so with less talent.

As for what the team is suffering from, I'd assert that coordinator issues are fairly low on the "problems" totem pole.

Maybe on the defensive side of the ball, but on offensive it was the main issue in my opinion. The lack of a dependable OC had an effect on the entire offense. The plays were taking much more time to be called resulting in the Pats wasting time outs and delay of game penalties. There was no in game adjustments, Brady didnt have anyone to talk to on the sidelines. The lack of a good OC definitely brought Brady's numbers down. Also, the play calling was terrible all season long effecting the team in general, it played a major factor in the team not being able to hold 2nd half leads.

 

[Zeus]

Very few teams keep the OC and DC for long periods of time, as turnover is the norm in the league.

A very important point. The most successful coordinators become instant head coaching candidates. Hoping to keep outstanding coordinators in place for longer periods of time flies in the face of reality.

 

[BPF]

They wanted Nolan more and actually formally asked permission to speak with him last week about their DC job. The fact that Nolan wanted to speak with them probably has something to do with he and McDaniels "mutual" decision to part ways.

Report: Nolan left Denver after Dolphins sought permission to interview him | ProFootballTalk.com

 

[mayoclinic]

A very important point. The most successful coordinators become instant head coaching candidates. Hoping to keep outstanding coordinators in place for longer periods of time flies in the face of reality.

True. Some young hotshots like Mike Tomlin, Sean Payton, Eric Mangini, Rex Ryan and Josh McDaniels get HC jobs relatively quickly. But some of the most successful OCs and DCs are failed head coaches. Fail once, and you may earn a shot back in. But fail spectacularly, or fail twice, or fail and be too old, and it's unlikely. Look at **** LeBeau with Pittsburgh. He's 72, and will stay with Pittsburgh until he retires. Romeo Crennel's 62, and he really isn't likely to get another HC chance. Neither was a particularly good HC, and both are excellent coordinators.

**** Jauron will be 60 next year. He's failed twice as HC, in Chicago and Buffalo. I don't think he's going to get another shot anytime soon, even if he is a successful coordinator. I'd say there's a greater chance of Patricia leaving in a few years if we make him DC and he's successful.

 

[jnhs46]

The Broncos' defense played like overachievers, often, and Nolan seems like a major upgrade for the Dolphins.

 

[Sicilian]

The team can afford whoever they want. However, I would be surprised if our coordinators under Belichick were paid anywhere near the league average or the average for playoff teams.

But again, is that because they don't WANT to pay them, or because they don't HAVE to pay them? As we lose experienced coordinators and replace them with former position coaches within the system, those promoted position coaches are NOT going to earn the same payscale as someone who has been coordinating for several years.

The point again comes down to this: The Patriots and BB believe that it is better to promote from within than bring in an outside personality. This RESULTS in lower paid coaches, and you can argue that it is not an effective strategy. But I see no reason to believe that Kraft is sitting there thinking, "BB says this guy would be a better OC than Bill O'Brien, but O'Brien is $500,000 cheaper so we'll go with him." That's nothing but baseless speculation.

 

[Kontradiction]

The Broncos' defense played like overachievers, often, and Nolan seems like a major upgrade for the Dolphins.

He is an upgrade. However, that team has even more holes to fill on defense than we do. They need a new NT, new DE, they could realistically replace the entire LB corps (Porter and Taylor are very old and were relatively ineffective this season, Crowder is extremely overrated and tends to disappear for a couple of games at a time, Akin Ayodele is a JAG, and Cameron Wake is a tremendous pass rusher but is suspect in the run game). They have two promising corners in Davis and Smith, but Will Allen is a bit long in the tooth as is Bell and Gibril Wilson just flat out is not that good. There is quite a bit of a talent gap there. The Dolphins won't arrive for another two years at the very least, due to the amount of makeovers they need on the defensive side of the ball and their WR situation.