PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Opinion: Jonathan Kraft not representing the Krafts well during labor battle


Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by townes
Once again, the players were fine with the way it was, they didn't opt out and ask for more. You guys can keep on making stuff up but it certainly doesn't help your argument, rather it shows just how weak it is.

So is your contention that the owners were all swimming in money but decided to cause this mess because they just want to swim in more money?
 
It doesn't matter.

Ask the NHL players how their owners would never dare to hold out over a whole season, to get costs in control through cutting salaries....

If you think the NFL and the NHL are good comparisons I don't know what to tell you. The NHL probably would have went out of business, the NFL not so much.
 
This editorial by Hub Arkush sums up exactly how I see this situation and I agree with his conclusion, which is essentially that the owners caused it but that D. Smith may not be acting in the interests of the players and a big win by the players could now lead to the lawyers and agents driving the bus right off the cliff. I heard the interview between Schaap and D. Smith right before the Draft started and could not have been more discouraged by it, and I thought the way that Smith avoided the question about what his intentions were was disgraceful. He could have put the issue of whether or not he was out to take down the structure of the game with a simple "no" but instead deflected and refused to answer, which is really disturbing. I agree with Arkush that the players don't want to change the structure of the game but unless they assert themselves with their own counsel that could end up being the result.

ProFootballWeekly.com - Smith jeopardizing players' position
 
So is your contention that the owners were all swimming in money but decided to cause this mess because they just want to swim in more money?


Yes, they see huge TV deals on the horizon and don't want the players to continue getting their share of them.
 
Yes, they see huge TV deals on the horizon and don't want the players to continue getting their share of them.

This I agree with, Ive been saying since the beginning they want a better deal in place before the next contract comes up because revenues are going to skyrocket. I read a report where revenues could go up to over 20+ billion per year.
 
Last edited:
4. As to the money, which in the end is ALL this is about, right now the players get is about 60% of the total revenue. They want 50% How would you solve the impass

Thanks I look forward to your reply



Ken, I responded a few days ago to most of your points and the editorial i just linked to explains how i see this perfectly, you should read it.

As far as a fair deal goes i see it this way.

1) Keep the basic revenue sharing system in place but tie the initial give back, currently 1 billion, to revenues and have it increase proportionately as revenues go up.

2) Decrease the players cut of remaining revenues by 5%.

3) Install a rookie cap. Reduce service time for free agency eligibility. The two tie together as it is not fair to reduce rookie contracts but expect them to wait just as long for a deal based upon their production.

4) Keep the players share of remaining revenues the same regardless of the growth of revenues.

5) Use any fines levied against the owners for unfair labor practices to fund retired player healthcare, create a long term funding structure that both owners and players fund equally.

6) Limit the revenue streams in play for sharing. Vrabel is dead wrong on the issue of Patriot Place, ventures the owners invest in related to their football properties but not tied to the game should be entirely off limits, the players don't invest in them in any way and have no right to any of the revenues from them. On the other hand the owners have no right to use losses from these ventures as evidence they are not making enough money, the two are separate and should stay that way.


The players are giving more under this deal than the owners and it should be fair enough for all to agree on.

4) HGH testing.
 
I don't mean to be an ass here, but I'm going to. Do you think about this stuff before you write it? Or is it just inane stream of thought?


YOu really think the owners, who had no chance in court, and never win in court, never had any intention of dealing, because they wanted this to go to court? Are you high?


I don't think the owners ever thought the players would call their bluff, and if they did they were betting that the slow crawl of a legal battle would cause the players to crumble and fold, which they most likely would have had Nelson not ruled so decisively for the players. I don't think anyone expected the case to be fast tracked the way it has been. The owners were counting on this dragging on into August and believed the players would not be able to stick together that long.

I think the owners miscalculated that things would go as they have and the players are now miscalculating that D. Smith and the lawers/agents will act in their best interests.
 
This is a lot like the Obama birth certificate thing:

The teams HAVE shown their books. The players basically want receipts. There's no amount of evidence thats going to get one side to believe the other.

Packers are NFP, I'm sure you know their books are not typical of an NFL franchise. Furthermore as I understand the situation the owners would assert that they need not show their books to anyone as their books are not germaine to the negotiation.
 
Unless the owners demonstrate otherwise, I am going to assume that the old CBA that worked for many years was good enough.

Which "old CBA" worked for many years? The CBA has morphed and changed from where it was at in 1993. The 2006 CBA saw MAJOR changes to it. Particularly to revenue sharing amongst the owners and in terms of how the revenue was calculated in terms of figuring out the cap.

So, you'll have to be more specific...
 
Packers are NFP, I'm sure you know their books are not typical of an NFL franchise. Furthermore as I understand the situation the owners would assert that they need not show their books to anyone as their books are not germaine to the negotiation.

While the Packers are Not for Profit, I don't understand how you can say their books aren't typical? The only difference between how the Pats books are done and the Packers books are done is that the money that is "PROFIT" for the Packers get's rolled back into their budget for the next year while, for the Pats, the "PROFIT" it goes to the Krafts.
 
It would have to be because that's the only defense of them that has been offered to this point. No-one can make a factual argument for them so "because they say so" will have to do.



To all those saying the players asked for more and then try to cite negotiations AFTER the owners opted out------that was never the point or the argument and no-one knows who has really offered what in those negotiations. The players were satisfied with the current agreement and willing to continue with it, the owners want more and opted out for it, they killed the game and they deserve all the blame for it.

This is the simpleton way of looking at things. Everyone with even a modicum of sense knew that the owners were going to opt out of the CBA at the earliest possible moment. And they knew it before the ink was dry on the 2006 CBA.

As for the players being satisfied, that is hardly true. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had a laundry list of items ready to go for the new CBA talks.

Now, I find it funny that you continue to beat this drum blaming the owners, yet you have failed to provide one SHRED of evidence of an offer from the players to the owners other than "status quo".

As for people providing sound and legitimate arguments as to why the owners opted out, people have done that. You've ignored it. Just like you've ignored the questions asked of you.
 
Yes, they see huge TV deals on the horizon and don't want the players to continue getting their share of them.

No they don't.. They know that the market is saturated and short of adding more commercial breaks during games (which fans don't want), TV revenues will not go up nearly the way they did from 2006 through 2011. Many companies have cut their advertising budgets because of the down economy.
 
I don't think the owners ever thought the players would call their bluff, and if they did they were betting that the slow crawl of a legal battle would cause the players to crumble and fold, which they most likely would have had Nelson not ruled so decisively for the players. I don't think anyone expected the case to be fast tracked the way it has been. The owners were counting on this dragging on into August and believed the players would not be able to stick together that long.

I think the owners miscalculated that things would go as they have and the players are now miscalculating that D. Smith and the lawers/agents will act in their best interests.

Just remember that the last legal battle took 6 years... Its a marathon, not a sprint.. And there are more than a few players on the wrong side of 30 who are UFAs..
 
Originally Posted by townes
Yes, they see huge TV deals on the horizon and don't want the players to continue getting their share of them.

No they don't.. They know that the market is saturated and short of adding more commercial breaks during games (which fans don't want), TV revenues will not go up nearly the way they did from 2006 through 2011. Many companies have cut their advertising budgets because of the down economy.

I disagree with a lot of what Townes is saying but I think hes right on this part. They're going to see huge contracts for the next TV deal along with users of personal devices where they can pay for games. Say your with your wife shopping or at the in laws, you'll be able to access your favorite team on your own personal pocket device and the wife will never know your watching the game while shes trying on those clothes. Ive seen estimates that in the future revenues will be 20+ billion/year. Ill see if I can find the articles Ive read pertaining to this.
 
Ken, I responded a few days ago to most of your points and the editorial i just linked to explains how i see this perfectly, you should read it.

As far as a fair deal goes i see it this way.

1) Keep the basic revenue sharing system in place but tie the initial give back, currently 1 billion, to revenues and have it increase proportionately as revenues go up. So you are basically saying to make the owners expense deduction (my term for the money off the top) a % of the total revenue. Currently, the 1 billion is about 11.11% of 9 Billion. 2 billion is 22.22%. Would a 16% rate be fair? Or maybe a rate that increases by 1% each year during the 1st 5 years, so that it ends up at 16%?

2) Decrease the players cut of remaining revenues by 5%. So, cut the player's share to 55% of the remaining amount after the "owners expense deduction"

3) Install a rookie cap. Reduce service time for free agency eligibility. The two tie together as it is not fair to reduce rookie contracts but expect them to wait just as long for a deal based upon their production. There is no reason to wait. If their agents are any decent, they get bonuses thrown into their contracts. As it it, players can become free agents after 4 years. It takes 3 years for most teams to truly know the type of player they have. The proposed changes will come at the top of the draft, primarily. Why shouldn't a 1st round pick have to wait until his 4th year?

4) Keep the players share of remaining revenues the same regardless of the growth of revenues. You are going to have to be more specific. Do you mean keep the % the same? Or the total dollar amount? They are two different things. I am for keeping the % the same. Not for keeping the total dollar amount the same. Keeping the % the same would account for any drop in revenue to be recognized by both sides. Keeping a total dollar amount means the players wouldn't actually see a drop in revenue.

5) Use any fines levied against the owners for unfair labor practices to fund retired player healthcare, create a long term funding structure that both owners and players fund equally. Yes, penalize the owners even more. Even though they just put $83 million into it and the players haven't put squat in how many decades? There shouldn't be any fines for "unfair labor practices" to begin with. Especially with how the players haven't truly negotiated.

6) Limit the revenue streams in play for sharing. Vrabel is dead wrong on the issue of Patriot Place, ventures the owners invest in related to their football properties but not tied to the game should be entirely off limits, the players don't invest in them in any way and have no right to any of the revenues from them. On the other hand the owners have no right to use losses from these ventures as evidence they are not making enough money, the two are separate and should stay that way. Wow.. Something we agree on. Vrabel and Kelly are dolts. There is nothing that says that the players can invest in those things themselves instead of $1million mansions, $500K cars, etc, etc.


The players are giving more under this deal than the owners and it should be fair enough for all to agree on.

4) HGH testing.


One of the MAJOR issues I have with so many of the players is that they have the attitude that the money is somehow OWED to them. That they are ENTITLED to it.

I'd love to see one of the "offers" the players sent back to the owners. If there were actually any. The fact that we've not seen any actually leads me to believe that the players haven't truly negotiated. That they've been nixing the different offers out of spite.

Now, I don't agree with Goodell on the last offer from the owners that it was a great deal. It wasn't. As I said to PFK, it gave the players a lot, BUT, it took A LOT, also. And I can understand why they rejected it. But they could have easily built on that offer. THAT would have called the owner's "bluff". If the owners truly didn't want to negotiate and wanted to go to court, submitting a counter-offer to the owner's offer and making it public would have been the real way to do it. Not this lawsuit garbage..

I'll be honest. I believe that after the Special Master ruled in the owners favor and Doty ruled against them, the owners KNEW they were going to the 8th Circuit Court. And that they knew if it did, they'd have at least an even chance, which is better than what they had with Doty or Nelson.
 
I disagree with a lot of what Townes is saying but I think hes right on this part. They're going to see huge contracts for the next TV deal along with users of personal devices where they can pay for games. Say your with your wife shopping or at the in laws, you'll be able to access your favorite team on your own personal pocket device and the wife will never know your watching the game while shes trying on those clothes. Ive seen estimates that in the future revenues will be 20+ billion/year. Ill see if I can find the articles Ive read pertaining to this.

That won't happen before 2014 because of the DirecTV contact. You'll get your Red Zone, but unless DirecTV changes the contract with the NFL (again), there won't be individual games available on any phone service. And I know this from talking to DirecTV about my Sunday Ticket. Said they'd be able to make more money with A la Carte service than the combined. The person said that wouldn't be happening in the foreseeable future because of the NFL Contract.

Now, what I can see the NFL doing is entering into contracts with the different phone providers to have Sunday Ticket on your phone at an additional cost. Or a separate cost if you don't want it for your home. But it will be the full blown Sunday Ticket.

But how much new revenue would that produce. For me, I wouldn't pay the extra because I DVR the games at home and can just ignore the scores until I watch it.

The problem with the "projections" is that many of them are using 2005 and 2006 dollars as their starting point and ignoring the major economic downturn we've been through.
 
While the Packers are Not for Profit, I don't understand how you can say their books aren't typical? The only difference between how the Pats books are done and the Packers books are done is that the money that is "PROFIT" for the Packers get's rolled back into their budget for the next year while, for the Pats, the "PROFIT" it goes to the Krafts.

Come on, there are so many unique facets to GB that they can't really be compared to other franchises in terms of valuation. For one thing the franchise effectively can't be moved or sold, unlike every other franchise. One Shareholder can't own more than 200k shares of the 4.7M in existence. They are in a tiny market, limiting non-NFL merchandising income. Income is handled differently than for for profits. I don't know for sure but I suspect Green Bay could be the least valuable franchise in the NFL in many ways and therefore isn't enough of an analogue to the rest of the franchises for the owners to claim that seeing GB's books is equivalent to seeing all of the books.
 
Last edited:
Questioning how well Jonathan did in his rambling interview is a waste of time.

What everyone should be up in arms about is the notion that the owners would "go nuclear" and shut down all NFL operations.

Rumors fly of a complete NFL shutdown | ProFootballTalk

THAT would not be representing the owners well in my opinion and they'd lose whatever fan support they have right now
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


TRANSCRIPT: Patriots QB Drake Maye Conference Call
Patriots Now Have to Get to Work After Taking Maye
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf and Jerod Mayo After Patriots Take Drake Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/25: News and Notes
Patriots Kraft ‘Involved’ In Decision Making?  Zolak Says That’s Not the Case
MORSE: Final First Round Patriots Mock Draft
Slow Starts: Stark Contrast as Patriots Ponder Which Top QB To Draft
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/24: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/23: News and Notes
MORSE: Final 7 Round Patriots Mock Draft, Matthew Slater News
Back
Top