Off Season Misspent

[supafly]

Belichick made a bold attempt to provide more talent, depth, and competition this off-season. The expansion of the TC roster certainly came into play in this instance. Having top notch competition is good for both sides of the ball, and a couple/few of those guys became injured along the way, which isn't anyone's fault for sure.

In that vein, I believe that it wasn't 'wasted' as you say, but actually strengthened.

Other than the offensive line which are NONE of Belichick's fault, (retirement, holdout, injury issues) every single position has likely been strengthened. The interest in a backup practice squad QB may even further that stance at that position too, as 3 were not needed on the 53 man roster. That allowed other parts of the team to be addressed, and may even end up making our overall QB situation stronger too.

 

[DarrylS]

The title of this thread is completely disengenuous.. to intimate that because a lot of people were let go, while adding what looks to be a nice crop of draft picks and udfa's substantiates this..

As a team we have gotten faster, younger and deeper in all areas..
How many times do you hear the rhetoric of a rebuilding year??

This team has been pretty much rebuilt in all areas, without any disruptions.. which is a real credit in the salary cap era.

 

[patchick]

OP, to make yourself feel better, try replicating your exact opening post from the perspective of youth rather than pricy, aging veterans. Like so:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Draft Season Well Spent

Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Tavon Wilson
Jake Bequette
Nate Ebner
Alfonzo Dennard
Jeremy Francis
Marcus Forston
Brandon Bolden

I know every team gets 7 draft picks, but look at this list of rookies making a squad coming off a Super Bowl appearance. These are not JAG retreads or last-gasp veterans playing out their final season. These guys are young, smart, athletic, inexpensive players who beat out established vets, and there's no telling how much they could do for us.

I'm not an "in BB we trust" fan, but the amount of time and resources put into the draft by this regime does seem to be setting the team up well for the future.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

IOW, they chose the 53 players (or rather 52 + one revolving tryout spot) they liked best. The fact that they weren't the players fans expected -- which is to say, the familiar established names -- isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes for a cheaper, more athletic, and hopefully healthier roster which should bode well for the coming years, both in talent and cap flexibility. Assuming they chose right, of course.

 

[resdubwhite]

Great post Patchick.

When you look at the rookies added to the team. Its hard to argue that it was an off season misspent.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Deion Branch
Jabar Gaffney
Jonathan Fanene
Spencer Larsen
Tony Flammatta
Bobby Carpenter
Donta Stallworth
Robert Gallery
Dan Koppen
Anthony Gonzalez
Will Allen
Joseph Addia
James Iheldigbo
Chad Johnson

I know every team cuts players but I look at this list of players. These are not UDFA or even younger NFL players that could have untapped ability. These guys are all veterans with plenty of tape and reports on them to show what they could do for us.

I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.

So I guess your solution would be to sign a few invalids and high schoolers for fewer "Benjamins" and when they are cut....it looks like you saved money and better managed resources.

The reality is you gots it completely bass ackwards. The fact that a relatively unimportant amount of money was spent to produce the highest quality 90 candidates was a source of strength.

That's why you are hear at patsfans.com and not in the front office.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Ah, yes, all of those "wasted reps" taken up by players who don't make it on the final roster. How dare BB squander all that time, when clearly he should have voluntarily declined to expand the off-season roster from 80 to 90, like all the truly smart coaches in the league did.

Wait, nobody actually did that? :bricks:

The OP obviously missed the obviously obvious fact that those reps were what actually determined they would not be here.

 

[Urgent]

The rosters were at 90 men. It is inevitable to happen.

That's one of the strong arguments here. But the impact was not, in fact, inevitable. As, I think, MoLewisRocks mentioned, the size of the dead money is an issue we can discuss. See the analysis from Jason on the cap page. The Patriots tied up more cap in dead money than any single position. About four times the dead money as the Jets, almost double the Bills - $18mm.

Going from 90 to 53 - some amount of dead money is inevitable. Maybe $5-10mm is the benchmark. If the Patriots had been more successful with their offseason additions, they would have been closer to the benchmark, with an additional $8-10mm to spend on players.

What could they do with an additional $8-10mm? Maybe Kamerion Wimbley rather than Bobby Carpenter? Maybe Robert Meachum rather than Donte Stallworth? Jared Gaither, Demetrius Bell, or Evan Mathis rather than Gallery? Roll more over into 2013 to target a receiver or tackle or pay Welker?

Yes, we can go through each individual and say Belichick made the right decision, it just didn't pay off. But there have been enough cases of Adalius Thomas, Chad Ocho Cinco, Jonathan Fanene, Joey Galloway et al to discuss the Patriots veteran player acquisition approach more broadly than 'In Bill We Trust.'

Far and away the best coach in the NFL. Top QB, three great receiving options. But imagine if the veteran acquisitions had been just a little better the past three or four years. Could they have won one or two more games?

 

[woolster22]

Haven't we been clamoring for/witnessing the youth movement for a few years now? It finally seems relatively complete (ol/dl needs an infusion) and now you start belly belly aching? It's not like the guys remaining were given spots, they had to earn them.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ring 6]

Deion Branch
Jabar Gaffney
Jonathan Fanene
Spencer Larsen
Tony Flammatta
Bobby Carpenter
Donta Stallworth
Robert Gallery
Dan Koppen
Anthony Gonzalez
Will Allen
Joseph Addia
James Iheldigbo
Chad Johnson

I know every team cuts players but I look at this list of players. These are not UDFA or even younger NFL players that could have untapped ability. These guys are all veterans with plenty of tape and reports on them to show what they could do for us.

I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.

You missed a few. 90-53= 37
Why not complain about everyone that wasn't good enough to make the team but got a few meals out of BB?

 

[PlainOldEd]

So you think it was a good use of are time and resources? Can I ask why in your opinion?

I hate to play internet grammar police, but the word you are looking for here is "our". I would normally let it go, but it seemed to come up repeatedly and I thought you shoud be made aware.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

That's one of the strong arguments here. But the impact was not, in fact, inevitable. As, I think, MoLewisRocks mentioned, the size of the dead money is an issue we can discuss. See the analysis from Jason on the cap page. The Patriots tied up more cap in dead money than any single position. About four times the dead money as the Jets, almost double the Bills - $18mm.

Going from 90 to 53 - some amount of dead money is inevitable. Maybe $5-10mm is the benchmark. If the Patriots had been more successful with their offseason additions, they would have been closer to the benchmark, with an additional $8-10mm to spend on players.

What could they do with an additional $8-10mm? Maybe Kamerion Wimbley rather than Bobby Carpenter? Maybe Robert Meachum rather than Donte Stallworth? Jared Gaither, Demetrius Bell, or Evan Mathis rather than Gallery? Roll more over into 2013 to target a receiver or tackle or pay Welker?

Yes, we can go through each individual and say Belichick made the right decision, it just didn't pay off. But there have been enough cases of Adalius Thomas, Chad Ocho Cinco, Jonathan Fanene, Joey Galloway et al to discuss the Patriots veteran player acquisition approach more broadly than 'In Bill We Trust.'

Far and away the best coach in the NFL. Top QB, three great receiving options. But imagine if the veteran acquisitions had been just a little better the past three or four years. Could they have won one or two more games?

A big part of the problem is you are trying to prove something in isolation.

Life doesn't work that way. Cap management doesn't work that way. Building a roster doesn't work that way.

Your examples show that.

 

[Kontradiction]

The only two guys in that group that I would consider worthy of "an offseason misspent" are Branch and Gaffney. Even with Salas, the WR group still seems thin. He's a possession receiver as well and, as of right now, we only have one guy that can threaten every level of the field, including outside the numbers. Lloyd. I'm still optimistic that either Branch or Gaffney (or both) will be brought back, though. Everyone else either went through injury issues in camp or were nothing but camp fodder.

 

[BSR]

Draft Season Well Spent

Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Tavon Wilson
Jake Bequette
Nate Ebner
Alfonzo Dennard
Jeremy Francis
Marcus Forston
Brandon Bolden

I know every team gets 7 draft picks, but look at this list of rookies making a squad coming off a Super Bowl appearance. These are not JAG retreads or last-gasp veterans playing out their final season. These guys are young, smart, athletic, inexpensive players who beat out established vets, and there's no telling how much they could do for us.

I'm not an "in BB we trust" fan, but the amount of time and resources put into the draft by this regime does seem to be setting the team up well for the future.

To be honest, the above does worry me. I think its improbable that this organization suddenly became nearly perfect in finding talent through the draft or that the draft was so deep that so many undrafted free agents are able to beat out veterans for a roster spots. The OP does have a point, that at first glance it does seem that the veteran scouts seemed to have failed to brought in enough quality to fill the back end of the roster. With closer examination, as many have already done, we can see that many of these cuts were due to extenuating circumstances. But it still leaves us undrafted FA/rookies to man the back end of the roster when in the past the Patriots always had veteran depth. The question is whether that is out of choice or necessity...or as most likely, probably a little of both.

 

[Reckedtrek]

If Belichick was any good he would have just signed the final 53 back in April, cut everyone else the day after the draft and spent all of the preseason developing the 53 man roster and only the 53.

It's so easy! Why doesn't BB get this?!

:bricks:

"Hind site is always 20/20, but looking back it's still a bit fuzzy."

 

[patfanken]

That's one of the strong arguments here. But the impact was not, in fact, inevitable. As, I think, MoLewisRocks mentioned, the size of the dead money is an issue we can discuss. See the analysis from Jason on the cap page. The Patriots tied up more cap in dead money than any single position. About four times the dead money as the Jets, almost double the Bills - $18mm.

Going from 90 to 53 - some amount of dead money is inevitable. Maybe $5-10mm is the benchmark. If the Patriots had been more successful with their offseason additions, they would have been closer to the benchmark, with an additional $8-10mm to spend on players.

What could they do with an additional $8-10mm? Maybe Kamerion Wimbley rather than Bobby Carpenter? Maybe Robert Meachum rather than Donte Stallworth? Jared Gaither, Demetrius Bell, or Evan Mathis rather than Gallery? Roll more over into 2013 to target a receiver or tackle or pay Welker?

Yes, we can go through each individual and say Belichick made the right decision, it just didn't pay off. But there have been enough cases of Adalius Thomas, Chad Ocho Cinco, Jonathan Fanene, Joey Galloway et al to discuss the Patriots veteran player acquisition approach more broadly than 'In Bill We Trust.'

Far and away the best coach in the NFL. Top QB, three great receiving options. But imagine if the veteran acquisitions had been just a little better the past three or four years. Could they have won one or two more games?

Your points on the dead money are well made Urgent. I will disagree with the emphasis you put on it.

Dead money is the result of the cap consequences of the front loading of a contract that doesn't reach completion. TBC and Ty Warren are 2 examples of such deals. It usually means that the player didn't work out as well as we hoped long term. Some are disappointments when injuries or less than stellar play keep the player from reaching the end of his contract, like Ty Warren. Some are just flat out mistakes like TBC, who got way too much money for one 10 sack season.

But that's the beauty of BB'm management. He doesn't claim to be a superior personnel guy, but rather a superior manager of the draft. He just creates more draft picks than most teams gets knowing that, if he has them, he'll get his fair share of successes. The other thing you have to love about Bill is that he has no ego about his personnel decisions. He doesn't fall in love with guys....even the guys he loves. When a player no longer performs , he moves on. It doesn't matter if he looks bad in the process.

The same goes for FA. BB will go through the bargain bin like a housewife at a dress sale at Filene's Basement. He knows he won't hit them all, so the same year that give you Ocho and Haynesworth, will also give Waters, Anderson, and Carter. And BB understands you DON'T add up the score by saying this guy was good and this guy was bad. You add up the score by counting these were wins and these were losses

Another one ne of BB's great traits is selective amnesia. He make the decision on Chad or Fanenne, and boom, he's gone. Bill's moved on to the guys he still has to coach. He no longer cares about the money wasted on him, the time invested,. etc. He leaves that to the media and us to dwell on.....forever. He doesn't give it a second thought. Nor does he care if we want to dwell on it and label it HIS mistake. "Fine, its my mistake....moving on....." Hopefully learn from it and try not to do it again.

Its not a process one can reach perfection with. Lots of mistakes are made....by EVERY TEAM. And yet the improbable level of success he has given us shows how close he's come. Not even close to perfect, but just more perfect than everyone else.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

You're going to have cuts every year. Also, every year you bring in 'names', you're likely to be disappointed by some of them. If you want to look at his failures this offseason, I think we've got 3 main areas:

Brian Waters/OL
WR
Dead money

I think some, or all, of those are potentially valid areas to explore. I just think we should wait until after the re-signing period after week one or two. If Branch comes back after week one, for example, that changes the WR picture.

Agree with the yet TBD problem areas as being the known concern as of this date

Disagree with the OP contention
Several of the guys mentioned were known last gasp possibilities useless bad choice Fanene excepted. Why not see if they have another season? I include Branch as someone I still think was past his shelf date.

If BB's theme is to create competition to bring out the cream of the roster, those stiffs cut served to elevate the game of numerous young players with more stamina and unknown possibly higher upside as they develop. Using geezers to push the youngsters to develop and prove themselves under a competitive situation seems like a fine idea to me, especially if you luck out and a grey beard does have another season under his belt.

 

[Gumby]

That's one of the strong arguments here. But the impact was not, in fact, inevitable. As, I think, MoLewisRocks mentioned, the size of the dead money is an issue we can discuss. See the analysis from Jason on the cap page. The Patriots tied up more cap in dead money than any single position. About four times the dead money as the Jets, almost double the Bills - $18mm.

Going from 90 to 53 - some amount of dead money is inevitable. Maybe $5-10mm is the benchmark. If the Patriots had been more successful with their offseason additions, they would have been closer to the benchmark, with an additional $8-10mm to spend on players.

What could they do with an additional $8-10mm? Maybe Kamerion Wimbley rather than Bobby Carpenter? Maybe Robert Meachum rather than Donte Stallworth? Jared Gaither, Demetrius Bell, or Evan Mathis rather than Gallery? Roll more over into 2013 to target a receiver or tackle or pay Welker?

Yes, we can go through each individual and say Belichick made the right decision, it just didn't pay off. But there have been enough cases of Adalius Thomas, Chad Ocho Cinco, Jonathan Fanene, Joey Galloway et al to discuss the Patriots veteran player acquisition approach more broadly than 'In Bill We Trust.'

Far and away the best coach in the NFL. Top QB, three great receiving options. But imagine if the veteran acquisitions had been just a little better the past three or four years. Could they have won one or two more games?

Pats have more dead money than the jesters because the Pats cut their underperforming crap. The jesters have their underperforming crap walking around on the field in a green jersey.

(partially also because they can't afford to advance 3 years worth of cap mis-management into the current year if they do cut the dude)

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Your points on the dead money are well made Urgent. I will disagree with the emphasis you put on it.

Dead money is the result of the cap consequences of the front loading of a contract that doesn't reach completion. TBC and Ty Warren are 2 examples of such deals. It usually means that the player didn't work out as well as we hoped long term. Some are disappointments when injuries or less than stellar play keep the player from reaching the end of his contract, like Ty Warren. Some are just flat out mistakes like TBC, who got way too much money for one 10 sack season.

But that's the beauty of BB'm management. He doesn't claim to be a superior personnel guy, but rather a superior manager of the draft. He just creates more draft picks than most teams gets knowing that, if he has them, he'll get his fair share of successes. The other thing you have to love about Bill is that he has no ego about his personnel decisions. He doesn't fall in love with guys....even the guys he loves. When a player no longer performs , he moves on. It doesn't matter if he looks bad in the process.

The same goes for FA. BB will go through the bargain bin like a housewife at a dress sale at Filene's Basement. He knows he won't hit them all, so the same year that give you Ocho and Haynesworth, will also give Waters, Anderson, and Carter. And BB understands you DON'T add up the score by saying this guy was good and this guy was bad. You add up the score by counting these were wins and these were losses

Another one ne of BB's great traits is selective amnesia. He make the decision on Chad or Fanenne, and boom, he's gone. Bill's moved on to the guys he still has to coach. He no longer cares about the money wasted on him, the time invested,. etc. He leaves that to the media and us to dwell on.....forever. He doesn't give it a second thought. Nor does he care if we want to dwell on it and label it HIS mistake. "Fine, its my mistake....moving on....." Hopefully learn from it and try not to do it again.

Its not a process one can reach perfection with. Lots of mistakes are made....by EVERY TEAM. And yet the improbable level of success he has given us shows how close he's come. Not even close to perfect, but just more perfect than everyone else.

"Wars are won or lost before battle ever begins"- Sun Tzu

The reality is the difference between little dead money/ cap hell Jets and lots of dead money/ no cap hell Patriots is...............one team is in cap hell and one team isn't.

Look at Fanene. The whole system and process that doesn't put the Patriots in cap hell leaves resources available to target specific needs. Timely identification of the needs allowed for a signing of a player a reasonable, "don't break the bank" level that isn't threatening on the downside but decisive on the upside.

Worst case, nothing has changed on the roster and the system is intact.

Nothing can ever be done that doesn't entail risk. How you manage that risk is the key.

The real problem is when you are in a position where you CAN'T take that risk.

 

[jmt57]

What would you have done differently?

I would of brought made a move for a Salas earlier, I would of gave Rivera the snaps that were wasted on Carpenter earlier in the season...

To name a few.

Like I said I am a huge BB fan but it just seems like a lot of wasted money and reps.

So basically Belichick and the coaching staff should have known based on previous film on all players who would deserve to make the 53-man roster and who would not, and given those that made the cut extra reps.

If that type of knowledge is to be expected, then why bother with a training camp or preseason at all? The NFL can have 32 teams set their 53-man rosters May 1 and all those that will be playing in the fall get all the reps they can handle.


Isn't hindsight grand?

 

[mgteich]

OFF SEASON WELL-SPENT

1) Extended Hernadez, Gronkowaki and Love.

2) Signed Lloyd, Salas, Fells and Shiancoe (and Ballard).

2) Signed offensive backups at RB, WR, and TE, including a couple of TE's for later this year.

3) Signed Koppen to compete at center. This is a success story. Wendell was better.

4) Signed Scott, Gregory, Cole to help in the front seven, the secondary and ST's respectively..

5) And, yes, the draft resources were also well-spent.

6) A couple of plaers salted away on the PUP for possible late season help.

7) Some players salted away for 2013, e.g. Demps.

RESULT
A) The best active roster in the league (including coaches), or at worst second best.
B) Developmental inactive backups in McDonald, Forsten, Francis, Denard and Rivera.
C) $8M left in cap money for any in-season needs and a bit left to help cover the 2013 dead money.