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Off Season Misspent

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BBass, Sep 4, 2012.

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  1. BBass

    BBass Banned

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    Deion Branch
    Jabar Gaffney
    Jonathan Fanene
    Spencer Larsen
    Tony Flammatta
    Bobby Carpenter
    Donta Stallworth
    Robert Gallery
    Dan Koppen
    Anthony Gonzalez
    Will Allen
    Joseph Addia
    James Iheldigbo
    Chad Johnson

    I know every team cuts players but I look at this list of players. These are not UDFA or even younger NFL players that could have untapped ability. These guys are all veterans with plenty of tape and reports on them to show what they could do for us.

    I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.
  2. Elijah

    Elijah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I preface this by saying I consider myself one of the biggest pessimists on the board:

    Come back in 5 months and we'll see ;)
  3. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think it was a cause and effect thing due to the expansion of rosters to 90. Does seem like a waste of resources though. Lots of reps were invested in these guys that might have gone elsewhere. But Bill loves competition. And in some cases (like Branch) they didn't waste many reps and he will likely be back. And they didn't lose a nickel on Chad this season...beyond the cost of feeding him and his camp per diem.
  4. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    you're a year late on Chad Johnson

    and Koppen, Branch etc. were already on the roster so what do they have to do with it?

    I look at the rest (minus the WR position which I think has been kind of a failure) as veteran insurance for unknown young players. The fact that BB feels they are no longer needed speak well for our up and coming players imo.
  5. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    :confused:

    What's the big deal, you sign 90 players so you can pick the best 53.

    Some of those cut pushed others to show that they were better. The health of Gallery, Gonzales, and Addai was misjudged, but they were all gone quick.

    If more draft picks and UDFA's were cut and veterans kept, something tells me someone would be whining about that instead, saying our draft scouting was bad.

    It is what it is. Those left earned it.
  6. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A lot of these guys didn't cost the Pats anything and most of the rest cost the Pats very little. Only Chad Johnson and Jonathan Fanene really cost the Pats a lot of money and the Pats are trying to recoupe the money from Fanene. A lot of these guys were long shots to make the final 53 man roster the second they were signed.

    There are definitely a few misteps, but you are overstating it.
  7. BBass

    BBass Banned

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    I think the one that raised this question in my mind was the Salas move. I like the move but why didn't we make it earlier and not waste the money and reps we did. I really don't think the Rams were holding him with a ransom.

    And then today the Tennant cut what a waste of time and we could of used are waiver claim on someone else.
  8. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    There is no limit on waiver claims. Make all you want. You can even rescind a claim if you "win" too many
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  9. JackBauer

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    Yikes. I don't agree with anything in the OP and I'll leave it at that.
  10. BBass

    BBass Banned

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    We paid Koppen and Branch they were both FA. I understand the logic of veteran insurance but the it seems like we could of utilized the preseason reps a lot better to develop the actual team.
  11. Frezo

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    I wonder how BB is with credit cards.
  12. BBass

    BBass Banned

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    So you think it was a good use of are time and resources? Can I ask why in your opinion?
  13. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What would you have done differently?
  14. BBass

    BBass Banned

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    I think the big deal is money and reps. Like Salas why not make that move earlier so he is up and running week 1?
  15. xlcjw72

    xlcjw72 Rookie

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    I dont get it, some people are never happy. the list includes some guys who it wasnt bills fault they left like gallory. but you cant predict when a player is going to loose a step. and it wasnt a waist all those players were great camp motivators for the people who made the team
  16. BBass

    BBass Banned

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    I would of brought made a move for a Salas earlier, I would of gave Rivera the snaps that were wasted on Carpenter earlier in the season...

    To name a few.

    Like I said I am a huge BB fan but it just seems like a lot of wasted money and reps.
  17. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    Absolutely.

    The ones left are better for having out-competed the ones who are gone. Edelman had to focus on being a real WR. Mallet had to gain poise. Ridley, Vareen, Woodhead had to make better cuts and work more on pass protection. I could go on and on. They were pushed. Nothing bad about that.
  18. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    A few head scratchers which I don't pretend to understand. Still got a good core of players and for once a lot depth on the defensively line and secondary. I think we'll be alright as long as they stay healthy on the opine and at wr. Probably another Superbowl with a w this time. This Homer say release the kraken again.

    I hate kindle. Puts words into my posts that are speller wrong.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  19. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    Earlier, Salas was considered the favorite to win the Rams #3 receiver spot. He was beaten out by someone the new coaches decided, at the 11th hour, was a better fit. When he was a candidate to be an inactive player or even cut, he became available. That wasn't happening until that last cut was imminent.
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're going to have cuts every year. Also, every year you bring in 'names', you're likely to be disappointed by some of them. If you want to look at his failures this offseason, I think we've got 3 main areas:

    Brian Waters/OL
    WR
    Dead money

    I think some, or all, of those are potentially valid areas to explore. I just think we should wait until after the re-signing period after week one or two. If Branch comes back after week one, for example, that changes the WR picture.
  21. hovis

    hovis Rookie

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    BB took a bunch of fliers on some well-known has been's, never was's, and wannabe's. They were calculated risks, and none of them panned out. Alot've them seemed like good ideas at the time.

    But do you think they'd be better off with these guys on the roster?


    Gaffney's the only one confusing me....
  22. JackBauer

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    I think giving a bunch of marginal players an opportunity to make the roster isn't a big deal, either way.

    The book isn't finished on Branch or Gaffney
    The Fanene situation was a mistake, no doubt. Missed medical condition by the training staff? I'm still not sure what exactly happened there
    Spencer Larsen got injured. So what? What did we lose, exactly?
    Tony Fiammetta had a personal family issue. So we're indicting BB for not being Miss Cleo?
    Bobby Carpenter was a marginal player who didn't make it. So what? What did we lose, exactly?
    Ditto Stallworth
    Robert Gallery retired. Boo on BB for not predicting the future
    Dan Koppen is done. Again, I don't see the issue
    Anthony Gonzalez: see Carpenter and Stallworth
    Will Allen got injured
    Joseph Addai: see above
    James Ihedigbo: marginal ST player gets pushed off the roster. You're having a sad because we upgraded a position of chronic weakness last season?
    Chad Johnson: not sure why he's included on this list

    I think the above is simply reflective of the fact that we have a deep and talented roster this season. You're whining about this, why?
  23. Raymond

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    The rosters were at 90 men. It is inevitable to happen. BB is the type who leaves no stone unturned when he's looking for his roster. In his mind it is never really complete. Not even the night before the Super Bowl.

    There is some player unknown to you ( and me) that he may pick up six weeks from now. Should he have done this yesterday?
  24. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Carpenter had a workout with the Chiefs, FWIW.
  25. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Aka, be psychic enough to know that none of the WRs would work out as anticipated and that Rivera would beat out Carpenter?
  26. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This.

    I strongly disagree with the OP, which I think reflects a lack of understanding of how the Pats do business and run their organization. Obviously, none of us has a crystal ball into BB's thinking, but we've discussed some of what apparently drives the personnel and organizational moves:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...uncertainty-theory-how-pats-do-business.html

    I think a lot of the Pats offseason moves fall into the "uncertainty theory" model. Sign a lot of guys and hedge your bets. Keep your options open. Let guys compete, and assume that competition will build the strongest roster regardless of who is left standing at the end. None of the guys listed was signed with the expectation that he would be a foundational player, or even an obvious starter.

    Let's look at some of the positional shake out:

    - QB: Hoyer regressed, Mallett progressed, and the team moves on.
    - RB/FB: Addai was a stopgap option in case the youngsters didn't progress. He didn't pan out, and the young kids have looked good so far, including UDFA Bolden. I'm ok with that. I never really wanted Addai on the team, anyway. Neither Larsen nor Fiammetta was ever a lock to make the roster.
    - TE: Gronk's injury status was still unknown. He looks healthy, and he and AHern are now signed long term. It's too early to judge the Fells and Shiancoe signings.
    - WR: Branch, Ochocinco, Gaffney, Stallworth and Gonzalez were all brought in to compete, but none was considered a lock, and it was assumed that at most only 2 would make the team. Lloyd has looked good so far. The team hasn't necessarily burned bridges with Garffney or Branch at this point.
    - OL: Gallery was an insurance policy against Mankins not starting the season or Waters retiring. No one expected that he would decide his body can't take anymore. Koppen was never a lock, and if Wendell, McDonald and Thomas beat him out then it makes the roster stronger, younger and more versatile IMHO.
    - DL: Fanene was obviously a big disappointment, but Forston was apparently a nice surprise, and Brace as outperformed expectations.
    - DE/OLB: Scott made the team. Chandler Jones looks to be a huge addition.
    - LB: Dane Fletcher getting hurt was a bummer. No one would have predicted that Mike Rivera would have beaten out Bobby Carpenter, Jeff Tarpinian and Niko Koutouvides, but he did. Are you questioning BB's off-season moves, or his ultimate decision on who makes the roster?
    - DB: Same as with LB. Marquice Cole made the team. I'm not crying that Alfonzo Dennard and Nate Ebner beat out 33 year old Will Allen and journeyman James Ihedigbo.

    The Pats hedged their bets, and so far the youngsters appear to have outperformed many of the vets. We should be happy, not bemoaning a "lost opportunity" from the offseason. The purpose of the majority of the FA signings was to provide veteran depth, training camp competition, and above all security to not have to rely on rookies developing. Those signings appear to have met those goals, regardless of the ultimate roster outcome.
  27. Patstopia

    Patstopia Rookie

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    If BB had the hindsight that you have, I am sure he would do things differently. But since he doesn't, he has to have a competition to determine who he wants to keep. I would rather he sign 20 and keep 4 then sign 4 and keep them regardless of how they perform.
  28. fester

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    That logic only works if in April you know, or Belicheck knows that his two cheap veteran insurance policies at positions of uncertainty won't be needed or can't beat out the competition. (In my mind, these two things are logically equivalent but some people disagree. ) Koppen cost the Patriots 350K in signing bonus or .3% of their salary cap allocation for 2012. Actually, .15% of the salary cap as half the bonus is allocated to next year's cap. Branch had an even smaller signing bonus hit.

    These are cap cheap insurance policies.

    Now if your argument is that Koppen taking reps and a roster spot during training camp kept an UDFA or a 3rd year street FA from developing, that is plausible, but pretty weak. If Koppen was abducted by aliens, then the Patriots would have an extra spot to sign a player that they deemed not worth one of their 90 slots. Sure, there is uncertainty in evaluation, but the odds are greatly against that big of a surprise.

    Insurance was cheap in these cases, and I think it is a cost and pattern the Patriots are willing to engage in every year, and now more so than previously because of the expanded camp roster.
  29. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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    Matt Light - Retired
    Robert Gallery - Retired
    Will Allen - Injured Reserve
    Spencer Larsen - Injured Reserve
    Tony Fiammetta - Exempt (family/personal reasons)

    Official Website of the New England Patriots | Team - Players

    Jonathan Fanene is the only player I seriously question on your original list. If someone within the organization missed a medical issue, shame on them.
  30. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When did BB become clairvoyant? Seriously, how the hell is BB supposed to know that Fanene was going to hide chronic arthritis? How was BB supposed to know that Gaffney, Larseon and Allen were going to get injured? How was BB supposed to know that Fiametta was going to have a personal situation come up so dire that he needed to take a year off from football.

    The others, are you really complaining that veterans got beat out by younger players?? Think about that for a minute..
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