NFLN: Brady or Manning

[TyronePoole]

Uh, yeah it really isn't close, in the playoffs Brees is the best. I went to read this article to see what you meant and what it explained only to find that Brees stands head and shoulders above everyone else. Wow... I would not have guessed that.

I stand by what I said before, though, that if you take the top 10 qb's of all time and had them all be rookies again in the same year, each one of them could be the first pick depending on which team was doing the picking and what they were looking for and NO team would lose out no matter who they took.

As great as Brady and Peyton have been in their career, I still think Brees and Rodgers are the best QB's in the league right now. It doesn't really matter though. These arguments are so pointless.

Yeah Brees is obviously amazing and that article is pretty eye-popping in exposing that. One thing about Manning though is that his numbers are heavily weighed down by 2 games very early in his career one of which was particularly horrendous. Brees is also the benefactor of a somewhat smaller sample size. brady has actually trended the other way which is very odd.

One thing I think most people who go on and on about silly things like "choking" don't really understand is that massive role that variance plays in a one and done playoff format. Manning by all accounts has gotten extremely unlucky in the playoffs, I think I saw a stat that said he's the only QB ever to go 1-5 in games where his team turned the ball over 0 times. But everything has to be distilled into talk radio format and silly narratives, and of course homerism takes over to a large extent here too. The indoor v. outdoor nonsense has been similarly debunked.

 

[TyronePoole]

Peyton was supported by the NFL's top-rated defense in 2007. How did that help him?

Manning Colts had the top ranked defense in 2007. The Colts D ranked 1st overall in the NFL in points allowed and 3rd overall in yards allowed.

Manning vs. Brady in playoffs | The Big Lead

While that was a horrible game by the pass defense, it is not that atypical for Manning’s playoff career. Let’s compare him to Tom Brady, and here is a breakdown of various aspects and points added/lost by each phase since 2000 in playoff games (sorry, the loss to Tennessee in his first playoff game not included).

What does that show? Brady and the passing offense has been the primary driver of the Patriots’ playoff success, but the other phases have not hurt him in aggregate. Manning’s teams, on the other hand, have been worse in every phase, except for rushing defense, most notably in passing defense in the postseason. When both Manning and Brady are over 10.0 points added with passing offense, they are undefeated in the playoffs. (5-0 for Manning, 6-0 for Brady including yesterday). It’s what happens when they are not outstanding that has been the difference.

When the passing offense is merely above average (between 5 and 10 points), Manning is 1-5 in the postseason, with the one win coincidentally enough being the huge comeback against New England in the AFC Championship game that, temporarily, reversed the narratives. Brady is 3-1 when putting up similar performances, the one loss being last year’s Super Bowl.

 

[CelticPatriot]

Dave Dameshek thinks Rodgers will be "the best player of all time"

 

[Kontradiction]

Tom Brady Career Passing Touchdown Log - Pro-Football-Reference.com is your friend.

Of the 10 4th quarter touchdowns that Brady had, 4 came while the Patriots were trailing in the game. Only 3 came with leads of >14 points. He also threw 32 of his 50 touchdowns in the first half, and 40 out of 50 before the 4th quarter. If you take the median score differential at the time that Brady threw his touchdowns, it was +7 (and the mean was +7.32).

In short, you're mis-remembering what happened. The vast majority of Brady's were either in competitive games or came early in the game.



Which is actually evidence against the point that you're trying to make. The Pats scored 144 more points, but Brady only threw for one more touchdown, which clearly shows that he was handing the ball off more and letting the RBs score in the red zone. He could have thrown for 55 easily if he'd dominated the ball on scoring opportunities like Manning did.



See the above point. This just further demonstrates that he was performing more of his body of work outside of easy scoring opportunities, relative to Manning. It proves the opposite of what you're claiming, since it's nothing more than clear evidence that he was sustaining more drives and letting others score.



Brady came out of 6 games in 2007, so that's just factually wrong.

 

[stevedogc]

One thing about Manning though is that his numbers are heavily weighed down by 2 games very early in his career one of which was particularly horrendous

The same can be said in reverse. And that Mannings overall playoff stats are inflated by a few games in which he was outstanding. But what the overall numbers fail to show is the individual games in which he did stink in, that cost both he and the Colts the game and the season. If you look at Manning and Bradys overall playoff stats, they are pretty similar. 88.4 vs. 87.4 rating. Manning with the better number. If you break those down by individual games, you see that Manning has 3 games which his rating was below 40. Brady has none. You also see that there have been three games in which Manning failed to get teh Colts an offensive TD. Brady has had none. A team can not expect to win a playoff game or a superbowl if his most important player (being a QB adds to that magnitude) plays his worst game of the year (or career for matter). Be it Brady or Manning. Take a look at these overall playoff numbers of Brady and Mannings from the 2003 and 2004 playoffs.

Manning: 121 of 178 for 1614 yards, 13 tds 6 ints 106.8 rating
Brady: 130 of 207 for 1379 yards, 10 tds 2 ints 94.3 rating

Well by just looking at the total numbers one would think that Manning played better, had the better playoffs and that his team had more success. But when you break it down by individual games

Manning: '03 - 158.3, 138.7, 35.5 '04 - 145.7, 69.3 (colts scored 3 pts in this game)
Brady: '03 - 73.3, 76.1, 100.5 '04 - 92.2, 130.5, 110.2

So while Manning may have had the better overall stats, it pretty obvious the two poor games were the reason the Colts lost in those playoffs. In those two playoff years did Brady have some poor games? Obviously yes, but no nearly as bad as Manning. 73.3 is not far away from 69.3 But Brady managed to get his team in the endzone and did not turn the ball over, which Manning did. I guess my whole point is what good is having a 158.3 game in the first game of the playoffs, if you have a 35.5, 4 int game two games later.

 

[CelticPatriot]

Tom Brady Career Passing Touchdown Log - Pro-Football-Reference.com is your friend.

Of the 10 4th quarter touchdowns that Brady had, 4 came while the Patriots were trailing in the game. Only 3 came with leads of >14 points. He also threw 32 of his 50 touchdowns in the first half, and 40 out of 50 before the 4th quarter. If you take the median score differential at the time that Brady threw his touchdowns, it was +7 (and the mean was +7.32).

In short, you're mis-remembering what happened. The vast majority of Brady's were either in competitive games or came early in the game.



Which is actually evidence against the point that you're trying to make. The Pats scored 144 more points, but Brady only threw for one more touchdown, which clearly shows that he was handing the ball off more and letting the RBs score in the red zone. He could have thrown for 55 easily if he'd dominated the ball on scoring opportunities like Manning did.



See the above point. This just further demonstrates that he was performing more of his body of work outside of easy scoring opportunities, relative to Manning. It proves the opposite of what you're claiming, since it's nothing more than clear evidence that he was sustaining more drives and letting others score.



Brady came out of 6 games in 2007, so that's just factually wrong.

Manning has also been throwing TD's when not needing to this year just to chase the record. (I remember one game where he was 1st and Goal from the 1 and threw a Pass TD when all he had to do was hand it off)

 

[Archeryaddict12]

NFLN:Brady or Manning

Manning has also been throwing TD's when not needing to this year just to chase the record. (I remember one game where he was 1st and Goal from the 1 and threw a Pass TD when all he had to do was hand it off)

But he is also now officially behind Brady's TD pace I believe.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Manning Colts had the top ranked defense in 2007. The Colts D ranked 1st overall in the NFL in points allowed and 3rd overall in yards allowed.

So what? What exactly is the point? I believe the Colts went 13-3 in the regular season, and then the defense shat the bed in the playoffs, pretty much. That's where it counted.

Thats factually wrong. Brady did in fact come out of games in 2007, several of them in fact.

Far less than Manning all told.

And the Pats did let of the gas in several games as well.

Week 1 vs. Jets. 6 passing plays in 4th qtr, 15 rushing plays
Week 2 vs. Chargers. 6 passing plays in 4th, 13 rushing plays
week 3 vs. Bills. no passing attempts by Pats in last 10 minutes of game
week 8 vs. Redskins. Brady played 1 series in 4th qtr.
Week 11 vs. Bills. Brady did not play in 4th qtr.

LOL. You call playing Brady in "only" 1 series in the 4th quarter letting up on the gas in the Redskins game? The drive lasted nearly half the quarter, and the Patriots were up 38-0 even before Brady threw the pass that made it 45-0 after that drive...this is your example of "letting up?"

Also, Brady DID play in the 4th quarter against the Bills in week 11. He threw a 45-yard TD bomb to Randy Moss when the game was in hand...THEN he didn't come back.

And all things are not equal between Mannings 2004 and Bradys 2007 season. If they were, then an opinion of "Manning would have had the TD record if" would be valid. But things were not equal. Different players, different teams, different schedules, etc.

That's why there is an argument here.

It's Brady's record. It's in the books, and I don't try to take that away from him. Let me make that clear.

 

[Deus Irae]

So what? What exactly is the point? I believe the Colts went 13-3 in the regular season, and then the defense shat the bed in the playoffs, pretty much. That's where it counted.



Far less than Manning all told.




LOL. You call playing Brady in "only" 1 series in the 4th quarter letting up on the gas in the Redskins game? The drive lasted nearly half the quarter, and the Patriots were up 38-0 even before Brady threw the pass that made it 45-0 after that drive...this is your example of "letting up?"

Also, Brady DID play in the 4th quarter against the Bills in week 11. He threw a 45-yard TD bomb to Randy Moss when the game was in hand...THEN he didn't come back.



That's why there is an argument here.

As usual, when you troll, you troll badly. Manning's INTs are what killed them in that 2007 loss.

 

[TyronePoole]

The same can be said in reverse. And that Mannings overall playoff stats are inflated by a few games in which he was outstanding.

first of all, no, it can't. If you want to use lol QB Rating then at least do it honestly in terms of standard deviations. Manning has been remarkably consistent. Did you even read the article I posted? I'm not gonna calculate it for you right now, but Brady and Manning have 10 and 8 games above 90 QB rating and 14 and 13 above 80 respectively. That seems like a pretty even distribution to me especially considering Brady has been in 4 more playoff games.

But what the overall numbers fail to show is the individual games in which he did stink in, that cost both he and the Colts the game and the season. If you look at Manning and Bradys overall playoff stats, they are pretty similar. 88.4 vs. 87.4 rating. Manning with the better number. If you break those down by individual games, you see that Manning has 3 games which his rating was below 40. Brady has none. You also see that there have been three games in which Manning failed to get teh Colts an offensive TD. Brady has had none. A team can not expect to win a playoff game or a superbowl if his most important player (being a QB adds to that magnitude) plays his worst game of the year (or career for matter). Be it Brady or Manning. Take a look at these overall playoff numbers of Brady and Mannings from the 2003 and 2004 playoffs.

Manning: 121 of 178 for 1614 yards, 13 tds 6 ints 106.8 rating
Brady: 130 of 207 for 1379 yards, 10 tds 2 ints 94.3 rating

Well by just looking at the total numbers one would think that Manning played better, had the better playoffs and that his team had more success. But when you break it down by individual games

Manning: '03 - 158.3, 138.7, 35.5 '04 - 145.7, 69.3 (colts scored 3 pts in this game)
Brady: '03 - 73.3, 76.1, 100.5 '04 - 92.2, 130.5, 110.2

So while Manning may have had the better overall stats, it pretty obvious the two poor games were the reason the Colts lost in those playoffs. In those two playoff years did Brady have some poor games? Obviously yes, but no nearly as bad as Manning. 73.3 is not far away from 69.3 But Brady managed to get his team in the endzone and did not turn the ball over, which Manning did. I guess my whole point is what good is having a 158.3 game in the first game of the playoffs, if you have a 35.5, 4 int game two games later.

What you are doing here is lying with statistics by making a case with arbitrary cut off lines and cherry picking data. You also contradict yourself mightily. For Manning to have 3 clunkers and still be above Brady in overall QB rating tells a totally different story. Also, one of those games was against the Pats 2003 defense whom brady has obviously never had to face. Brady quite simply wasn't asked to do even half as much as Manning was that early in his career, the fact that he only has 2 more "bad" games by your distinction both of which were prior to 2003 is pretty amazing actually considering how differently the teams were constructed. his last clunker was in away against the 2006 Baltimore defense.

 

[stevedogc]

So what? What exactly is the point? I believe the Colts went 13-3 in the regular season, and then the defense shat the bed in the playoffs, pretty much. That's where it counted. .

You asked when Manninghad a #1 defense. Well, he did in 2007. Thats all I am saying. If you want to point out how poorly they played in the playoffs, then fine. But then you can also point out how great they played in the 2006 playoff run. Which resulted in a SB victory for the Colts.

Far less than Manning all told. .

You are correct, less then Manning. But you claimed Brady never came out of a game in 2007. Thats not correct.

LOL. You call playing Brady in "only" 1 series in the 4th quarter letting up on the gas in the Redskins game? The drive lasted nearly half the quarter, and the Patriots were up 38-0 even before Brady threw the pass that made it 45-0 after that drive...this is your example of "letting up?"

Also, Brady DID play in the 4th quarter against the Bills in week 11. He threw a 45-yard TD bomb to Randy Moss when the game was in hand...THEN he didn't come back. .

The 45 yard TD pass to Moss was during the week 3 game vs. Buffalo. Not the week 11 game. In Which Brady never played in the 4th. And again, you said The Pats never took their foot off the gas. Not my words, yours. So when you have several examples of a team running out the clock by rushing the ball 3 to 1 against the pass and taking out the starting QB, yes, I call that letting you foot off the gas.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Tom Brady Career Passing Touchdown Log - Pro-Football-Reference.com is your friend.

Of the 10 4th quarter touchdowns that Brady had, 4 came while the Patriots were trailing in the game. Only 3 came with leads of >14 points. He also threw 32 of his 50 touchdowns in the first half, and 40 out of 50 before the 4th quarter. If you take the median score differential at the time that Brady threw his touchdowns, it was +7 (and the mean was +7.32).

In short, you're mis-remembering what happened. The vast majority of Brady's were either in competitive games or came early in the game.

Actually, I was just correcting the guy that said Manning had more 4th quarter TDs than Brady. That's wrong. Congratulations on "remembering" it right, or, better put, looking at the stat sheet.

That site is my friend, too. If you extend the same courtesy to Peyton Manning, you'll see that 5 of his 4th quarter TDs were thrown when the Colts were behind in the game, 1 was thrown when the score was tied, and only ONE was thrown when the Colts were even ahead.

Which is actually evidence against the point that you're trying to make. The Pats scored 144 more points, but Brady only threw for one more touchdown, which clearly shows that he was handing the ball off more and letting the RBs score in the red zone. He could have thrown for 55 easily if he'd dominated the ball on scoring opportunities like Manning did.

That's funny, because what that tells ME is that Brady had more help outside of the passing game.

See the above point. This just further demonstrates that he was performing more of his body of work outside of easy scoring opportunities, relative to Manning. It proves the opposite of what you're claiming, since it's nothing more than clear evidence that he was sustaining more drives and letting others score.

YOU see the above point.

Let us not forget that the Patriots were the 4th ranked defense in both points allowed AND yards allowed.

Meanwhile, the Colts were ranked 29th in yards allowed (which means field position) and 19th in points allowed.

It's a team sport, and a worse defense hinders the offense more, wouldn't you say?

Brady came out of 6 games in 2007, so that's just factually wrong.

"Factually" wrong...please do not include series of kneel-downs as "coming out of a game." Perhaps I overstated this aspect, but Brady only came out a couple of times with any real time left on the clock. Other than that, the game was over and nobody was even trying anymore. Manning missed a whole game, came out in the 3rd quarter, and missed most of the 4th quarter a couple of times.

 

[stevedogc]

first of all, no, it can't. If you want to use lol QB Rating then at least do it honestly in terms of standard deviations. Manning has been remarkably consistent. Did you even read the article I posted? I'm not gonna calculate it for you right now, but Brady and Manning have 10 and 8 games above 90 QB rating and 14 and 13 above 80 respectively. That seems like a pretty even distribution to me especially considering Brady has been in 4 more playoff games.



What you are doing here is lying with statistics by making a case with arbitrary cut off lines and cherry picking data. You also contradict yourself mightily. For Manning to have 3 clunkers and still be above Brady in overall QB rating tells a totally different story. Also, one of those games was against the Pats 2003 defense whom brady has obviously never had to face. Brady quite simply wasn't asked to do even half as much as Manning was that early in his career, the fact that he only has 2 more "bad" games by your distinction both of which were prior to 2003 is pretty amazing actually considering how differently the teams were constructed. his last clunker was in away against the 2006 Baltimore defense.

How am i cherry picking stats? Weren't you the one who said Mannings stats are weighed down by 2 bad games? Here certainly has had more then two bad games in the playoffs. My whole argument requires you to look at individual games rather then the stats as a whole. If you want to call that cherry picking, fine. But how does that make my point any less valid. MAnning has nad great games in the playoffs, but they dont matter to much when he puts up a stinker later on in said playoffs.

And spare me with the "Manning had to play the 2003 Pats defense". Are you saying Brady never had to play against a great defense. Look at the 04 playoffs. Played Pitt at Pitt and Philly in the SB. Both were top ranked defenses and Brady didnt throw 4 picks or manage only 3 points.

And Brady may never had to be "asked" to do half as much as Manning early in his career, but when they did need Brady to do more, he did. In his first ever playoff game vs. the Raiders, he brought the Pats back from a double digit 4th qtr deficit. Something Manning has never done in his playoff career. How about the GW drive in the SB vs. the Rams. Manning had a chance to do that vs. the Saints and threw a pick 6 to all but end the game. Then you have the 18 point 4th qtr he put up against the Panthers in SB 38. If Brady was not able to do that I am all but certain the Pats would not have won that game consider the 19 4th points the Pats defense gave up in that game.

 

[Uncle Meat]

You asked when Manninghad a #1 defense. Well, he did in 2007. Thats all I am saying. If you want to point out how poorly they played in the playoffs, then fine. But then you can also point out how great they played in the 2006 playoff run. Which resulted in a SB victory for the Colts.

You brought it up in the first place, and it's irrelevant to the discussion.

I agree that the Colts don't win that Super Bowl without the defense stepping up in the playoffs. Anybody that knows his ass from a hole in the ground can see that. The Pats defense sure helped in those Super Bowl wins too, which goes to prove the obvious point that football is a team game...the ultimate team game, in fact...although, QB is still the most important position in all sports. You can't consistently win these days without quality QB play. It's a QB-driven league, and that is not just a cliche.

Ironically, Tom Brady has been a MUCH better quarterback AFTER those Super Bowl wins, I think. He's the main player that makes them a perennial contender though, obviously.

Look, I don't want to make it seem like I'm putting down Brady at all. The guy is awesome and is as good as anybody. He's having a bad time this year though, despite the record, and his wife makes him get the most ridiculous haircuts sometimes.

You are correct, less then Manning. But you claimed Brady never came out of a game in 2007. Thats not correct.
The 45 yard TD pass to Moss was during the week 3 game vs. Buffalo. Not the week 11 game. In Which Brady never played in the 4th. And again, you said The Pats never took their foot off the gas. Not my words, yours. So when you have several examples of a team running out the clock by rushing the ball 3 to 1 against the pass and taking out the starting QB, yes, I call that letting you foot off the gas.

I stand corrected about a couple of things here, but the Patriots were still trying to score more than they had to IMO, even when they were running the ball. The main point still remains despite quips about details.

 

[ausbacker]

You brought it up in the first place, and it's irrelevant to the discussion.

I agree that the Colts don't win that Super Bowl without the defense stepping up in the playoffs. Anybody that knows his ass from a hole in the ground can see that. The Pats defense sure helped in those Super Bowl wins too, which goes to prove the obvious point that football is a team game...the ultimate team game, in fact...although, QB is still the most important position in all sports. You can't consistently win these days without quality QB play. It's a QB-driven league, and that is not just a cliche.

Ironically, Tom Brady has been a MUCH better quarterback AFTER those Super Bowl wins, I think. He's the main player that makes them a perennial contender though, obviously.

Look, I don't want to make it seem like I'm putting down Brady at all. The guy is awesome and is as good as anybody. He's having a bad time this year though, despite the record, and his wife makes him get the most ridiculous haircuts sometimes.



I stand corrected about a couple of things here, but the Patriots were still trying to score more than they had to IMO, even when they were running the ball. The main point still remains despite quips about details.

Would you mind explaining to me why an offense in the NFL should stop trying to score? It's the job of the offense to score a touchdown on every series they have. It's the job of the opposing defense to ensure that doesn't happen.

What a peculiar position.

 

[upstater1]

Actually, I was just correcting the guy that said Manning had more 4th quarter TDs than Brady. That's wrong. Congratulations on "remembering" it right, or, better put, looking at the stat sheet.

Brady threw his 50th TD in less time played than Manning threw his 49th.

Manning stayed in games longer the year he threw 49. He played more.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Brady threw his 50th TD in less time played than Manning threw his 49th.

Manning stayed in games longer the year he threw 49. He played more.

Manning played less or at least sat out more, and he attempted fewer passes.

Manning threw his 49th TD pass in 15 games...didn't even play the 16th game except to get the official start on his sheet.

Brady threw his 48th TD pass in 15 games, and threw 2 his final game.

Dunno where you got what you got, but it's not true.

Also, I don't have the time, energy, nor inclination to delve into the barrage of nitpicking replies that are no doubt soon to follow, many of which could just refer to what I've already said.

I'm not going to sit here for hours and days defending my position...just sayin'.

 

[upstater1]

Manning played less or at least sat out more, and he attempted fewer passes.

Manning threw his 49th TD pass in 15 games...didn't even play the 16th game except to get the official start on his sheet.

Brady threw his 48th TD pass in 15 games, and threw 2 his final game.

Dunno where you got what you got, but it's not true.

Also, I don't have the time, energy, nor inclination to delve into the barrage of nitpicking replies that are no doubt soon to follow, many of which could just refer to what I've already said.

I'm not going to sit here for hours and days defending my position...just sayin'.

It is true.

This board has been through this before.

You're wrong on this.

After the 2007 season, a poster on this board showed that Brady sat/was pulled for more minutes than Manning even with Manning sitting out an entire game. All he did was subtract the minutes after Brady was pulled from the total possible minutes he could play (16 games x 60 minutes), and it turned out that Brady threw his 50th TD in fewer minutes than Manning threw his 49th. The minutes between the 2 QBs were very close. Brady actually passed Manning for minutes in the middle of the 4th qtr. of the Giants game.

 

[Uncle Meat]

It is true.

This board has been through this before.

You're wrong on this.

After the 2007 season, a poster on this board showed that Brady sat/was pulled for more minutes than Manning even with Manning sitting out an entire game. All he did was subtract the minutes after Brady was pulled from the total possible minutes he could play (16 games x 60 minutes), and it turned out that Brady threw his 50th TD in fewer minutes than Manning threw his 49th. The minutes between the 2 QBs were very close. Brady actually passed Manning for minutes in the middle of the 4th qtr. of the Giants game.

Who was this champion that had the time to do this...show me.

Also, I looked into it far enough. Maybe 4 times, Brady basically sat out during time where everyone was waiting for the game to be over...maybe a series of nothing a few times and some kneel-downs with what's-his-face in there at QB. Manning never did that...he either copped out earlier in the fourth (or late in the third), or he was the guy playing it out, running the clock out, kneeling down and such...going through the motions. How are we equating kneel-downs in this whole thing?

Even if you wanted to argue any of this, it doesn't matter anyway since Manning didn't play an entire game. He missed the first, second, and third quarters, which are generally the time where either team actually tried or had to score points. The Colts didn't even care about the final game.

If Manning was in the game for more meaningless garbage time than Brady, what does that prove?

Maybe your friend can spend a month sifting through what time meant what and write a book.

 

[Uncle Rico]

Good ole' NFLN and NFL.com. Today's lead photo is of Peyton Manning with the headline:

Getting back on the horse
Will Peyton Manning return to form against the Redskins?

Um, well, if he doesn't, that's kind of the bigger story, isn't it? Guess they're setting up the big "Peyton Bounces Back" story for Monday.