My knock on Maroney and the offense

[DW Toys]

Again, DW Toys, judging players by single plays is the height of stupidity.


DVOA judges players by how they do as compared to average against other players in the same situation. Maroney's situational stats are phenominal. Hes the best back on the roster, and by a huge margin, he just can't stay healthy.


For some reason, despite all the facts stating otherwise, you've decided hes worse than BJGE, who is camp fodder, and just wont give it up. Absolutely nothing you have said in here is rational, or coherent. You hate the guy. Its got nothing to do with how he plays football.

No I don't. I like the kid. I have never said BJGE.
He has just been frustrating. Would I take Moreno or the like instead? Probably.
Just one mans opinion. I have never said I did not like the kid. He is just not a first round value.
Please do not throw stats at me. I will throw them back. Do you think BB gives a darn about stats? You are right. It's how he plays.
DW Toys

 

[eom]

throw them back.

you asked for downs, distance, time of day, surface, opponent, etc, and I gave it all to you --- evaluate that.
I call it a great game -- what do you call it?

 

[Deus Irae]

No I don't. I like the kid. I have never said BJGE.
He has just been frustrating. Would I take Moreno or the like instead? Probably.
Just one mans opinion. I have never said I did not like the kid. He is just not a first round value.
Please do not throw stats at me. I will throw them back. Do you think BB gives a darn about stats? You are right. It's how he plays.
DW Toys

Wait, are you seriously going to claim that Belichick doesn't care about the stats?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Wait, are you seriously going to claim that Belichick doesn't care about the stats?

Heh, no kidding. Example:

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?

Or there's Rutgers statistics professor Harold Sackrowitz, who got a call from Adams a few years back. Adams wanted to talk about some research Sackrowitz had just completed, dealing with how teams try two-point conversions far too often. Adams sent the professor the Patriots' when-to-go-for-two chart, and asked Sackrowitz to tear it apart. Of the 32 NFL teams, the statistician told the New York Times, only the Patriots called.

There are lots of examples that can be cited that would suggest that the Pats care more about statistics than any other team in the league, and it isn't even close.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

If Maroney is traded on draft day, I will be extremely disappointed. In fact, this will say to me that the Pats are admitting their 2006 draft was a failure. I don't think the Pats are ready to do that.

I would be shocked. Not that it isn't possible but Maroney would only be traded for a strong overpay on value. Who would do that for him? The trade Maroney thought is strict fanboy wanking. We've proven that we need lots of RBs to make it thru the season. Why trade Maroney, again unless somebody virtually loses their mind?

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

 

[Frezo]

Heh, no kidding. Example:

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?

There are lots of examples that can be cited that would suggest that the Pats care more about statistics than any other team in the league, and it isn't even close.

I love that article. Every fan should read it. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[alvinnf]

Maroney isn't a boom and bust back, hes a consistent back with occasional Booms. Hes just made of glass.

How does he stack up with negetive plays. Maroney seems to get caught for 0 to negetive yardage more than anyone else on the roster.

 

[BradyFTW!]

How does he stack up with negetive plays. Maroney seems to get caught for 0 to negetive yardage more than anyone else on the roster.

About 10% of his rushes in 2007 were for a loss. Not sure how that stacks up to Morris or Faulk, but it's slightly more often than Taylor in the same season. Not that that's a good number, but overall I think that it's pretty exaggerated on this board.

Went onto NFL.com a few weeks back and put every carry that Maroney had in 2007 into a spreadsheet; that was one of the more interesting numbers to come out of it, since I honestly expected that it would be higher.

 

[alvinnf]

Except, its not. In short yardage, Maroney gets the yards needed more often. Thats what success rate tells you. Maroney is BETTER in short yardage situations. He gets the first down 58% of the time, while Morris only gets it 45% of the time.


Maroney isn't a boom and bust back, hes a consistent back with occasional Booms. Hes just made of glass.

It's unfortunate that this is not true. If you look at 2007 on Football outsiders, Maroney is a Top 7 back in DVOA and DVAR, which is great. If you look at 2008 and 2006 you will find a completely different story. 06' he's about seven guys behind C.Dillon and in 08' his numbers are awful to put it kindly. So if you want to make statistical analysis to evalatuate Maroney you either have to decide whether or not he was the product of a prolific offense or the victim of injury. Either way the glass is half full with him.
Hopefully he'll be healthy and the offense will be prolific.

 

[DW Toys]

Wait, are you seriously going to claim that Belichick doesn't care about the stats?

Yep, I seriously consider BB visually looking at the player and choosing him for his eyeball performance, not his paper performance. Yes sir I certainly do.
Not even close.
O.K., Now I will end this conversation on a high note. If BB drafted a QB in the 6th round in 2000 on stats, a certain Quarterback would not be drafted by the Pats...We done now about stats?
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

It's unfortunate that this is not true. If you look at 2007 on Football outsiders, Maroney is a Top 7 back in DVOA and DVAR, which is great. If you look at 2008 and 2006 you will find a completely different story. 06' he's about seven guys behind C.Dillon and in 08' his numbers are awful to put it kindly. So if you want to make statistical analysis to evalatuate Maroney you either have to decide whether or not he was the product of a prolific offense or the victim of injury. Either way the glass is half full with him.
Hopefully he'll be healthy and the offense will be prolific.

A fair statement.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Heh, no kidding. Example:

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?



There are lots of examples that can be cited that would suggest that the Pats care more about statistics than any other team in the league, and it isn't even close.

I totally agree but players stats and game situation stats are apples and oranges. No, I do not buy it.
DW Toys

 

[BradyFTW!]

It's unfortunate that this is not true. If you look at 2007 on Football outsiders, Maroney is a Top 7 back in DVOA and DVAR, which is great. If you look at 2008 and 2006 you will find a completely different story. 06' he's about seven guys behind C.Dillon and in 08' his numbers are awful to put it kindly. So if you want to make statistical analysis to evalatuate Maroney you either have to decide whether or not he was the product of a prolific offense or the victim of injury. Either way the glass is half full with him.
Hopefully he'll be healthy and the offense will be prolific.

2008 he played in a couple of games, with a tiny sample size, while injured. Not putting much stock in those results.

 

[eom]

why do you put dw toys at the bottom of all your posts?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yep, I seriously consider BB visually looking at the player and choosing him for his eyeball performance, not his paper performance. Yes sir I certainly do.
Not even close.
O.K., Now I will end this conversation on a high note. If BB drafted a QB in the 6th round in 2000 on stats, a certain Quarterback would not be drafted by the Pats...We done now about stats?
DW Toys

You sure? Brady actually had good college stats- 63% completion, 35 TDs, 19 INTs. The whole reason why he fell as far as he did was that scouts, based on his 'eyeball performance', as you put it, decided that he was a sub-NFL talent. He's actually a poster child for how flawed trusting your eyeballs can really be.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I totally agree but players stats and game situation stats are apples and oranges. No, I do not buy it.
DW Toys

DVOA and success rate are also game situation stats, and Maroney's is awesome. There you go.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yep, I seriously consider BB visually looking at the player and choosing him for his eyeball performance, not his paper performance. Yes sir I certainly do.
Not even close.
O.K., Now I will end this conversation on a high note. If BB drafted a QB in the 6th round in 2000 on stats, a certain Quarterback would not be drafted by the Pats...We done now about stats?
DW Toys

Wow. You don't see the ridiculousness of making this claim given your position on Sanders?

It's amazing what blindnesses people allow themselves.

 

[ICSB]

I have read Maroney is made of glass on this forum.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's unfortunate that this is not true. If you look at 2007 on Football outsiders, Maroney is a Top 7 back in DVOA and DVAR, which is great. If you look at 2008 and 2006 you will find a completely different story. 06' he's about seven guys behind C.Dillon and in 08' his numbers are awful to put it kindly. So if you want to make statistical analysis to evalatuate Maroney you either have to decide whether or not he was the product of a prolific offense or the victim of injury. Either way the glass is half full with him.
Hopefully he'll be healthy and the offense will be prolific.

This is a misleading post, as you must certainly know. In 2006, Maroney was a rookie, and was being groomed behind Dillon. Not surprisingly, his numbers weren't quite as good as a player that may one day be in the Hall Of Fame, yet his success rate was still in the upper half (#19 of 47) of all running backs that qualified. You also seem to have missed his numbers as a rookie receiving rb, where his DVOA was #7 of those 49 in the league who qualified.

Then tossing in his 2008 numbers when he was hurt (went to IR) and the line was terrible to start the season with a new quarterback, well, that's just an obviously biased way to skew the data.

Heck, go compare Maroney's rookie numbers with those of LdT in terms of DVOA rank, success rate, etc....

 

[Synovia]

It's unfortunate that this is not true. If you look at 2007 on Football outsiders, Maroney is a Top 7 back in DVOA and DVAR, which is great. If you look at 2008 and 2006 you will find a completely different story. 06' he's about seven guys behind C.Dillon and in 08' his numbers are awful to put it kindly. So if you want to make statistical analysis to evalatuate Maroney you either have to decide whether or not he was the product of a prolific offense or the victim of injury. Either way the glass is half full with him.
Hopefully he'll be healthy and the offense will be prolific.

In 2008, Maroney played for about 12 minutes. In 2006, Lawrence Maroney had a success rate of 46%....good for.. better than Sammy Morris has ever had.