Mayock: Solder has ‘tremendously high ceiling’

[BaltimorePatsFan]

Vollmer, on the other hand, wasn't starting. He got the job due to injury.

So did Nick Kaczur. He started at left tackle only because Matt Light was hurt.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

How about the strength issue? If I was an opposing D I would put my nose tackle on him and drive him right into the QB.

Solder looks like the Stay Puff Man:

 

[ay-yo]

To rehash, I think Light won't be back, because I think he'll make less money and be in more risk of getting cut on the Pats than on his best alternative option. And by "less money" and "more risk" I mean more than a small difference. It's a much better business decision for Light to take a relatively secure LT job with another team that it is for him to stay with the Patriots.

The Patriots obviously don't believe Light will play OT for them much longer, because they believe Vollmer and Solder will. And while the Patriots clearly know that what they believe might not work out that way, they also have a consistent track record of successfully playing first-round picks. By way of contrast, Light could surely find a few other teams where he can go and be the obvious front-runner for the LT job.

As for Light moving to guard -- that pays less than tackle, and there's no assurance he'd be even as good at the position as he is at tackle, let alone better. There's even no assurance that either Light or Mankins can do a good job moving to the right side.

Guards also inherently have less job security than tackles, because it costs less to draft guys who might challenge them for the job.

I agree with all this. Light could easily get a 3 year deal paying him starting LT money. If he stays in NE he would never stay on the roster making such money in years 2 and 3 with a much cheaper Solder ready to go. Much better business decision for Light to leave the Pats. Now if he loved the team so much he'd take a significant discount I'm sure we'd be more than happy to oblige him but I wouldn't hold my breathe.

 

[ay-yo]

How about the strength issue? If I was an opposing D I would put my nose tackle on him and drive him right into the QB.

For all the strength concerns dude only gave up 5 sacks his entire career. He'll normally be facing someone weighing less than him and it's not like LT's don't receive help on many passing plays.

As for your idea of putting a NT over him I think it'd be pretty easy to just slam it up the middle with Ridley behind Cannon and Volmer and take you out of that defense in 1 drive.

 

[patfanken]

As for Light moving to guard -- that pays less than tackle, and there's no assurance he'd be even as good at the position as he is at tackle, let alone better. There's even no assurance that either Light or Mankins can do a good job moving to the right side.

Guards also inherently have less job security than tackles, because it costs less to draft guys who might challenge them for the job.

I disagree with the point above. There is probably no EASIER projection for a coach to make than the one moving from OT to OG. If you thought Light was a good run blocker, he'd be the same good run blocker as a G. If you thought he was excellent in pulling on bubble screens, etc, then he'd be just as good pulling from the G position. If you thought he was a good pass blocker with a weakness with certain speed rushers, then he'd be even BETTER as an OG, who rarely has to deal with that issue.

There is a VERY good chance that Light would be an EXCELLENT OG and he'd be paid a very handsome wage to be one for the Pats. Certainly enough that what he might have made elsewhere for a year or two, would be covered by what ending his career as a Patriot would do for his outside income going forward.

There are a lot of risks going forward for a 33 year old guy like Light even if he could get a better contract INITIALLY with another team. That team would ALWAYS be looking to get younger, different systems and coaches could be detrimental to someone who spent his entire career with one coach, and one system. It might not be an exact apple to apples example, but look at what happened to McNabb when he left the Eagle's nest. Its not easy going from one system to another. Staying with the Pats, even at a discount, might be the best long term move for Light.

That being said, this scenario is NOT likely, especially if the Pats decide to keep Mankins. However if Mankins goes, THEN I think it becomes a LOCK.

 

[Rob0729]

Fact of the matter is that Solder probably won't contribute right away, but at this point what rookie will? This is going to be a red shirt year or developmental year for most of the rookies across the league.

Even the most optimistic predictions (not made by Bill Burt) of when this lockout end, has the lockout running for at least another 2-4 weeks. That means many rookies won't get their playbooks even until July (although I bet most of them got their playbooks even if they weren't supposed to). Rookie camps will be conducted in training camp where they should already have gotten those basics down before the start of training camp. Veterans might play more during the preseason because many of them will have to play themselves into shape and they have also lost valuable time learning the plays with lost minicamps and OTAs.

Personally, I think Belichick approached the draft knowing that whoever he drafted no matter how good might not be productive in the 2011 season. I think he drafted guys like Solder and Cannon knowing that the 2011 season is probably going to be a loss for rookies anyway and that these type of players could turn into absolute studs and moreso than more NFL ready players who many people would take over them.

 

[Joker]

while I agree I must add, wouldn't anybody 6'9" have a tremendously high ceiling..? I mean, you'd be constantly banging your head going room to room in a house with normal ceiling height...what am I missing here???..:idontgetit:

 

[BlueThunder]

JO would be able to look Nate straight in the eyes

 

[VJCPatriot]

How about the strength issue? If I was an opposing D I would put my nose tackle on him and drive him right into the QB.

Sure play your NT out of position and watch New England exploit that all day. Nose tackles play in the middle for a reason. They lack the lateral agility to play at End. In the meantime the suboptimal guy who is playing the position vacated by the Nose will also get run over on all day.

Solder looks like the Stay Puff Man:

6'9 320 lbs. Built like Vollmer. He's definitely not a fattie.

If Solder's footwork and physical tools are as good as Dante and BB thinks he will become a dominant force at LT. And so far I have no reason to doubt Coach Scarnecchia.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sure play your NT out of position and watch New England exploit that all day. Nose tackles play in the middle for a reason. They lack the lateral agility to play at End. In the meantime the suboptimal guy who is playing the position vacated by the Nose will also get run over on all day.

Not that I necessarily agree with the person's idea of moving the NT, since that wouldn't be necessary, but BB moved his NT off the nose quite a bit last year.

 

[Snake Eyes]

As for your idea of putting a NT over him I think it'd be pretty easy to just slam it up the middle with Ridley behind Cannon and Volmer and take you out of that defense in 1 drive.

Some teams have more than one really heavy guy to send in, I'd just take a guy lower on the roster and send him in as a outside rusher against a tall guy who hasn't learned how to keep low and keep my main nose tackle in the center.

 

[ay-yo]

Well there's a reason those guys are lower on the roster. They're not good. This would be pretty easy to exploit as well.

Sure the Pats put Vince at end this season but he's on of the best and most athletic NT in the game. Few NT have his ability to make the transition so easily. We moved Vince not to take advantage of of other teams weaknesses but b/c we were thin at end. It is certainly not Bill's preference.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Well there's a reason those guys are lower on the roster. They're not good. This would be pretty easy to exploit as well.

Sure the Pats put Vince at end this season but he's on of the best and most athletic NT in the game. Few NT have his ability to make the transition so easily. We moved Vince not to take advantage of of other teams weaknesses but b/c we were thin at end. It is certainly not Bill's preference.

1 - They're not good against who? The guys at Nose are going up against Centers, who are rarely as tall as someone like Solder, and the Offensive tackles don't normally take on those kind of defenders. When they get so specialized to take on a edge/speed rusher they'll likely lose ability to take on the bull rushers, and vice versa. It's about finding the mismatch, measure v. counter-measure.

2 - I'm not suggesting we put Wilfork at DE, but if we go up against a team with an extremely tall O-lineman we certainly could throw one of our smaller heavy guys to bull-rush him. I like Blaine Sumner for that role, he'll likely work cheap.

 

[Fencer]

I disagree with the point above. There is probably no EASIER projection for a coach to make than the one moving from OT to OG. If you thought Light was a good run blocker, he'd be the same good run blocker as a G. If you thought he was excellent in pulling on bubble screens, etc, then he'd be just as good pulling from the G position. If you thought he was a good pass blocker with a weakness with certain speed rushers, then he'd be even BETTER as an OG, who rarely has to deal with that issue.

There is a VERY good chance that Light would be an EXCELLENT OG and he'd be paid a very handsome wage to be one for the Pats. Certainly enough that what he might have made elsewhere for a year or two, would be covered by what ending his career as a Patriot would do for his outside income going forward.

There are a lot of risks going forward for a 33 year old guy like Light even if he could get a better contract INITIALLY with another team. That team would ALWAYS be looking to get younger, different systems and coaches could be detrimental to someone who spent his entire career with one coach, and one system. It might not be an exact apple to apples example, but look at what happened to McNabb when he left the Eagle's nest. Its not easy going from one system to another. Staying with the Pats, even at a discount, might be the best long term move for Light.

That being said, this scenario is NOT likely, especially if the Pats decide to keep Mankins. However if Mankins goes, THEN I think it becomes a LOCK.

"No easier projection" does not equate to "easy projection." BB disclaims the ability to project who can flip sides on the line to play the same position, citing the example of Light as a case he got wrong. Changing position would surely have more issues. For example, at LG you're run-blocking guys of a different size than before, who are at a different angle and spacing from you than before -- why can we be sure that will make no difference at all?

As for the money point -- I doubt the numbers work out the way you're suggesting. Do you have a back-of-the-envelope calculation in mind?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Not that I necessarily agree with the person's idea of moving the NT, since that wouldn't be necessary, but BB moved his NT off the nose quite a bit last year.

That's true, but I think that has more to do with Wilfork's athleticism than the OP's idea being a reasonable one

 

[BradyFTW!]

Vollmer, on the other hand, wasn't starting. He got the job due to injury.

True, as did Kaczur in the example that I pointed out. I think we can all agree that it should be taken on a case-by-case basis: there's no universal rule here. Considering that this specific case entails a whole lot of lost time and a guy who wasn't especially pro-ready to begin with, I think it's pretty reasonable to expect Solder not to contribute a ton this year, barring injury. I also expect to see more injuries than normal this year, though, so who knows what could happen.

 

[ay-yo]

1 - They're not good against who? The guys at Nose are going up against Centers, who are rarely as tall as someone like Solder, and the Offensive tackles don't normally take on those kind of defenders. When they get so specialized to take on a edge/speed rusher they'll likely lose ability to take on the bull rushers, and vice versa. It's about finding the mismatch, measure v. counter-measure.

They're just not good in general. If they were good enough to play DE they would be starting there. If it were as simple as you made it sound Brace would have been an excellent DE for us last year and provided great pass rush against many teams. Where was it?

You also don't seem to get how great pass rushers set up their moves. They don't just hammer away with the same one over and over. It's the fact that the OT has to respect their speed, the OT is expecting the DE to go up field and then when he goes bull rush the OT is off balance and out of position. If you know the bull rush is coming and the guy doesn't have the ability to either swim, spin or beat you with pure speed it'll be a lot easier to block the bull rush.

You wanna talk measure vs counter measure. How bout this:

There's a reason teams don't line-up 2 NT every down. I'll run stretch plays and screen's all day toward your back-up NT playing end. Then I hit you with hurry up and the big NT is sucking air. He's unable to get off the field or even do the 1 thing he does well (bull rush) b/c he's too tired. So sure he may make a play or two. In the long run though the multi-dimensional offense the Pats have will beat the BACK-UP a lot more than the BACK-UP will beat an OT with the same move over and over. Your strategy is just too easy to take advantage of.

I'm not saying Solder will be all pro next year and he could struggle against 3-4 teams with really good DE's. But it's not like any tub of lard can line up at DE and run him over.

 

[Snake Eyes]

They're just not good in general. If they were good enough to play DE they would be starting there. If it were as simple as you made it sound Brace would have been an excellent DE for us last year and provided great pass rush against many teams. Where was it?

You also don't seem to get how great pass rushers set up their moves. They don't just hammer away with the same one over and over. It's the fact that the OT has to respect their speed, the OT is expecting the DE to go up field and then when he goes bull rush the OT is off balance and out of position. If you know the bull rush is coming and the guy doesn't have the ability to either swim, spin or beat you with pure speed it'll be a lot easier to block the bull rush.

You wanna talk measure vs counter measure. How bout this:

There's a reason teams don't line-up 2 NT every down. I'll run stretch plays and screen's all day toward your back-up NT playing end. Then I hit you with hurry up and the big NT is sucking air. He's unable to get off the field or even do the 1 thing he does well (bull rush) b/c he's too tired. So sure he may make a play or two. In the long run though the multi-dimensional offense the Pats have will beat the BACK-UP a lot more than the BACK-UP will beat an OT with the same move over and over. Your strategy is just too easy to take advantage of.

I'm not saying Solder will be all pro next year and he could struggle against 3-4 teams with really good DE's. But it's not like any tub of lard can line up at DE and run him over.

- I never said any tub of lard can bull-rush him, you're making an argument against a point which I never made, but Solder was successfully bull-rushed against players MUCH smaller than him. I actually referenced a player for that job who is extremely athletic and doesnt have a lot of fat on him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CObtOq1MRA

- Brace was actually coming along and looked like he was starting to become a solid player but then he got injured, hopefully this season he breaks out.

- Also, a 2nd string player isn't necessarily bad, he's just not as good as the first string player.

- It's a big mistake to assume that just because a player is hefty he has no wind.

- 'If a particular move works there's no reason to stop using that move' -Michael Strahan

 

[Deus Irae]

That's true, but I think that has more to do with Wilfork's athleticism than the OP's idea being a reasonable one

I don't disagree that some NTs would have trouble out there, even against a rookie. I don't think that every one of them but Wilfork would, though, either. I can think of some off of the top of my head that I'd expect to have a big edge over Solder early on, for one reason or another.

Franklin
Ratliff
Rogers
Gregg
Jenkins, if he brought his knees with him

I wouldn't want to leave Solder out alone against any of them on passing downs.

 

[Deus Irae]

True, as did Kaczur in the example that I pointed out. I think we can all agree that it should be taken on a case-by-case basis: there's no universal rule here. Considering that this specific case entails a whole lot of lost time and a guy who wasn't especially pro-ready to begin with, I think it's pretty reasonable to expect Solder not to contribute a ton this year, barring injury. I also expect to see more injuries than normal this year, though, so who knows what could happen.

I'm with you here, because I think the missed time is significant. And there's also the factor with BB. For all we know, he could decide to play Arrington at LT.