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Kraft at Combine: Deal with Wilfork "close"


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In relative terms, yes, but I would argue that owners treat their sport like a hobby and they do not have anywhere near the margins that they have in other businesses.

I think some owners (like Mick Illich, Paul Allen and maybe a few others) treat their teams as hobbies, but your statement made me curious about our own New England Patriots.

Patriots Operating Income Last 6 years (in mil).

2003-$67.3
2004-$30.5
2005-$50.5
2006-$43.6
2007-$34.9
2008-$39.2
2009-$70.9

At a quick glance, they are in top 3 to top 5 almost every year. For many reasons, the Pats are all about running a strong, financially-sound business and making a ton of money do it. Keep in mind for the Kraft's, not only is football a hobby, the business of making deals and money is a hobby.


Say the Patriots have 200 employees, with half of them involved in the highly specialized part of the business (i.e. the part that produces all the dough). I'd wager that they make a ton more money as a % than the top half of employees at similarly lucrative businesses elsewhere.

Depends on the line of business. If you are talking about high-tech or selling cars, sure a small few. But if you are talking securities, hedge funds, M&A, private equity, etc, the hits are very lucrative and the people that make serious coin are many (the group is small, but a high % do well).
 
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No... you're definitely missing the point.

Deus is not "missing" the point. She intentionally overlooks/ignores the point in order to nitpick at someone's post for the sake of being argumentative.
 
He is . . . but it's also at something that, in the scheme of things, makes no difference whatsoever. He's great . . . GREAT . . . at something totally meaningless and he should be very thankful that we decide to make it meaningful for whatever reason we do.

Wow. Sports and entertainment are meaningless? They don't have any positive effects on the world whatsoever? Even just taking the intrinsic value of entertainment and not the economic effects, you have to be out of your mind to believe that.
 
No... you're definitely missing the point. All that I did was outline a way that they could frame up the subject so that it didn't immediately become a public relations cluster****. So when you say that I'm trying to make players adhere to a different system of values, then that's just you failing pretty fundamentally at reading comprehension. For starters, I have not stated my own position on how athletes should be valued, or what the 'proper' thing for them to say publicly would be. If you're interested, my answer would be that I don't really care. If someone's willing to pay Wilfork $12 million per year, then he's worth $12 million per year. I'm simply proposing what I think would be the best way for them to frame it up on a PR level, so any reference that you make to 'my' values is misguided and just shows that you missed the point.

The economic and civic senses of worth already exist. I'm not creating anything here: just pointing out the fact that there is tension between two different definitions of merit, and it is always the root of the PR quagmire when a highly paid individual has a salary grievance. Every single time, and they still just don't learn. Whether or not it bothers me is irrelevant, because it does bother the public, and the whole reason why they're making public statements is to try to come off at least somewhat sympathetically, so that they can put some pressure on the organization to sign them.

And one of the biggest hurdles to this is the whole concept of the overpaid athlete, which exists solely because the public insists on mixing its civic definition of worth into what would ideally be a strictly economic discussion. That's why athletes are always contrasted to teachers: because teachers have a ton of theoretical civic worth (after all what's more precious than our children?? and all that stuff) but very little economic worth, whereas athletes have a ton of economic worth and virtually none on a civic level (they play a game for a living). They're polar opposites.

So obviously, the best PR strategy is to clarify early on that you're not talking on a civic level. Render that viewpoint irrelevant before it has a chance to get going. So, when you say that you deserve 200 times a teacher's salary, you're not saying that you're worth more to society than 200 teachers, or 200 times better than a teacher, or anything like that. Even if it's true, that's PR suicide, and is exactly what they don't want if they're trying to use public sentiment as a leverage point. Rather than blurring the lines between economic and civic worth by analogizing themselves to teachers (which is a battle that they can't win), they ought to be moving the discussion as far away from that as possible.

Which means that you're claiming that I'm taking a position that I never even suggested. What I brought up was strictly a PR strategy, and it's a pretty basic one, at that. It always surprises me that they so consistently fail at it, and surprises me even more that you can't seem to differentiate between a an effective PR strategy and my own personal feelings on the subject. Trust me, I am fully aware that my personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant to them.

But your PR strategy is based upon a value assessment, which was what I was saying. I reject the notion that the players should kowtow to that assessment. It's not that I don't see what happens today, and it's not that I don't see what you're saying. It's that following your method is what athletes have generally done for decades, and it clearly hasn't worked. Pretty much every time a player dares to refuse a team's contract offer, the fans call the player greedy or pull the "I'd like to be insulted for $7 million"card.

And you're right in the sense that a union defending millionaires isn't going to be in the same financial boat as a teacher union, or firefighters, etc..., but they are still a union in battle with ownership, and that's the similarity the athletes need to point to.
 
Owners make millions off these players. Its not unfair for a player to want the maximum payable just like owners want the maximum profit.
 
Very interesting interview, I thought. he was smart to just write the transcript. I'm surprised Kraft was so forthcoming.
 
I still don't get the argument that the Pats strategy hasn't worked since 2004. No it hasn't produced a championship (although the lack of spending on players had nothing to do with not going 19-0 in 2007), but there isn't five teams more successful over the last half decade than the Patriots. Yes, it would be great to have another Super Bowl win or two, but it isn't always in the cards. Even the best organizations ever cannot win every year. I consider the lack of a Super Bowl win since 2004 disapointing, but not a failure of the Pats' system.

One down year (in which the Pats produced 10 wins and won the division) and people think the system is broken or Kraft is cheap ans turned into Jeremy Jacobs in that he is more interested in winning the award for the most profitable team in the league rather than winning Super Bowls. There is no owner more interested in winning rings than Kraft. There might be ones who are just as interested, but Kraft was a fan who bought the team. He wasn't a businessman who decided to buy a team as an investment. He was a season ticket holder when the Pats had 13,000 people going to the game every Sunday. He is more of a fan than most of the people on this board.
 
Wow. Sports and entertainment are meaningless? They don't have any positive effects on the world whatsoever? Even just taking the intrinsic value of entertainment and not the economic effects, you have to be out of your mind to believe that.
I believe it. Sure, I'm hooked on football but I don't think the world would be any less if it never existed.
 
I believe it. Sure, I'm hooked on football but I don't think the world would be any less if it never existed.

Ok. Just never heard of someone that likes to be bored.
 
Ok. Just never heard of someone that likes to be bored.

Humans are a funny species, they can find entertainment in many places.
 
He'd be at the coliseum for the gladiator fights instead.

Well, I do think that $7mil is too much to pay a gladiator to entertain the masses. I mean, with the likelihood of going on the IR and all.
 
Well, I do think that $7mil is too much to pay a gladiator to entertain the masses. I mean, with the likelihood of going on the IR and all.
The market dictates, it is what it is. :confused2:
 
The market dictates, it is what it is. :confused2:

Well fine then... as long as Russell Crowe doesn't start comparing himself to schoolteachers.
 
I hope we trade him for a 1st. I don't think he's worth the distraction. Remember, Ray Rice made him look pretty stupid. I've seen him get blocked out on goal line stands too. I don't like his ungrateful attitude either.

7M for one year maybe fine, but then next year I hope they can get something for him other than a supp. 3rd.

Really we should change the defense all around. We don't have personnel for a 3-4 two gap. It was painful watching this defense last year.
 
Professors involved in Sciences or Engineering of any field relevant to marketable ideas are often involved in the founding of commercial enterprises based on their work, in roles from advisers to founders. Draper Labs history wrt MIT is a good example of how such professors can make a lot of money on the side. Economists can also make a great deal of money from commercial relationships. You also left out Law School types -- enough said there.

Also, when looking at the large amounts of money some athletes can make, you need to remember that their careers are relatively short. After all a double income family making an average of $250K over 40 years has a lifetime income of $10m. Athletes need to either invest well or leverage their careers well to compensate for their relatively short earning careers, particularly in football. And of course far too many athletes fail to understand this and find themselves in financial difficulties when their big money years come to an often abrupt end.

I totally agree that athletes have short careers. Then again, the money so far exceeds what many professionals make that I'm not sur the comparison can be made. Vince mentioned teachers, and we've been talking about the highest paid teachers at universities. To get one of those jobs requires about 10 years of Doctoral and Postgrad studies, so you figure people get their first job at age 35, and then they work for 30 years, beginning with a salary of $50k and ending at $90k (using national current averages for assistant faculty and full professors at research 1 universities).
 
Yes. Yes they are:

Harvard - Larry Summers and The Financial Crisis at Harvard

Yale by year(with schools in parenthesis how much Yale is under each school) - http://www.yale.edu/oir/open/pdf_public/W061_Fac_Sal_Ivys.pdf

Both are consistent with each other.

Those are full professors. They are in the minority. In any department, most of the professors will be assistants and associates, and schools like Harvard and Yale have a reputation for very very low tenure rates. So they constantly churn through new hires.

There are 3x as many assistants and associates at Harvard as full profs, and the avg. salary for associates is 106k and assistants is 95k (still double the national average).
 
I think some owners (like Mick Illich, Paul Allen and maybe a few others) treat their teams as hobbies, but your statement made me curious about our own New England Patriots.

Patriots Operating Income Last 6 years (in mil).

2003-$67.3
2004-$30.5
2005-$50.5
2006-$43.6
2007-$34.9
2008-$39.2
2009-$70.9

At a quick glance, they are in top 3 to top 5 almost every year. For many reasons, the Pats are all about running a strong, financially-sound business and making a ton of money do it. Keep in mind for the Kraft's, not only is football a hobby, the business of making deals and money is a hobby.




Depends on the line of business. If you are talking about high-tech or selling cars, sure a small few. But if you are talking securities, hedge funds, M&A, private equity, etc, the hits are very lucrative and the people that make serious coin are many (the group is small, but a high % do well).

My bro at one of those Wall Street firms makes a great salary, and there are a ton of people like him, making a good mid-range 6 figure salary. That's most of the managers. And then we go to visit him in his 800 foot $3,700 a month apartment. He's been at it for 15 years--and survived the layoffs. I sometimes wonder whether I'm better off in Buffalo making 1/5th what he does. I think I am.
 
Football is an addiction.

I really do have better things to do.

Butt I can't kick it.

I love watching the Patriots. I love the Patriots period. But I do have the nagging feeling that I should be doing something else with my Sundays. It's not like I don't have ideas.
 
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