Jermaine Cunningham, Ron Brace, Brandon Spikes?

[NG Pats Fan]

I just hope we didnt draft the wrong florida defenders(carlos dunlap)

 

[bigfandan]

I agree it takes 3 years. We all like to give them the benefit and believe they will turn the corner. But if history repeats itself, it does not look good for these guys.

It's fair to classify the 3 as marginal players, not showing consistency to be a reliable starter, struggling with injuries.

Recent memories of similar profile players that went bust: Wilhite, Wheatly, Crable, Butler.

Recent memories of similar profile that went on to success:no body? Can you recall any?

History often repeats itself.

I don't think it is possible to make this judgment yet. He was inactive week 1, very likely because he just wasn't game ready, and week 2 doesnt tell us whether he is #1 or #2 MLB yet.


Brace just has to be healthy. When he played last year he played very well. He really was the starter in the 34 when he was healthy, and does seem better suited to 43 DT than 34 DE. Way, way too early to be giving up on him. Injuries are more often bad luck than an inherent problem.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I am becoming a little nervous about Cunningham. That's the guy we really needed to see improvement from, but he is barely on the field. And even when he's on the field there has still been room to debate if he's effective at all. He needs to come on quick.

 

[sbpatfan]

My problem with calling Spikes and Cunningham busts are that last year we were all saying they were home runs and how amazing it was that all these rookies were starting and what a good job we have done. Suddenly they are busts now because they are injured for 2 games.

People on this board need some perspective

Or medication.

 

[condon84]

My problem with calling Spikes and Cunningham busts are that last year we were all saying they were home runs and how amazing it was that all these rookies were starting and what a good job we have done. Suddenly they are busts now because they are injured for 2 games.

People on this board need some perspective

People were saying Cunningham was a home run pick last year? I remember posters constantly having to defend the Cunningham pick because he was being outplayed by Dunlap who we had a chance to pick.

 

[Rob0729]

I just hope we didnt draft the wrong florida defenders(carlos dunlap)

Dunlap is playing in one of the most simplified defenses in the league. If he succeeds in Cincy, doesn't mean he would succeed anywhere else. Also after a good rookie season, from I can tell he has been rather unremarkable so far this season. Granted it is two games.

 

[Rob0729]

People were saying Cunningham was a home run pick last year? I remember posters constantly having to defend the Cunningham pick because he was being outplayed by Dunlap who we had a chance to pick.

I don't know if people said he was a homerun pick, but he did show flashes of being special. He had to be consistent though.

As for defending the pick against Dunlap, two different systems. A lot of players in Marvin Lewis' system end up being flash in the pans too because it is a simple, undisciplined system. Once teams get a book on a player, they tend to regress.

 

[jsull87]

People were saying Cunningham was a home run pick last year? I remember posters constantly having to defend the Cunningham pick because he was being outplayed by Dunlap who we had a chance to pick.

Yes people definately were. I remember people saying what a feat it was for a DE/OLB conversion to "get it" so quickly in BB's defense. The only reason he needed to be defended was suddenly Dunlap plays well getting after the QB in cincy's defense and that somehow had an effect on peoples opinions of Cunningham.

He is injured, all i am saying is lets reserve our opinions of him until he is healthy/gets to play some football and have longer memories than the last game/injury report. Great example was the "Drop/Cut Gronkowski thread last year after the Browns game".

 

[jsull87]

Dunlap is playing in one of the most simplified defenses in the league. If he succeeds in Cincy, doesn't mean he would succeed anywhere else. Also after a good rookie season, from I can tell he has been rather unremarkable so far this season. Granted it is two games.

Two whole games? the guy must be a bust/wasted pick if we are all being consistant and as hard on him as we are on our draft picks.

 

[condon84]

Dunlap is playing in one of the most simplified defenses in the league. If he succeeds in Cincy, doesn't mean he would succeed anywhere else. Also after a good rookie season, from I can tell he has been rather unremarkable so far this season. Granted it is two games.

Being unable to beat your man one-on-one doesn't have anything to do with the system. Dunlap has shown to be a bit more consistent in doing so compared to Cunningham. While I'm not going to write Cunningham off as a bust, I'm not going to say he was close to a home-run pick. Mankins was a home run pick. Cunningham could be a solid pick, depending on how he develops.

 

[Rob0729]

Being unable to beat your man one-on-one doesn't have anything to do with the system. Dunlap has shown to be a bit more consistent in doing so compared to Cunningham. While I'm not going to write Cunningham off as a bust, I'm not going to say he was close to a home-run pick. Mankins was a home run pick. Cunningham could be a solid pick, depending on how he develops.

Cunningham was injured for much of the season last year.

And yes, the system can definitely affect how you beat your man one-on-one. Different systems have players lining up in different plays and playing different responsibilities. Is the player lining up inside the tackle or outside? Are they are weakside or strong side? Is the player in a three point stance or two point stance? What are his responsibilities on each play (just pin his ears back and rush the passer or gap responsibilities or other responsibilities)? There is a lot of things that go into what makes a player an effective pass rusher. A perfect example is Willie McGinest. He was considered washed up as a DE in the 3-4 in a three point stance. He ressurected his career moving to a 3-4 OLB who mostly played in a two point stance. I bet you take a guy who is explosive out of his stance type of player like Dwight Freeney and put him in a two point stance and he turns into an less effective rusher because he won't have the same initial burst.

 

[Rob0729]

Two whole games? the guy must be a bust/wasted pick if we are all being consistant and as hard on him as we are on our draft picks.

I'm not saying Dunlap is a bust or even that he is declining, but we are rushing to judge Cunningham after 18 games (many of which he was injured). There are many Bengals who come out strong out of the gate and rapidly decline as they go along though. Too early to put Dunlap in that category, but he could be a player who might decline after teams get a book on him.

The one good thing about Marvin Lewis is that his system is so simple that players can come out guns smoking when they enter the league. The bad thing is that the simple defense can expose a player's weaknesses and neutralize him after a while.

 

[Sciz]

Being unable to beat your man one-on-one doesn't have anything to do with the system.

It absolutely does. Last season, while Dunlap was focusing on getting to the QB as fast as possible on every snap and possibly tackling the RB if he was in the way and happened to have the ball, Cunningham had to engage his blocker, read the play, and then shed his blocker to either get to the QB or to the RB. It's a heck of a lot harder to get to the QB when you have to read the play first. Hence the difference between "read and react" and "attacking" defensive schemes.

Cunningham had more total pressures than Dunlap last season, but a lot fewer sacks. If Cunningham could fly in at the QB every play like Dunlap, those pressures start turning into sacks...

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The one good thing about Marvin Lewis is that his system is so simple that players can come out guns smoking when they enter the league. The bad thing is that the simple defense can expose a player's weaknesses and neutralize him after a while.

That is true. A very simple system. All he asks players to do is win the one on one battle in front of them. If they do, the Bengals should win.

The problem is with next to no reads being made by the D Line, it is fairly easy to get plays to the second level.

 

[Rob0729]

It absolutely does. Last season, while Dunlap was focusing on getting to the QB as fast as possible on every snap and possibly tackling the RB if he was in the way and happened to have the ball, Cunningham had to engage his blocker, read the play, and then shed his blocker to either get to the QB or to the RB. It's a heck of a lot harder to get to the QB when you have to read the play first. Hence the difference between "read and react" and "attacking" defensive schemes.

I think you said it better than me. I think anyone who ridicules the different systems argument when comparing players don't get get the intricacies of the game. There are just some defenses where d-linemen have no responsibilities other than pin their ears back and try to penetrate the line of scrimage to either get to the QB or the RB.

 

[Marqui]

I think you said it better than me. I think anyone who ridicules the different systems argument when comparing players don't get get the intricacies of the game. There are just some defenses where d-linemen have no responsibilities other than pin their ears back and try to penetrate the line of scrimage to either get to the QB or the RB.

Which is how you get teams like the Colts who have 2 double digit sacks rushers on their edges yet their defense (including their pass D) blows every year.