Immediate impact pass rush specialist?

[MaineMan]

The question is there an edge rusher who is explosive off the edge with more than one move and capable of growing into the run and coverage roles ... who might fall out of the Top 10?

In the NFL Draft Scout Top 64 players there are two-three who might fit that description:

Ryan Kerrigan
Jabaal Sheard
Allen Bailey

All of whom have questions about their ability to play in space.

He appears to have the measurables (6'3"+/260) and has put up consistently good numbers for three seasons, with or without Romeus. But, I've rarely heard Sheard given the "we gotta have THIS guy" treatment for a Pats OLB compared to others like Kerrigan, Houston, Beal, Bailey and a couple others. Why is that?

 

[BelichickFan]

He appears to have the measurables (6'3"+/260) and has put up consistently good numbers for three seasons, with or without Romeus. But, I've rarely heard Sheard given the "we gotta have THIS guy" treatment for a Pats OLB compared to others like Kerrigan, Houston, Beal, Bailey and a couple others. Why is that?

Of course you could have said the same about Jermaine Cunningham all the way up until his name was called of draft day. Bill works in mysterious ways with regard to his LB, Sheard does "fit" he's also a senior who played three full years and a tiny big as a freshman so he fits in a variety of ways.

 

[WesWelker83]

He appears to have the measurables (6'3"+/260) and has put up consistently good numbers for three seasons, with or without Romeus. But, I've rarely heard Sheard given the "we gotta have THIS guy" treatment for a Pats OLB compared to others like Kerrigan, Houston, Beal, Bailey and a couple others. Why is that?

Sheard WILL NOT be taken by New England. Look at this from ESPN: "But he was involved in a fight in July of 2010 in downtown Pittsburgh. Reportedly was ordered by police to stop but refused before being struck by a billy club several times. Continued to fight with suspect before throwing him through a glass door of an art store. Sheard was eventually pepper sprayed, arrested and charged with aggravated assault and resisting arrest."

Versatility: "Moves well laterally but displays tightness in hips with any sudden change of direction. Can spot drop on occasion but not someone you consistently put in this situation. Going to have some issues holding up in one-on-one situations in the open field." He sounds like a 4-3 DE all the way to me. Hes also projected to run in the 4.8s which is way too slow for a NE 3-4 OLB.

Kerrigan is also a 4-3 DE. He looked horrible in OLB drills at the Senior Bowl. Mcshay says hes a 4-3 DE all the way. He can't play in space and he can't cover. Bailey has been absolutely terrible this week as well. Bailey is way too heavy at 285 to play OLB.. Hes raw, plays with weak technique, has trouble getting off blocks, and he struggles changing directions. Hes a 4-3 DE.

 

[patsfaninpa]

The question is there an edge rusher who is explosive off the edge with more than one move and capable of growing into the run and coverage roles ... who might fall out of the Top 10?

In the NFL Draft Scout Top 64 players there are two-three who might fit that description:

Ryan Kerrigan
Jabaal Sheard
Allen Bailey

All of whom have questions about their ability to play in space.

Not to pick on you Box. I don't have the stats in front of me. But, how often did Willie McGinest drop into coverage? 3-4 plays per game?? Every highlight I can remember of him is rushing the passer. Or, stuffing Edge on that 4th and goal in Indy in 03 We really just want him to chip a te once in a while don't we?

As for J. Sheard. I'm a Pitt hater(PSU Alum). And, supposedly that incident is uncharacteristic of him. He even received some honor for saving somebody from a burning house. What's the old saying? I don't mind drafting someone who gets in the occasional fight. As long as he's the one winning them.

 

[MaineMan]

Sheard WILL NOT be taken by New England. Look at this from ESPN: "But he was involved in a fight in July of 2010 in downtown Pittsburgh. Reportedly was ordered by police to stop but refused before being struck by a billy club several times. Continued to fight with suspect before throwing him through a glass door of an art store. Sheard was eventually pepper sprayed, arrested and charged with aggravated assault and resisting arrest."

Versatility: "Moves well laterally but displays tightness in hips with any sudden change of direction. Can spot drop on occasion but not someone you consistently put in this situation. Going to have some issues holding up in one-on-one situations in the open field." He sounds like a 4-3 DE all the way to me. Hes also projected to run in the 4.8s which is way too slow for a NE 3-4 OLB.

Kerrigan is also a 4-3 DE. He looked horrible in OLB drills at the Senior Bowl. Mcshay says hes a 4-3 DE all the way. He can't play in space and he can't cover. Bailey has been absolutely terrible this week as well. Bailey is way too heavy at 285 to play OLB.. Hes raw, plays with weak technique, has trouble getting off blocks, and he struggles changing directions. Hes a 4-3 DE.

At first reading I thought the first sentence of your second graph was a continuation of the report on the fight. I mean, like, "okay, but how's his bob-and-weave?"

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

And Belichick can again wait until this awesome top 5 talent stud slips to us. Or he can consider those less than perfect.

The question is indeed whether a situational pass rusher is worth a top 40 pick. OBVIOUSLY, "an all-around awesome impact player" is worth TWO of our first three picks.

The other thread was started before the season ended.

We have had a WHOLE WEEK to relect. We were the worst in the league on defending 3rd down. Belichick has NEVER seen such poor production on 3rd down.

When Belichick relects on this over the next 3 months, he will find the answer. He's the best. Personally, I think that he will conclude that there is no Seymour, McGinest or Vrabel out there. He has waited and waited. Perhaps another strategy is called for. There is no question of analysis. We do need to improve on our 3rd down production,
====

Third down not the only priority of the offseason, but the others are relatively straighforward,
A) We must maintain the quality of our OT.
B) We must add a couple of running backs.
C) We need to have a plan at wide receiver. Consider our situation if Branch were out for a few games. We need downfield help.
D) We need to develop another safety. It take a year, We have only Chung and Brown signed for 2012.
===========

As I say, these three are straigtforward. Solving the situation on 3rd down is not.

You can always manufacture a blitz. It's even easier if you have an elite secondary. As such, a versatile OLB, will more than do.

Per the reports, I read the kid from Missouri is good in space, fluid, and although light at 250 has the frame to pack on more weight. That seems a better starting point.

The reality is this board will not rest until we have an Aaron Maybin or get the enjoyment out of having a Demarcus Ware/Dallas pass defense.

 

[MaineMan]

Not to pick on you Box. I don't have the stats in front of me. But, how often did Willie McGinest drop into coverage? 3-4 plays per game?? Every highlight I can remember of him is rushing the passer. Or, stuffing Edge on that 4th and goal in Indy in 03 We really just want him to chip a te once in a while don't we?

As for J. Sheard. I'm a Pitt hater(PSU Alum). And, supposedly that incident is uncharacteristic of him. He even received some honor for saving somebody from a burning house. What's the old saying? I don't mind drafting someone who gets in the occasional fight. As long as he's the one winning them.

This exchange sorta has me thinking again that we're looking at two overlapping but different positions and we're lumping together under "OLB".

On the one hand, we're looking at a Ninkovich/Vrabel type: a "true OLB" generalist who's a bit smaller than a typical 4-3 DE, whose role might be thought of as more an extension of the ILBs and whose pass rush is somewhat an afterthought (though Ninkovich isn't awful there). I'm not saying that Ninkovich fills this role well - yet - just postulating "types".

The second position seems more an extension of the D-line with guys like McGinest, Colvin, TBC, maybe Eric Moore - really much more 4-3 DEs. This "position's" primary responsibility is edge pressure with, it's hoped, some considerable ability to set the edge. Pass coverage for THIS position is the afterthought.

Cunningham (also still under development), then, might be an attempt to satisfy the requirements of both "positions" in one, 3-down guy, a true hybrid. Obviously, it's difficult to do this. And, aside from Cunningham, BB has never actually drafted a guy early for either role. So, if we're talking about who BB should or is likely to draft here, either way we're pretty much charting new territory. And we're probably looking for not one guy, but two.

If we're considering a four-man "OLB" roster and most likely to keep Ninkovich and Cunningham, the question for me is how do we want to fill out the other two spots? With one generalist and one rush specialist? With two rush specialists? If we come up with a "true" BB 3-4 DE whose mere presence may serve to enable a more successful rush from generalists like Ninkovich/Cunningham (as Seymour's presence appears to have done in the past), how does that affect this choice?

And, how early in the draft do we really need to take either? How much does the market value a reasonably solid generalist OLB whose pass rush in college wasn't necessarily fabulous? How much does the market value a guy who can "get after the passer" but who can't do much else? And, of course, how much does BB value either?

 

[dryheat44]

You can always manufacture a blitz. .

Yes. Because it's worked so well for us so far.

 

[Patriot Missile]

As for J. Sheard. I'm a Pitt hater(PSU Alum). And, supposedly that incident is uncharacteristic of him. He even received some honor for saving somebody from a burning house. What's the old saying? I don't mind drafting someone who gets in the occasional fight. As long as he's the one winning them.

He is probably the same guy that started the fire in the first place.

 

[MaineMan]

For someone who talks as much smack as you do it's amazing that you won't address my point: wanting a player like Ware in our defense does not mean we want to copy the Dallas defense, we just think that going from Banta-Cain to a Ware-caliber player would be an upgrade. Do you think better bricks and mortar can help make for a better wall?

IDK. I'd probably be more or less okay with TBC's pass rush if he was significantly better setting the edge and could cover a bit. Is Ware significantly better in run defense? I'm not yanking your chain, here. I truly don't have any idea.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

For someone who talks as much smack as you do it's amazing that you won't address my point: wanting a player like Ware in our defense does not mean we want to copy the Dallas defense, we just think that going from Banta-Cain to a Ware-caliber player would be an upgrade. Do you think better bricks and mortar can help make for a better wall?

Address what?

You have zero point.

The reality is a 16 sack stud like Ware did not prevent the Dallas pass defense from being about the worst pass defense in the league.

Speculating about how it would have been without Ware is about as productive and intelligent as debating if the tooth fairy can reduce cavity rates.

Using hypothetical fanatsy to contradict reality makes about zero sense.

Most "experts" had this team going 9-7 or 8-8. They went 14-2.

Most "experts" determined the Patriots to be rebuilding. However, since they went 14-2, it's now a failure because of the playoffs so Belichick now needs to fly off the reservation and do something that he has never done before because of the "failure" of a process that went much better than the determinators thought possible.

The guy has a plan. I am pretty sure he will stick with it. As such, it best to not get hope up that he's going for the magic bean vs the system and philosophy that has earned him the recognition as the greatest coach of his generation.

I guess the only way many will be satisfied is if BB goes out and gets us our own Aaron Maybin.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Address what?

You have zero point.

The reality is a 16 sack stud like Ware did not prevent the Dallas pass defense from being about the worst pass defense in the league.

Speculating about how it would have been without Ware is about as productive and intelligent as debating if the tooth fairy can reduce cavity rates.

Using hypothetical fanatsy to contradict reality makes about zero sense.

Most "experts" had this team going 9-7 or 8-8. They went 14-2.

Most "experts" determined the Patriots to be rebuilding. However, since they went 14-2, it's now a failure because of the playoffs so Belichick now needs to fly off the reservation and do something that he has never done before because of the "failure" of a process that went much better than the determinators thought possible.

The guy has a plan. I am pretty sure he will stick with it. As such, it best to not get hope up that he's going for the magic bean vs the system and philosophy that has earned him the recognition as the greatest coach of his generation.

I guess the only way many will be satisfied is if BB goes out and gets us our own Aaron Maybin.

What does BB do every time he makes a trade or selects a player in the draft? He's speculating that one player will make more of an impact relative to others, it's too bad he doesnt have you on stand-by to tell him how stupid he is.

The reason why that's different from discussing the tooth fairy is because players actually exist, unlike the tooth fairy.

You lose.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

He appears to have the measurables (6'3"+/260) and has put up consistently good numbers for three seasons, with or without Romeus. But, I've rarely heard Sheard given the "we gotta have THIS guy" treatment for a Pats OLB compared to others like Kerrigan, Houston, Beal, Bailey and a couple others. Why is that?

I thought Sheard looked a little stiff, but we'll see how he looks at the Combine (assuming NFL Network doesn't keep the camera on the talking heads the entire time the DL are doing LB drills).

 

[Patriot Missile]

I thought Sheard looked a little stiff, but we'll see how he looks at the Combine (assuming NFL Network doesn't keep the camera on the talking heads the entire time the DL are doing LB drills).

That was really annoying last year.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Not to pick on you Box. I don't have the stats in front of me. But, how often did Willie McGinest drop into coverage? 3-4 plays per game?? Every highlight I can remember of him is rushing the passer. Or, stuffing Edge on that 4th and goal in Indy in 03 We really just want him to chip a te once in a while don't we?

As for J. Sheard. I'm a Pitt hater(PSU Alum). And, supposedly that incident is uncharacteristic of him. He even received some honor for saving somebody from a burning house. What's the old saying? I don't mind drafting someone who gets in the occasional fight. As long as he's the one winning them.

You're picking on me.

Willie was in coverage often enough, as was Colvin, both of whom arguably were stronger rushers than pass defenders. They had to be prepared to assume coverage duty on any given play based on the offensive alignment/adjustments, hence the OLBs signaling back and forth to each other all game long to identify motion and reassign coverage/rush roles.

Cunningham was used primarily as a rusher and Ninkovich was in coverage more, which is a weakness of inexperience the defense needs to improve heading into 2011. It's one of the reasons TBC generally was in on 60% of snaps most games, he was the veteran who was least limited by in the various roles despite his own shortcomings.

I'm eager for more speed/ability off the edge too, but it needs to come in a package that like Cunningham can at least develop into the other roles.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

That was really annoying last year.

It appeared to be even worse at the Senior Bowl this year so I don't have high hopes.

 

[andrewgarrr]

When was the last time BB drafted a non-3-down defensive player in the first round? Vince Wilfork.

He values the ability to play on all three downs, and thus I think it is highly unlikely that they draft a 'specialist' on round 1.

 

[Water Boy]

When was the last time BB drafted a non-3-down defensive player in the first round? Vince Wilfork.

He values the ability to play on all three downs, and thus I think it is highly unlikely that they draft a 'specialist' on round 1.

I wouldn't define Wilfork as a two down player. He's one of the best interior pass rushers on the team. If the Pats were to play a one gap 4-3, I could easily see him with close to 10 sacks a season.

 

[Off The Grid]

Sheard WILL NOT be taken by New England. Look at this from ESPN:

~ "Reportedly was ordered by police to stop but refused before being struck by a billy club several times.

~ Continued to fight with suspect before throwing him through a glass door of an art store."

Dude, I don't follow you.

~ He sticks to his assignments.

~ He sets the edge, despite being literally assaulted on all sides.

~ And he plays with tremendous leverage: "through" the glass door!!

Sounds like a Patriot to ME!! :rocker:

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Dude, I don't follow you.

~ He sticks to his assignments.

~ He sets the edge, despite being literally assaulted on all sides.

~ And he plays with tremendous leverage: "through" the glass door!!

Sounds like a Patriot to ME!! :rocker:

Probably doesn't matter since the Bungles must have moved him up their draft board after the arrest.