I'm tired of this Colts are loaded with talent myth

[NinjaZX6R]

Our 2009 team blew plenty of halftime leads if I remember correctly.

Yup.
Jets, Miami, Denver, Texans and the Colts.

 

[Rob0729]

Let me fix it for you.

Wayne- ELITE
Garcon- Drops passes but one of the most elusive wr's in the game
Collie- One of the best slot recievers in the league....sucks this year because horrible qb's cant use slot recievers.. Collie is better than Garcon with a solid QB
Blair White- good enough to be playin but nothing above good
Jeff Saturday- Old but still one the best C's
Dallas Clark- Elite pass catching tight end that is getting older
Tamme- great pass catching TE
Joseph Addai- Top 20 RB in the league....he'd be an amazing 3rd down back but is an ABV AVG STARTING RB
Brown- maybe the best RB on the team!!!! He hasn't gotten oppurtunities but when he has he has shown he has the skills to be a starting rb.
Delone Carter- looking solid for a rookie
Everyone says their o-line worst in the league every year...it is one of the worst but nowhere close to the worst

Freeney- ELITE HOF
Mathis- HOF underrated because everyone thinks Freeney makes him.
Angerer- extremely solid LB but yes stats are padded
Brackett- Colt's Bruschi
Bethea- One of the best safeties in the game
Powers- Underrated future probowler
Nevis- Solid rookie

With an OK QB this team is .500 or atleast 5-6 easily

The fact that Donald Brown is the best back on the Colts speaks volumes to why Addai is overrated. Before this year, he has a career average of under 4.0 YPC and only got it up to 4.0 because he is running alot this year with the Colts so far behind that teams don't care about him. He has 1,134 yards and 8 TDs for his career. BJGE had 1,008 yards and 12 TDs last year alone. Brown sucks.

Joseph Addai is 50th in rushing yards this year. He is nowhere close to a top 20 RB. Even last year with Manning, he was 42nd in rushing yards. He is a receiving back and that is it. He is totally miscast as a lead back. He sucks at that.

Mathis is nowhere near a HOF. He might get into the Colts' Ring of Honor, but the only way he is getting into Canton is if he buys a ticket.

Tame is a product of Manning. The guy has 102 yards this year and 75 of them came against the Jags. And about half of the yards in that game came on a 29 yard pass.

Brackett right now is Bruschi circa 2007. A bit broken down and no where near as good as he was. He has been on IR most of this year and missed 10 games the previous three years.

With a healthy Manning, this team is .500 maybe 5-6. With an ok QB, this team is 2-9. The team last year with a far eaiser schedule were 10-6 with Manning having a pretty good year. This year, Manning wouldn't be able to repeat that.

 

[Sfpat]

Wait a sec, why would the steelers be trying to lose?

EDIT: sorry did you mean they were simply playing not to lose, like just a half assed game? Rather than giving it their all for the win? Sorry was confused for a sec....

Yes, I think you have described it better.

 

[condon84]

Let me fix it for you.

Wayne- ELITE
Garcon- Drops passes but one of the most elusive wr's in the game
Collie- One of the best slot recievers in the league....sucks this year because horrible qb's cant use slot recievers.. Collie is better than Garcon with a solid QB
Blair White- good enough to be playin but nothing above good
Jeff Saturday- Old but still one the best C's
Dallas Clark- Elite pass catching tight end that is getting older
Tamme- great pass catching TE
Joseph Addai- Top 20 RB in the league....he'd be an amazing 3rd down back but is an ABV AVG STARTING RB
Brown- maybe the best RB on the team!!!! He hasn't gotten oppurtunities but when he has he has shown he has the skills to be a starting rb.
Delone Carter- looking solid for a rookie
Everyone says their o-line worst in the league every year...it is one of the worst but nowhere close to the worst

Freeney- ELITE HOF
Mathis- HOF underrated because everyone thinks Freeney makes him.
Angerer- extremely solid LB but yes stats are padded
Brackett- Colt's Bruschi
Bethea- One of the best safeties in the game
Powers- Underrated future probowler
Nevis- Solid rookie

With an OK QB this team is .500 or atleast 5-6 easily

If BB had this squad, they'd be contending for a playoff spot.

 

[Rob0729]

Another one gets fooled.

Don't you realise that this football team did not want to win football games this year. Flat out, did not want to win football games! Just like Tony Mazz said today which was that there should be full investigation into the Colts games and every game.

I brought this up after week 5 when I saw shady things going on. Half time leads consistenly evaporating was the first red flag, then I started sniffing into their games and got confirmation.

This football team has plenty of talent, listen, they didn't want to win football games this year, it's really that simple. People want to assume that Polian didn't draft good players etc. That's a cop out. There's plenty of talent on that team that was IR'd purposely and are not giving their all.

Drop the no talent argument.

Polian is such a genius that he purposely had the team ply like crap last year too and require Manning to bail them out of at least 3-4 games where they won, but would have been blown out without Manning.

I am not basing my premise on this year alone. The Colts sucked last year and Manning carried them to 10-6 and he could only do that because the Colts had a soft schedule. If Manning was out last year, the Colts would have won 4-6 games with an average QB.

Yes, they are not as bad as their record, but they are a bad team with not much talent beyond a handful of players and name value. You could see that last year that they were a team that were not very good and Manning had to carry them. That is why many people predicted the Colts not to make the playoffs this year even before they knew Manning would miss the season.

Besides, the Colts didn't go for full fledge "Suck for Luck" mode until at least until week 7 when the Dolphins started to win. Before then, there was no guarantee you were going to get Luck even if you went 0-16 since there was a possibility of two teams doing it.

 

[Rob0729]

If BB had this squad, they'd be contending for a playoff spot.

I don't know about that. Granted Belichick would never build a team like this in a million years. The team is built with no running game whatsoever and a defense that can only perform well with a lead and their two best players can just pin their ears back and rush the passer because they struggle as run defenders.

Belichick doesn't build his team to totally rely on Brady. The Colts do. Even Belichick couldn't turn a team build around Manning into a playoff contender.

But then again, that doesn't speak to the talent of the team even if Belichick could turn it into a contender since Belichick has shown he can turn scrubs and players from the other side of the ball into productive players.

 

[Patriot Missile]

With Manning at QB this was a 8-10 win team. That system they had in place was designed to work for Peyton Manning and all the timing that goes with it. Sustained drives would of helped this team immensely. Especially on defense. How many times would Manning audible out of a set or formation when he recognized the defense and what they are trying to do? The big variable is Manning here and I think this is lost in the original post.

Yes the Colts are on the decline regardless who plays QB, but that is due to age of the elite players and Polians inability to draft the last few years.

 

[PatsFan24]

All I have heard this week is with this talent on the Colts' roster, they should be at least .500 if they had a decent QB. I look at that team and I think they have no more than 3-4 wins at most.

I still maintain that Peyton Manning's legacy dodged a huge bullet this season with him out because even with a healthy Manning, they weren't going to be better than .500. With Manning last year, they were 10-6 and they had the AFC West to walk over rather than the AFC North this year.

Let's look at the supposive talent:

Defense

Dwight Freeney - Yes, an elite DE
Robert Mathis - A very good DE
Pat Angerer - Gets padded stats because the Colts' defense is on the field most of the game
Gary Brackett - Injury prone and overrated. Hasn't been good since 2007
Antonine Bethea - Very good safety

So they have three of eleven defensive starters that are good.

Offense

Reggie Wayne - Elite WR
Austin Collie - Injury prone and overrated (decent back up, but not a starter)
Pierre Garcon - Very streaky (half of his yards and all of his TDs this year came in two games)
Dallas Clark - A very good TE
Jeff Saturday - Old and overrated
Joseph Addai - Could be a great 3rd down back, totally miscast as a lead back and still living off his reputation of his rookie season
Donald Brown - Total bust who's career stats for yards and TDs are pretty much what BJGE gave the Pats last season
Ryan Diem - Overrated

So they have probably 3-4 players on offense any good

The fact of the matter is if you get past all the names, this is a bad team and their record isn't much worse than the talent they actually had. Manning hid a lot of warts last year with an easy schedule. I think with a significantly tougher schedule this year from last year (their own division is more competitive this year and the AFC North is the best division in football) even Manning couldn't hide the warts this year. This team has been living on a cake division, reputations, and Manning's arm for the last few years. Polian has allowed the talent to get old or leave while not replacing the pieces over the last few years.

As you see it. For whatever that is worth.

I agree with those who say the team is on the decline and would be even with Manning. However they still have some talent for sure.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I was just out-and-about and had Holley and Ordway on the radio; they were going on a bit too much about Valentine, so I spent the last two minutes over at 98.5, see what those two ... guys ... were up to. Felger was actually on about how tanking the season will make the Colts so much better than the Patriots, long term, because they're restocking a team that's so loaded with talent. I mean, please. I'm glad you created this thread because I wanted to mention this without giving that show its own thread.

Turning it away from media sewage and back to the team: For Sunday, yeah, you have to respect some of the players the Colts have. Thing is that a lot of their best players are getting up there in years. Really, any players they add to develop in the next draft will have to basically be groomed to replace — not supplement — a lot of these guys. They also might want to consider a philosophical shift, so they're not so dependent on one player and aspect (ie Manning passing) of the game.

I suffered through that same segment. Maz kept insisting BB was a better man but a worse manager for not tanking in 2008 so they could do what Polian is doing...15 years of competitive excellence with 15 more to follow. LOL Maz ia such an ignorant tool he doesn't even know that Manning has only been playing for 13 years and the first 3-4 were not all that competitive (just ask Jim Mora) and they didn't get over the hump until year 9... Now I'm listening to Paul Perillo argue that you draft Luck and TRADE Manning after a year so you get the QB of the future plus a boatload of picks to build around him. I will never understand how guys who do this for a living get away with being so freakin' ignorant of simple concepts like how you have to be under contract to be traded...and the implications of 27M+ dead caps...

Boston mediots are by and large both the most arrogant and ignorant collection of fanboys ever assembled to chronicle a dynasty...

I have to go channel surf now, Tom E the dragon is bloviating...:bricks:

 

[PatsFan24]

Another one gets fooled.

Don't you realise that this football team did not want to win football games this year. Flat out, did not want to win football games! Just like Tony Mazz said today which was that there should be full investigation into the Colts games and every game.

I brought this up after week 5 when I saw shady things going on. Half time leads consistenly evaporating was the first red flag, then I started sniffing into their games and got confirmation.

This football team has plenty of talent, listen, they didn't want to win football games this year, it's really that simple. People want to assume that Polian didn't draft good players etc. That's a cop out. There's plenty of talent on that team that was IR'd purposely and are not giving their all.

Drop the no talent argument.

This is total BS. To think that players don't want to win games is not in touch with reality.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I said with a decent QB would give them 3-4 wins. If they had say a Matt Ryan, they might be 3-8 right now. They aren't as bad as the 0-16 Lions, but they are a bad team with or without a decent QB. A Manning might get them to .500.

Manning led them to 10 wins last year and 14 wins the year before, not to mention the countless winning seasons they've had for the past 10 years or so.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If BB had this squad, they'd be contending for a playoff spot.

No, they wouldn't. First off Bill would not have ever assembled that kind of top heavy depthless squad. Like he noted today, he has a program and a system built around a strong middle class to be capable of overcoming adversity. Polian had Manning and a fast cheap defense capable of winning only when the planets perfectly were aligned...and they only managed to get the alignment right once... The year after they lucked out in the SB draw Polian fielded a team with 19 players on his 53 man roster who had NEVER TAKEN A SNAP IN THE NFL... Because he had to. Manning and a handful of talent on offense and defense were taking up most of his cap...and he's snakebit and scared to death of FA and he's lost his fastball as a drafter making huge and costly mistakes in the early rounds.

 

[ivanvamp]

All I have heard this week is with this talent on the Colts' roster, they should be at least .500 if they had a decent QB. I look at that team and I think they have no more than 3-4 wins at most.

I still maintain that Peyton Manning's legacy dodged a huge bullet this season with him out because even with a healthy Manning, they weren't going to be better than .500. With Manning last year, they were 10-6 and they had the AFC West to walk over rather than the AFC North this year.

Let's look at the supposive talent:

Defense

Dwight Freeney - Yes, an elite DE
Robert Mathis - A very good DE
Pat Angerer - Gets padded stats because the Colts' defense is on the field most of the game
Gary Brackett - Injury prone and overrated. Hasn't been good since 2007
Antonine Bethea - Very good safety

So they have three of eleven defensive starters that are good.

Offense

Reggie Wayne - Elite WR
Austin Collie - Injury prone and overrated (decent back up, but not a starter)
Pierre Garcon - Very streaky (half of his yards and all of his TDs this year came in two games)
Dallas Clark - A very good TE
Jeff Saturday - Old and overrated
Joseph Addai - Could be a great 3rd down back, totally miscast as a lead back and still living off his reputation of his rookie season
Donald Brown - Total bust who's career stats for yards and TDs are pretty much what BJGE gave the Pats last season
Ryan Diem - Overrated

So they have probably 3-4 players on offense any good

I don't know if this has already been done in the rest of this thread, but let's look at the Pats' talent. How many good/elite players does NE have?

Offense:
QB Brady (elite)
OG Mankins (good)
OT Light (good)
TE Gronk (elite)
TE Hernandez (good)
WR Welker (elite)

The rest of the OL is fine, and the RB corps is fine. Nobody would suggest that the rest of the receivers are good (really) or elite.

Defense:
DT Wilfork (elite)
DE Carter (good)
LB Mayo (good)
CB Arrington (??????)

So I count 9 players that fit this standard. You had a similar number for Indy. The issue is that the Pats have a lot more depth and MUCH better coaching and *MUCH* better QB play this year.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't know if this has already been done in the rest of this thread, but let's look at the Pats' talent. How many good/elite players does NE have?

Offense:
QB Brady (elite)
OG Mankins (good)
OT Light (good)
TE Gronk (elite)
TE Hernandez (good)
WR Welker (elite)

The rest of the OL is fine, and the RB corps is fine. Nobody would suggest that the rest of the receivers are good (really) or elite.

Defense:
DT Wilfork (elite)
DE Carter (good)
LB Mayo (good)
CB Arrington (??????)

So I count 9 players that fit this standard. You had a similar number for Indy. The issue is that the Pats have a lot more depth and MUCH better coaching and *MUCH* better QB play this year.

You missed Brian Waters (arguably the best RG in football this year). You missed Chung who is an above average safety. You missed Spikes who is a very good run down LB. By my count, the Pats have 7 good to elite players on offense alone. That is how many the Colts may have on their team.

 

[Rob0729]

Manning led them to 10 wins last year and 14 wins the year before, not to mention the countless winning seasons they've had for the past 10 years or so.

Manning got them to 10 wins last year with a much easier schedule than this year. It is easy to get to 10 wins when the rest of your division can't get above .500 like the AFC South had last year (the Jags were .500 and the other two teams were below .500). This year, both the Texans and Titans look to be above .500.

Also again, the Colts faced the AFC West least year where the best team was 10-6. This year the Colts face the AFC North which may have three teams who have double digit wins and/or make the playoffs. The Colts have a much harder schedule this year.

I stand by my original premise. The Colts are probably a .500 team or worse with a healthy Manning.

 

[Rob0729]

As you see it. For whatever that is worth.

I agree with those who say the team is on the decline and would be even with Manning. However they still have some talent for sure.

They have some talent, but compared to the rest of the league it is far closer to the bottom than the top.

 

[strngplyr]

You missed Brian Waters (arguably the best RG in football this year). You missed Chung who is an above average safety. You missed Spikes who is a very good run down LB. By my count, the Pats have 7 good to elite players on offense alone. That is how many the Colts may have on their team.

It all depends what you classify as "elite".

On offense I'd consider Brady, Welker, and Gronk "Elite"'. Maybe Waters, with Mankins and Light being above average. Vollmer/Solder are solid. Our revolving door at Center has been dependable, nothing earth shattering.

Branch is a very good WR in this offense only, but disappears on occasion which is alarming. Hernandez is great, not elite yet, but paired with Gronk they form the best TE duo by a mile.

Benny is far above average in my opinion, but not elite. He benefits greatly from having TB at QB, defenses have to respect that first, leaving room to run on occasion. He does have great vision, always seems to fall forward, and has the longest active streak in the NFL without a turnover, including the longest to start a career and as far as we know has never turned it over period. Unfortunately he will never get 20 touches per game with Brady here. I think he could handle it and be considered elite with the chance.

I am curious to see what players you consider elite. I think you're showing a combination of bias and lack of Colts knowledge. I will admit I couldn't name half of their roster but still think they have many very good players. Their issue is that they have no coach and aren't playing as a team. Not that they lack talent.

 

[jcdavey]

i think they have alot of talent, but none of it was ever on the oline

peyton's quick delivery (also sometimes increased ints) made his oline look good sometimes, but you could see just how small they were when they'd play a sd or pitt or ne team who could bully their oline even faster than peyton could get rid of the ball.....

 

[strngplyr]

i think they have alot of talent, but none of it was ever on the oline

peyton's quick delivery (also sometimes increased ints) made his oline look good sometimes, but you could see just how small they were when they'd play a sd or pitt or ne team who could bully their oline even faster than peyton could get rid of the ball.....

I am curious to see how a 43 DLine of Carter, Wilfork, Daedrick/Love, and Anderson will do against the Colt's line with a QB who will be making his first start in a few years.

He'll probably be slow on the delivery and unsure of his protections, being rusty and never very competent to begin with should be a fun combination for us.

I am surprised that after 11 games they've only allowed 23 sacks.

 

[Rob0729]

It all depends what you classify as "elite".

On offense I'd consider Brady, Welker, and Gronk "Elite"'. Maybe Waters, with Mankins and Light being above average. Vollmer/Solder are solid. Our revolving door at Center has been dependable, nothing earth shattering.

Branch is a very good WR in this offense only, but disappears on occasion which is alarming. Hernandez is great, not elite yet, but paired with Gronk they form the best TE duo by a mile.

Benny is far above average in my opinion, but not elite. He benefits greatly from having TB at QB, defenses have to respect that first, leaving room to run on occasion. He does have great vision, always seems to fall forward, and has the longest active streak in the NFL without a turnover, including the longest to start a career and as far as we know has never turned it over period. Unfortunately he will never get 20 touches per game with Brady here. I think he could handle it and be considered elite with the chance.

I am curious to see what players you consider elite. I think you're showing a combination of bias and lack of Colts knowledge. I will admit I couldn't name half of their roster but still think they have many very good players. Their issue is that they have no coach and aren't playing as a team. Not that they lack talent.

First, read my original post. I bunched all the good to elite players together. If I was counting elite players on the Patriots right now, I count 4 - Brady, Welker, Waters, and Gronk. I think Wilfork is having a great year, but not an elite year. No other player has been good enough to be considered remotely elite.

Second, I am not lacking knowledge or being biased. I think I am being pretty objective. If I was being biased, I wouldn't give Manning so much credit for carrying the Colts like he did last year. I absolutely hate the Brady/Manning comparisons and I would want nothing more to say that Brady means more to his team than Manning. The simple fact is the Colts the last few years has mostly been Manning and a weak division. If you look at the Colts last year even with a relatively easy schedule, they were near the bottom is rushing yards, yards allowed, points allowed, opposing QB passer rating, etc. And that was with Manning. The only stats they were remotely good was the passing offense where they were first in yards and second in TDs.

Third, look at my list. I didn't include either Branch or BJGE in my list of good players. Probably shouldn't have included Anderson. Branch and BJGE have been too inconsistent this year to be in that classification. I think BJGE would easily start on the Colts, but that is because they don't have a lead back in any sense of the word.

Fourth, in my classification of elite players for the Colts, I gave the players who were elite in the past like Freeney and Clark the benefit of the doubt. Because of based on this year's performance, the Colts have zero elite players. I don't even give former elite Patriots players like Mankins and Wilfork who aren't up to previous years level that benefit of the doubt.