Honest Assessment of AFC East

[feelthepain]

FTP,
I realize you love your team and you're excited about the idea of having a real QB for the first time since you know who. That's what the offseason is for, and why should we want to put a damper on your enthusiasm? Go back to your home board and celebrate the offseason with your fellow 'phins fans. But you are becoming nothing more than a troll. Let's wait till Daunte actually plays a game before putting him in the Dolphin Hall of Fame. C'mon, kid.:bricks:

This isn't a shot at the Pats or their fans it's a thread with lots of information in it. Nothing more.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

FeelthePain, thanks for killing the thread which was by the way called 'Honest assessment of the AFC East' and NOT 'Brady vs Culpepper'.
As you can see from the first many pages in this thread, my fellow Pats supporters gave Welker83 many respectful replies and a few -'thanks for stopping by with the MIA opinion' responses. He kept on topic and even though disagreed with our opinions - did so intelligently while supporting the Miami bandwagon. Maybe you were purposely trying to get under our skin with the 'Brady not as good as you think' rhetoric - maybe it was unintentional. But you have to realize our not so polite responses are due to:

1) It was off topic of this threat (AFC East TEAMS). If the QB comparison is your burning passion in life - start a new thread.
2) We have heard it for years from the national media. First, it was 'Brady is a short yardage thrower', then 'good QB but mainly a product of the system - not an MVP candidate' etc. Now most all intelligent football analysts agree - he is a certain lock for Canton. (Unless he crashes a tricycle into a car)
3) You will never convince any PATS fans that he is not the greatest - maybe you can convince other Fins fans but if thats your purpose - do it on a Fins fansite. Your argument will not get you anything here but disrespect.
4) Statistics with % completions, INT ratios, etc. can be used / manipulated in many ways. It's nice you took the time to come up with all those regular season stats - but when you compare the supporting offensive players who caught those balls - it doesn't support the Culpepper argument at all. Not to mention the credibility of the running game, which keeps the defense honest. In both cases, MINN offense had much more talent at WR and RB. The most important stat is W/L and BLING RINGS. Comparing a 10-1 playoff QB with 3 rings (& 2 SB MVP's) is alittle silly vs a QB (Culpepper) with 0 rings and a 2-2 playoff record.

I am not so sure why I am bothering to write this - except maybe to enlighten any other Fins fans who wish to post and receive respectful replies from us Pats fans on our site.

 

[JR4]

..............
My list of 15 QB's that could have lead the Pats to three SB's with the same exact team coaching staff and situations Brady had.


1) Carson Palmer
2) Ben Roethlisberger
3) Donavan McNabb
4) Drew Brees
5) Trent Green
6) Steve McNair
7) Marc Bolger
8) Brad Johnson
9) Bret Favre
10) Peyton Manning
11)Jake Plummer
12) Jake Delhome
13)Byron Leftwich
14)Daunte Culpepper
15)Matt Hasselbeck

I'm sure some will disagree, after all no one is better then Brady (Pat fans opinion only), but they don't have to be. They just need to, in the immortal words of BB, "Do their job"!! .....

you make a statement like the above and you lose all credibility.
This assertion shows you don't know what you are talking about.
.... go waste other peoples time.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Feel the pain:

That's it? That's all you got?

I told you, I want point by point in depth analysis about all 15 QBs and why they would achieve each goal I mentioned, from most superbowl completions, to longest win streak, to 10-1 in playoffs, to lead the league in touchdowns and yards, to most passes completed without an int. as a rookie, EVERYTHING. POINT BY POINT ANALYSIS to back up your claim. And I want you to explain how they would have done it with Brady's supporting cast, such as Dave Patten and Antowain Smith, a revolving door of castoff O-Linemen. I want to know for each season, why you believe each QB would have achieved the same things within the confines of the other 'skill' players on the team. And analyize the other factors, like Brady having a seperated throwing shoulder AND broken bursa sack in his throwing elbow for all of 2003, or leading the league in yards with a sports hernia last year. Project these injuries onto your other players, and why they would have lead the league in yards and won a superbowl under similiar circumstances.

And nice stats on Culpepper, but did you include the NFL record for fumbles, many of which came on his scrambles (which coaches have subsequently tried to limit)? I doubt he will scramble more and more as he ages, but it is okay with me because he normally turns over the ball.

If you check my prior posts, you will notice that I went out of my way to 'respect' Welker83 for not being a troll, but having valid points.

Go to the Fins site, claim you are a Pats fan, and announce that 15 QBs could have done what Marino did if they were only on that Dolphins team. See if you are treated like a troll.

 

[feelthepain]

4) Statistics with % completions, INT ratios, etc. can be used / manipulated in many ways. It's nice you took the time to come up with all those regular season stats - but when you compare the supporting offensive players who caught those balls - it doesn't support the Culpepper argument at all. Not to mention the credibility of the running game, which keeps the defense honest. In both cases, MINN offense had much more talent at WR and RB. The most important stat is W/L and BLING RINGS. Comparing a 10-1 playoff QB with 3 rings (& 2 SB MVP's) is alittle silly vs a QB (Culpepper) with 0 rings and a 2-2 playoff record.

Only if the QB were the only player on the team, you like most Pat fans refuse to accept the fact that Brady didn't win those Post season games alone. As for the two teams running games the Vikes were not better.

I think you need to read every post in this thread before you single me out. Read how many Pat fans in this thread talk about how great Brady is and how Culpepper isn't on Bradys level, then you'll understand why I posted the thread about the 2 QB's. There also seems to be some unhappy fans because I do a simple cmparison between the two QB's.

I am not disrepecting any fans or players here just having a friendly debate, I'm not insulting or trashing anyone. If you fans can't discuss things like this whats the point of the forums?? Just to talk about how great the Pats are?? As far as the Teams in the east I can't speak for the Jets or Bills, ony the fins. As far as the two QB's, I'm not the one disrespecting your QB, but many here seem to think Culpepper is garbage. Thats why I suggest you go back and read all the posts instead of just reading mine. I respond to what I read, and I do it without insulting.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Good post, I don't agree with everything, but it wasn't full of ignorant hate...refreshing. I also understand what you mean about comparing players, but I though I would put up Daunte and Bradys #'s I think you'll find them very interesting. For the Pat fans that think Brady is the only reason for the SB victories, Let the excuses fly:

Culpepper:

1999 Minnesota Vikings 1 0 0 0 --- 0 --- 0 0 0 0/0 0 0 ---
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 474 297 62.7 3937 8.31 78 33 16 34/181 56 13 98.0
2001 Minnesota Vikings 11 11 366 235 64.2 2612 7.14 57 14 13 33/186 34 5 83.3
2002 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 549 333 60.7 3853 7.02 61 18 23 47/244 48 9 75.3
2003 Minnesota Vikings 14 14 454 295 65.0 3479 7.66 59 25 11 37/196 41 10 96.4
2004 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 548 379 69.2 4717 8.61 82 39 11 46/238 63 18 110.9
2005 Minnesota Vikings 7 7 216 139 64.4 1564 7.24 68 6 12 31/169 16 2 72.0
TOTAL 81 80 2607 1678 64.4 20162 7.73 82 135 86 228/1214 258 57 91.5


Rushing:

1999 Minnesota Vikings 1 0 3 6 2.0 9 0 0 1
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 89 470 5.3 27 7 5 36
2001 Minnesota Vikings 11 11 71 416 5.9 34 5 3 31
2002 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 106 609 5.7 38 10 4 46
2003 Minnesota Vikings 14 14 73 422 5.8 42 4 1 28
2004 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 88 406 4.6 16 2 0 32
2005 Minnesota Vikings 7 7 24 147 6.1 18 1 0 11
TOTAL 81 80 454 2476 5.5 42 29 13 185


Brady:

2000 New England Patriots 1 0 3 1 33.3 6 2.00 6 0 0 0/0 0 0 42.4
2001 New England Patriots 15 14 413 264 63.9 2843 6.88 91 18 12 41/216 32 6 86.5
2002 New England Patriots 16 16 601 373 62.1 3764 6.26 49 28 14 31/190 37 3 85.7
2003 New England Patriots 16 16 527 317 60.2 3620 6.87 82 23 12 32/219 44 8 85.9
2004 New England Patriots 16 16 474 288 60.8 3692 7.79 50 28 14 26/162 52 10 92.6
2005 New England Patriots 16 16 530 334 63.0 4110 7.75 71 26 14 26/188 59 9 92.3
TOTAL 80 78 2548 1577 61.9 18035 7.08 91 123 66 156/975 224 36 88.5


RUSHING:

2000 New England Patriots 1 0 0 0 --- 0 0 0 0
2001 New England Patriots 15 14 36 43 1.2 12 0 0 7
2002 New England Patriots 16 16 42 110 2.6 15 1 0 20
2003 New England Patriots 16 16 42 63 1.5 11 1 0 11
2004 New England Patriots 16 16 43 28 0.7 10 0 0 12
2005 New England Patriots 16 16 27 89 3.3 15 1 0 16
TOTAL 80 78 190 333 1.8 15 3 0 66

The reason I bring in the numbers is to show that some Pat fans here seem to be a bit mislead or they just don't know the facts. Well here they are. If you look at all the numbers Brady and Culpepper are very close, some #'s favor Brady, but Culpepper has more impressive numbers. Brady has one less game and more then 2000 less passing yards. TD/INT # between the two are nearly the same. Daunte has a career QB rating of 91.5 while Bradys is 88.5. There is also the matter of rushing yrds. Brady has 190 att. for 333 yrds an avg of 1.8 ypc. Culpepper has 454 att. for 2456 an avg of 5.4 ypc. As if that weren't enough look at the teams and coach Culpepper had and look at the teams and coach Brady had.

I read some of the Pat fans posts here and you guys post like Brady is a god and all the teams success is is because of Brady, well I've shown you Daunte's numbers and they are better then Toms with far less talent overall. Culpepper doesn't have three SB rings because he didn't have the team, coaching staff and owner that Tom Brady and the Pats do. I would think you Pats fans would know all of this already, but you post like you don't care about what the Pats have done as a TEAM!!!! It's all about Brady.

A little advise here, you will not win 3 SB's in 4 years every decade, and you should learn to appreciate what you've been blessed with. A TEAM that dominated, rather then acting like it's your right to be this lucky. In other words try a little slice of humble pie, it's far more becoming. We as Fin fans understand Daunte had less then impressive #'s last year, but those #'s were added to his overall #'s and Culpepper still has better numbers then Brady. We also know he has a knee injury to overcome, as of right now Culpepper plans on playing games during the preason and he plans on being on the field when the season starts. If Daunte goes down then Hrrington was signed as depth, and oh BTW, Harrington has far more experience and better numbers then anything the Pats have on their depth chart if Brady goes down.


My list of 15 QB's that could have lead the Pats to three SB's with the same exact team coaching staff and situations Brady had.


1) Carson Palmer
2) Ben Roethlisberger
3) Donavan McNabb
4) Drew Brees
5) Trent Green
6) Steve McNair
7) Marc Bolger
8) Brad Johnson
9) Bret Favre
10) Peyton Manning
11)Jake Plummer
12) Jake Delhome
13)Byron Leftwich
14)Daunte Culpepper
15)Matt Hasselbeck

I'm sure some will disagree, after all no one is better then Brady (Pat fans opinion only), but they don't have to be. They just need to, in the immortal words of BB, "Do their job"!! Thats exactly what Brady does. His numbers aren't spectacular and will never reach what Marino, Favre and Elway did because Brady isn't a gun slinger he's a a "keep the chains moving" type of QB and isn't any QB on the list above capable of doing that?? This is not a knock on Brady or what he's done. Afterall the guy is a very smart QB his contribution the success of the Pats was no less important then anyone elses, it's more of a testement to BB and the system he installed.

"Brady wins becuase of the coach, system he plays in, the defense he's had, etc."

It's really a myopic argument because it takes away from the quality of play of the QB himself. However, it's a tough argument to refute. The only way to put this point of view to rest is to have access to gamefilm and scout all the QBs on a comparative basis. KC Joyner has does this every year and this is what he had to say about Brady in his book, Sceintific Football: 2005. BTW Joyner lives in Florida and grew up a Dolphins fan.

"There are four specific skills that Tom Brady has that separate him from the rest of the league. He has no fear in the pocket, he finds the open receiver, he's accurate with the pass and he doesn't make bad decisions. I can't tell you how few NFL quarterbacks have all four of these skills, and no NFL quarterback has all four in the abundance Tom Brady does. The benefits these traits offer are sometimes so subtle that they require additional emphasis.

"I've broken down nearly every New England game from the past two seasons, and I have yet to find a time when Brady felt the pass rush. What I mean by this is that Brady always maintains his downfield vision, even when the pocket is collapsing. He also has the same ability Joe Montana had in making the first pass rusher miss.

"He has an instinctive feel for where the pocket is. He can also adjust to the pocket's movement without having to take his eyes off of looking downfield, and he seems to almost always move with the pocket at just the right time. This is something so many quarterbacks are taught but so few can do well, and Brady is simply the best at it.

"Brady also finds the open receiver. That sounds simple enough, but Brady's pocket presence actually makes this trait even more valuable. Because Brady is so good at buying time in the pocket, and because he has such an intense focus on how the play is developing, he is able to look at third and fourth receivers more often than any other quarterback.

Dolphins fans are catching up. In the past, Jets fans make this same argument with Pennington and the Colts with Peyton.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Brady to Branch:

I know someone who can name 15 QBs that all have Joyner's four qualifications, IN ABUNDANCE!

 

[feelthepain]

Feel the pain:

That's it? That's all you got?

I told you, I want point by point in depth analysis about all 15 QBs and why they would achieve each goal I mentioned, from most superbowl completions, to longest win streak, to 10-1 in playoffs, to lead the league in touchdowns and yards, to most passes completed without an int. as a rookie, EVERYTHING. POINT BY POINT ANALYSIS to back up your claim. And I want you to explain how they would have done it with Brady's supporting cast, such as Dave Patten and Antowain Smith, a revolving door of castoff O-Linemen. I want to know for each season, why you believe each QB would have achieved the same things within the confines of the other 'skill' players on the team. And analyize the other factors, like Brady having a seperated throwing shoulder AND broken bursa sack in his throwing elbow for all of 2003, or leading the league in yards with a sports hernia last year. Project these injuries onto your other players, and why they would have lead the league in yards and won a superbowl under similiar circumstances.

And nice stats on Culpepper, but did you include the NFL record for fumbles, many of which came on his scrambles (which coaches have subsequently tried to limit)? I doubt he will scramble more and more as he ages, but it is okay with me because he normally turns over the ball.

If you check my prior posts, you will notice that I went out of my way to 'respect' Welker83 for not being a troll, but having valid points.

Go to the Fins site, claim you are a Pats fan, and announce that 15 QBs could have done what Marino did if they were only on that Dolphins team. See if you are treated like a troll.

I don't know what your issues are, but I have not posted anything that is a lie or exaggeration. I have posted the numbers of the two QB's, they are fact. You can talk about whatever individual numbers you like, thats your choice. I'm sure you'll find some nubers that support Brady and you'll find some numbers that support Culpepper. The point to the thread was just to give you a side by side look at the two QB's so you could see Culpeppers #'s are respectable.

Is it important for the division matchups that Culpepper has as good of #'s as the other QB's in the division?? I think thats what this thread is about. Talking about the teams in the divison for an "honest assesment of AFC east"!! When the Pats fans talk about why they will win the division"again" Brady is their main reason for that opinion!! So if Pat fans here are allowed to use Brady as a tool when determining the ability to not only compete, but win the division, why can't I talk about Culpepper as reason to do the same for Miami?? In order to do so I need to prove Culpepper is every bit the QB Brady is, why?? Because Pat fans won't take your word for it, therefore I need to prove it, thus the reason for the Brady/Culpepper post.


As for the post about the 15 QB's on that list above...."I told you" was in your first sentence. You don't tell me anything, you can ask me a question, but you don't tell me anything. The list of QB's that I put in the post was a list of very repectable QB's and any of those QB's would be more then capable of leading the Pats to the three SB wins. They are all Playoff QB's, they have all lead there teams to the playoffs, so I don't need to break down each QB explain anything, if you don't think they are capable of doing the Job then thats your opinion. I will add this though, if you don't think those QB's on the list I mention could lead the Pats to those three SB games then you don't respect the rest of the Pats team and coaching staff. You obviously think that all the Pats have done was Brady. If you believe that then you don't know much about the game of football much less your own team.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Well folks....I guess that's all he's got!

 

[feelthepain]

"Brady wins becuase of the coach, system he plays in, the defense he's had, etc."

It's really a myopic argument because it takes away from the quality of play of the QB himself. However, it's a tough argument to refute. The only way to put this point of view to rest is to have access to gamefilm and scout all the QBs on a comparative basis. KC Joyner has does this every year and this is what he had to say about Brady in his book, Sceintific Football: 2005. BTW Joyner lives in Florida and grew up a Dolphins fan.

Thats great, I agree Brady is a top QB in the NFL, I never said he wasn't. But there have been Many QB's in the NFL to lead their teams to multiple SB wins so Brady isn't doing anything so special that it can't be done by others. If the QB's on the list I mention just do what they are asked to do the Pats win because of the system the Pats ran during the 3 SB wins. It's not that hard to understand it's a system that wins, it's also why every year when the Pats lose some high quality players they just plug new players that don't seem to have the quality of the players they replace and keep winning.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Here's what SF: 2005 had to say about Duante after the 2004 season...

This offense wasn't quite as vertical in 2004 as it was in 2003. Duante only threw 95 deep passes, which sounds like a lot but you have to remember that includes the 2 playoff games (although it is missing the week 3 Chicago game), so it's over the course of 17 games.

The easy answers to why the Vikings weren't as vertical is because of the Randy Moss injury, but that's really not the case. I broke down the Vikings deep route distribution into games prior to the Moss injury, during Moss' and recovery, and after Moss was mostly recovered (which I measured as the Seattle week 14 game). Here are the numbers on a per game average basis:

Weeks 1, 2, & 5
Total Attemps (15)
Att/Game (5)

Weeks 6-13:
Total Attempts (37)
Att/Game (4.6)

Weeks 14-19:
Total Attempts (44)
Att/Game (7.3)

Weeks 14-19 were higher in large part due to getting into the week 17 shootout with Green Bay (8 deep passes thrown) and having to pass to catch up to Philly in the divisional playoff (11 deep passes thrown). Keep in mind that the Vikings opponents in weeks 14-19 were the Seahawks, Lions, Packers, Redskins, Packers, and Eagles. That's only two good secondaries in 6 games in you include the Redskins, but the Redskins weren't even playing most of their starters in the secondary due to injuries. Even if you prorated weeks 6-13 to the weeks 14-19 level, you'd still only add about 22 passes, and that's assuming the Vikings wouldn't keep up the pre-Moss injury deep passing pace.

The numbers don't just show Duante going deep less often. They also show that he wasn't very successful at throwing deep. Cullpepper ranked 25th in deep completion percentage, tied for 13th in deep yards per attempt, 18th in throwing into deep tight/good coverage, and 20th in accurate deep pass percentage. Worse than any of those were his deep bad decision percentages. He ranked 28th in deep bad decision percentage and 26th in weighted deep bad decision percentages.

You might ask how much of a role Moss had in those bad decisions. Duante made 9 bad decisions on deep passes and 5 of them went to Moss. Culpepper had only 3 deep bad decisions through week 13, and then made 5 of his 6 other bad decisions on deep passes to Moss in weeks 14, 15, and 19. I don't know if it was Moss trying to put pressure on Culpepper, or if Culpepper simply threw caution into the wind, but the bad decisions certainly increased with Moss' presence. On some of these plays Duante also stared at Moss and made no effort to fool the defense as to where he was going with the pass.

I may be reading into it, but I think it's possible Duante threw those passes to Moss out of spite. It looked sort of like "OK, you want the damn ball, I'll just stare right at you and throw it up for grabs. You say it doesn't matter if you are covered? OK, prove it!"

Moss' game-time influence on Duante might be like that of the bad apple in school who your kid hangs around. Your kid ends up getting in a bunch of trouble because he simply did what the bad apple wanted him to do, but you can't give your kid absolution on it. He knew he shouldn't be doing it and he did it anyway. Once the bad apple is removed from the equation, though, your kid will likely go back to being the honor role student. I'd bet that the Vikings are thinking the same thing will happen with Duante once Moss is out of the picture.

One other odd thing about Culpepper's stats was how good he was at medium and short passes. He ranked 6th in medium completion percentage and 5th in medium yards per attempt. His bad decision and weighted bad decision percentages for medium passes also improved to 12th and tied for 10th.

Culpepper was terrific on short passes. It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that Duante Culpepper was the best short pass QB in the entire league. He ranked 1st in short completion percentage and short yards per attempt, and 3rd in both short bad decision categories. A lot of that had to do with the emergence of Jermaine Wiggins as a short passing threat, but even if Culpepper had Fred Biletnikoff as a possession receiver, I wouldn't have expected his numbers to be as excellent as they were.

Maybe the Vikings release of Moss had has much to do with a realization about how good is Culpepper is as it was about Moss' attitude. The Vikings asked Duante to alter his game after Moss' injury and Duante proved his skills by excelling in the revised offense. If he stays as good on short passes and improves his deep pass percentages in Moss' absence, 2005 could be a MVP year for Duante.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Thats great, I agree Brady is a top QB in the NFL, I never said he wasn't. But there have been Many QB's in the NFL to lead their teams to multiple SB wins so Brady isn't doing anything so special that it can't be done by others. If the QB's on the list I mention just do what they are asked to do the Pats win because of the system the Pats ran during the 3 SB wins. It's not that hard to understand it's a system that wins, it's also why every year when the Pats lose some high quality players they just plug new players that don't seem to have the quality of the players they replace and keep winning.

OK, we've pinpointed the source of the argument. Brady's skills that separate him from other QBs are more due to indvidual talent rather than being in some system or reciving some type of coaching. In other words it's ingrained within him.

You say Weiss can make those qualities, I say Brady showed his talent in the January, 2000 Orange Bowl and in week 3 of 2001 when the Pats certainly were not expecting Brady to start for them so soon after Bledsoe went down.

 

[feelthepain]

Here's what SF: 2005 had to say about Duante after the 2004 season...




Maybe the Vikings release of Moss had has much to do with a realization about how good is Culpepper is as it was about Moss' attitude. The Vikings asked Duante to alter his game after Moss' injury and Duante proved his skills by excelling in the revised offense. If he stays as good on short passes and improves his deep pass percentages in Moss' absence, 2005 could be a MVP year for Duante.

Speaks volumes about Culpeppers ability to adjust. Culpepper is a huge upgrade for the Fins. Remember in Saban system much like BB it's not about just one guy, it's a team effort so if Culpepper doesn't have a great game it wont hurt the overall performance of the team. Also remember that Culpepper lost Moss, Scott Linehan, his Center who he had since he started in the NFL and Culpepper had to learn a whole new system and style of play in 05. The results of the first few games shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone because it's an adjustmen period. Culpepper will be going into a much more stable system in Miami.

 

[feelthepain]

OK, we've pinpointed the source of the argument. Brady's skills that separate him from other QBs are more due to indvidual talent rather than being in some system or reciving some type of coaching. In other words it's ingrained within him.

You say Weiss can make those qualities, I say Brady showed his talent in the January, 2000 Orange Bowl and in week 3 of 2001 when the Pats certainly were not expecting Brady to start for them so soon after Bledsoe went down.

Again, I agree Brady is a top QB in the league, no one is saying he isn't. But you still refuse to accept what the system and team around him have done together to win 3 SB's. Do you honestly think Brady could have lead any other team to 3 SB in 4 years?? Come on now, lets stop with the nonesense. Brady is a very good QB but do you think he is good enough to win a SB with the 49ers last year?? Or how about the the Saints?? Brady is a key part to the machine in NE, but he's not the only reason the Pats win 3 SB's in 4 years.

 

[PF1996]

Feelin the pain

Some advice...take a look at the Minnesota offensive system and compare it to the Patriots offensive system. Also, take a look at Culpepper's numbers when he lacked elite/very productive offensive teammates and/or faced decent defenses.


For anyone who has watched Culpepper play, his statistics are shocking. I say this because from watching Culpepper play, it's fairly obvious that he's not an elite quarterback. Thus, one asks, how in the world does he have the statistics he does? The answer is fairly simple. Culpepper had the benefit of several things...a Hall of Fame wide receiver, physically skilled (for the type of offense the Vikings ran) secondary receivers, a very good-elite running game, very good offensive line production AND the advantage of playing in the NFC where he faced on average, BELOW AVERAGE defenses.

The fact that Culpepper's statistics were primarily due to the offensive system and offensive players the Vikings had during his team there is further illustrated by the predictable decline in his performance whenever the Vikings lacked one of those pieces or he faced decent defenses. Culpepper's inconsistent performance is further evidence that he is not an elite QB. He posted a 98 rating in 2000, then declined to 83.5 (Carter's diminished production), then 73.5 (better defenses, no established second receiver), then 96.0, then 110.7, then 72.0. Despite having better offensive talent in ALL of those seasons than Brady had, Culpepper only had good QB production in 50% of his seasons. Contrast his almost 30 pt decline in QB rating in 2005 to Brady's less than 1 pt decline despite the Vikings running game producing at a better clip than the Patriots, and you will understand very quickly that Culpepper could not have taken the Patriots to ANY Superbowl with the teams Brady took.

Culpepper is certainly better than barely 50% Ferrote...but so are most other qbs in the league. Miami certainly upgraded their QB spot but it's laughable to suggest that the upgrade makes them even or about even with the Patriots.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Speaks volumes about Culpeppers ability to adjust. Culpepper is a huge upgrade for the Fins. Remember in Saban system much like BB it's not about just one guy, it's a team effort so if Culpepper doesn't have a great game it wont hurt the overall performance of the team. Also remember that Culpepper lost Moss, Scott Linehan, his Center who he had since he started in the NFL and Culpepper had to learn a whole new system and style of play in 05. The results of the first few games shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone because it's an adjustmen period. Culpepper will be going into a much more stable system in Miami.

That's not exactly true. Culpepper would benefit in short passing scheme. Back in Spetember, Joyner had an early season ESPN Insider article about how the Vikings were abandoning the short pass and were frequently going deep. Duante and the Vikings struggled as a result.

However, I agree that Duante is an upgrade, but looking at Miami WR metrics from 2004, I noticed that they were terrible in short/medium pass levels. I'll be getting SF: 2006 in the mail next month so I'll see what Joyner has to say about 2005.

Booker
Short Att: T-18th
Short c%: 80th
Short Tight/Good Coverage%: 62nd

Medium Att: 16th
Medium c%: T-46th
Medium Tight/Good Coverage%: T-50th

Chambers
Short Att: 4th
Short c%: 79th
Short Tight/Good Coverage%: T-48th

Medium Att: 25th
Medium c%: 70th
Medium Tight/Good Coverage%: 75th

McMichael (ranking among TEs):
Short Att: 3rd
Short c%: 20th
Short Tight/Good Coverage%: 24th

Medium Att: 15th
Medium c%: 18th
Medium Tight/Good Coverage%: 26th

The Pats, in 2004, ranked dead last in short pass attempts. The Pats have a risk/reward system that indicates that a short pass carries a high risk and low reward. The longer the pass, the higher the reward and the lower the risk. In 2004, the Pats got a great year out of Dillon so there was even less a need for short passes. If Ronnie Brown has a breakout season, then the Dolphins will likely be forced into throwing more deep passes. This is the area where Duante will have to prove himself.

 

[feelthepain]

That's not exactly true. Culpepper would benefit in short passing scheme. Back in Spetember, Joyner had an early season ESPN Insider article about how the Vikings were abandoning the short pass and were frequently going deep. Duante and the Vikings struggled as a result.

However, I agree that Duante is an upgrade, but looking at Miami WR metrics from 2004, I noticed that they were terrible in short/medium pass levels. I'll be getting SF: 2006 in the mail next month so I'll see what Joyner has to say about 2005.

Booker
Short Att: T-18th
Short c%: 80th
Short Tight/Good Coverage%: 62nd

Medium Att: 16th
Medium c%: T-46th
Medium Tight/Good Coverage%: T-50th

Chambers
Short Att: 4th
Short c%: 79th
Short Tight/Good Coverage%: T-48th

Medium Att: 25th
Medium c%: 70th
Medium Tight/Good Coverage%: 75th

McMichael (ranking among TEs):
Short Att: 3rd
Short c%: 20th
Short Tight/Good Coverage%: 24th

Medium Att: 15th
Medium c%: 18th
Medium Tight/Good Coverage%: 26th

The Pats, in 2004, ranked dead last in short pass attempts. The Pats have a risk/reward system that indicates that a short pass carries a high risk and low reward. The longer the pass, the higher the reward and the lower the risk. In 2004, the Pats got a great year out of Dillon so there was even less a need for short passes. If Ronnie Brown has a breakout season, then the Dolphins will likely be forced into throwing more deep passes. This is the area where Duante will have to prove himself.

Lets not forget, that everything in Miami was new, the QB the OC the schemes in both plays and blocking. You can't really look at anything in Miami and say it's difintive because they are not in a system long enough to develop a pattern. Miami needs a system in place that will remain in oreder to develop consistency, thats why Saban didn't change O schemes when MM was hired.

 

[feelthepain]

Some advice...take a look at the Minnesota offensive system and compare it to the Patriots offensive system. Also, take a look at Culpepper's numbers when he lacked elite/very productive offensive teammates and/or faced decent defenses.


For anyone who has watched Culpepper play, his statistics are shocking. I say this because from watching Culpepper play, it's fairly obvious that he's not an elite quarterback. Thus, one asks, how in the world does he have the statistics he does? The answer is fairly simple. Culpepper had the benefit of several things...a Hall of Fame wide receiver, physically skilled (for the type of offense the Vikings ran) secondary receivers, a very good-elite running game, very good offensive line production AND the advantage of playing in the NFC where he faced on average, BELOW AVERAGE defenses.

The fact that Culpepper's statistics were primarily due to the offensive system and offensive players the Vikings had during his team there is further illustrated by the predictable decline in his performance whenever the Vikings lacked one of those pieces or he faced decent defenses. Culpepper's inconsistent performance is further evidence that he is not an elite QB. He posted a 98 rating in 2000, then declined to 83.5 (Carter's diminished production), then 73.5 (better defenses, no established second receiver), then 96.0, then 110.7, then 72.0. Despite having better offensive talent in ALL of those seasons than Brady had, Culpepper only had good QB production in 50% of his seasons. Contrast his almost 30 pt decline in QB rating in 2005 to Brady's less than 1 pt decline despite the Vikings running game producing at a better clip than the Patriots, and you will understand very quickly that Culpepper could not have taken the Patriots to ANY Superbowl with the teams Brady took.

Culpepper is certainly better than barely 50% Ferrote...but so are most other qbs in the league. Miami certainly upgraded their QB spot but it's laughable to suggest that the upgrade makes them even or about even with the Patriots.

I would like to add you have to take what a teams D does during a season has a big effect on what an O does in a season. In other words if a team has D that give up lots of points, then that teams O is always playing from behind. Therefore your O plays change, you are no longer allowed to run a balanced attack because more often then not you are playing catchup. In 2004 Dauntes best season as a pro QB he had a horrible D. The team finished 8-8, but still made the playoffs. Daunte had 39 TD's and 11 int's he was just shy of having an MVP season. He played that season with a D that was ranked 27th overall. That has a huge effect on what an O has to do to keep up. Whens the last time Brady played on a team in the NFL that had a D ranked outside the top 10??

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Thats great, I agree Brady is a top QB in the NFL, I never said he wasn't. But there have been Many QB's in the NFL to lead their teams to multiple SB wins so Brady isn't doing anything so special that it can't be done by others. .

Brady is not just 'a top QB in the NFL'. He is one of the top QB's of ALL TIME in the NFL. There is a difference. Want proof.
Some historical perspective. Look at these great QB's of ALL time: Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Bob Griese, Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway. Hall of Famers. What do they have in common ? All are Super Bowl winners and NONE of them have won as many Super Bowls as Brady. NONE! Some pretty fantastic teams they played on as well if you were lucky enough to have seen them play (Bart Starr and his Packers was before my time sadly). It is alittle sad that you are watching a future HOF before your eyes and you can't even realize it. I never liked Aikman, and especially not Bradshaw. But I did recognize they were future HOF and I certainly respected them and their accomplishments. Comparing a certain future HOF to a playoff .500 QB is a tad bit insulting. Wake up and smell the coffee. Enjoy and respect excellence. If you can't tell the difference between a 'top QB' and a future HOF'er - I pity you.

 

[feelthepain]

Brady is not just 'a top QB in the NFL'. He is one of the top QB's of ALL TIME in the NFL. There is a difference. Want proof.
Some historical perspective. Look at these great QB's of ALL time: Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Bob Griese, Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway. Hall of Famers. What do they have in common ? All are Super Bowl winners and NONE of them have won as many Super Bowls as Brady. NONE! Some pretty fantastic teams they played on as well if you were lucky enough to have seen them play (Bart Starr and his Packers was before my time sadly). It is alittle sad that you are watching a future HOF before your eyes and you can't even realize it. I never liked Aikman, and especially not Bradshaw. But I did recognize they were future HOF and I certainly respected them and their accomplishments. Comparing a certain future HOF to a playoff .500 QB is a tad bit insulting. Wake up and smell the coffee. Enjoy and respect excellence. If you can't tell the difference between a 'top QB' and a future HOF'er - I pity you.

What else do all of those QB's have in common?? They all had a balanced team around them, teams that not only could score but they had teams with D's that could dominate. Therefore making the QB's job much eaiser.

It is alittle sad that you are watching a future HOF before your eyes and you can't even realize it.

*sigh*....when did I ever say anything to take away from or disrepect what Bradys done?? Please don't make things up to start trouble.